Who cares about the karma system?

[Vex Hilarius]

One thing that people say is a reason why f4 sucks is because theres no karma. but to me karma wasnt even that important in any of the other games. I cant even recall there being a huge use to it in f1/f2 and f3's karma really only affected companions. Like i dont need a meter saying how good or bad i am. I'm not talking about being good or evil, im just saying the "system" wasnt that useful.

So looking into it, i feel like people think having no karma is a bad thing but i think its more of there was nothing to replace it. in f2 and nv you had reputations which was more important than karma. If f4 actually replaced karma with something else im sure nobody would be saying "i miss the karma system".

Just my two cents. This game has pissed me off with alot of its changes no doubt but getting rid of the karma system wasnt much of an issue to me.

[MortVent]

Well the worst part of the karma system was you could have no witnesses to your deeds, and still had bad karma being added.

IF nobody is around, how does the entire wasteland know I stole a couple rounds of ammo from a footlocker

[Rez Elwin]

It is just another rpg element they removed. Fallout 4 has removed almost all sense of personal characters and that just takes more away from you. You can't really be "Evil" in the game without a DLC. Even then it barely effects the game because settlements don't have any impact on the game world. You get two choices most of the time, "I'll help you out of the good of my heart" or "Pay me and I'll help" Being a merc isn't being bad just pragmatic. Especially when you ask for money it isn't extortion its negotiation.

[MortVent]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

It is just another rpg element they removed. Fallout 4 has removed almost all sense of personal characters and that just takes more away from you. You can't really be "Evil" in the game without a DLC. Even then it barely effects the game because settlements don't have any impact on the game world. You get two choices most of the time, "I'll help you out of the good of my heart" or "Pay me and I'll help" Being a merc isn't being bad just pragmatic. Especially when you ask for money it isn't extortion its negotiation.

Funny, I distinctly remember killing the settlers are the various settlements just so I didn't have to worry about the quests there. As well as quite a few evil options, especially if you go institute rather than minutemen.

Karma is not a role playing mechanic that matters, as you got some mystical spy letting the entire wasteland know what you are doing.

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by MortVent:

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

It is just another rpg element they removed. Fallout 4 has removed almost all sense of personal characters and that just takes more away from you. You can't really be "Evil" in the game without a DLC. Even then it barely effects the game because settlements don't have any impact on the game world. You get two choices most of the time, "I'll help you out of the good of my heart" or "Pay me and I'll help" Being a merc isn't being bad just pragmatic. Especially when you ask for money it isn't extortion its negotiation.

Funny, I distinctly remember killing the settlers are the various settlements just so I didn't have to worry about the quests there. As well as quite a few evil options, especially if you go institute rather than minutemen.

Karma is not a role playing mechanic that matters, as you got some mystical spy letting the entire wasteland know what you are doing.

But there is no consequence for doing good or evil options, you become leader of the Institut i'd expect people to try and kill you on site, but nope nobody cares, no one even mentions is beyond companions. While karma might not be all that important still no reason to remove it. Like I said another removal of personalization of a character. What they should have done is keep the faction reputation from NV, and earlier Fallouts.

[Kiloton]

Binary morality systems are stupid. All it takes to become a saint is to not steal and not strike first. NV mostly ignored it and had repution with individual factions instead, which was much more sensible.

[MortVent]

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

Originally posted by MortVent:

Funny, I distinctly remember killing the settlers are the various settlements just so I didn't have to worry about the quests there. As well as quite a few evil options, especially if you go institute rather than minutemen.

Karma is not a role playing mechanic that matters, as you got some mystical spy letting the entire wasteland know what you are doing.

But there is no consequence for doing good or evil options, you become leader of the Institut i'd expect people to try and kill you on site, but nope nobody cares, no one even mentions is beyond companions. While karma might not be all that important still no reason to remove it. Like I said another removal of personalization of a character. What they should have done is keep the faction reputation from NV, and earlier Fallouts.

Most people don't know you're the leader of the faction. The companions might hate you for it, and some do turn hostile.

But the average joe doesn't have mystical telepathic insight in your actions on the other side of the wasteland.

There are no consequences other than locked out quests, rewards, etc. The wasteland isn't mother goose fairy land where things are black and white. Often in the wasteland they respect the powerful, simply because they get things done.

Take Hancock for instance, he's morally grey in his outlook and deeds. But he is well respected anyway if not idolized for being a bad person doing some good.

[raubrey]

Originally posted by MortVent:

Well the worst part of the karma system was you could have no witnesses to your deeds, and still had bad karma being added.

IF nobody is around, how does the entire wasteland know I stole a couple rounds of ammo from a footlocker

Oh my Zeus, THIS! Arrrrgggh.

I did feel something was missing though, a major guilt trip.

[WarMachine]

Not a fan of the karma system myself. Seemed to give an arbitrary good and bad system when most of the wastelend isn't a place of morals, it's survival. It was ment to be an external system that NPCs could see, the game used to much internal data, stuff that wasn't public.

But in fairness, none of the other games really adds a decent moral system either. FO4 is ok, only really a faction system, but otherwise not too much consequences. I kinda miss the dog putting a hit on me in skyrim for Looking at him wrong.

[Simpson3k]

Dont know about the karma system but... what definity sucks is... that people in my settlement, those i gave a roof over their *uc*ing heads, those i feed, those i protect, accuse me of being a synth, hope i am not after them, hoping i dont cause trouble... bla bla.

So they probably should have keeped some of the karma system in the code...

[Rez Elwin]

Originally posted by MortVent:

Originally posted by Rez Elwin:

But there is no consequence for doing good or evil options, you become leader of the Institut i'd expect people to try and kill you on site, but nope nobody cares, no one even mentions is beyond companions. While karma might not be all that important still no reason to remove it. Like I said another removal of personalization of a character. What they should have done is keep the faction reputation from NV, and earlier Fallouts.

Most people don't know you're the leader of the faction. The companions might hate you for it, and some do turn hostile.

But the average joe doesn't have mystical telepathic insight in your actions on the other side of the wasteland.

There are no consequences other than locked out quests, rewards, etc. The wasteland isn't mother goose fairy land where things are black and white. Often in the wasteland they respect the powerful, simply because they get things done.

Take Hancock for instance, he's morally grey in his outlook and deeds. But he is well respected anyway if not idolized for being a bad person doing some good.

Except all your companions know even the ones not yet/never recruited, so word had to have gotten out. There are no consequences because there is no Karma, in Fo3 you got hunted and attacked by two opposing factions dependant on alignment. And in NV reputation was actually important way more than Karma was.

[Simpson3k]

Originally posted by MortVent:

Well the worst part of the karma system was you could have no witnesses to your deeds, and still had bad karma being added.

IF nobody is around, how does the entire wasteland know I stole a couple rounds of ammo from a footlocker

Uhm you are aware that karma is more destiny and not a reputation system. What you talk about is justice and not karma.

Even somebody who kills thousands of ants with a magnifying glass wich is no crime in any law as long as ants arent a species threated to die out, can hit by karma for it.. stumbling over his feet, fall onto his nose and miss the chance to reach a boat to safty on the sinking ship..

[MortVent]

Originally posted by Simpson3k:

Originally posted by MortVent:

Well the worst part of the karma system was you could have no witnesses to your deeds, and still had bad karma being added.

IF nobody is around, how does the entire wasteland know I stole a couple rounds of ammo from a footlocker

Uhm you are aware that karma is more destiny and not a reputation system. What you talk about is justice and not karma.

Even somebody who kills thousands of ants with a magnifying glass wich is no crime in any law as long as ants arent a species threated to die out, can hit by karma for it.. stumbling over his feet, fall onto his nose and miss the chance to reach a boat to safty on the sinking ship..

And yet the entire wasteland treats you as scum, for having the bad karma...

[Simpson3k]

Originally posted by MortVent:

Originally posted by Simpson3k:

Uhm you are aware that karma is more destiny and not a reputation system. What you talk about is justice and not karma.

Even somebody who kills thousands of ants with a magnifying glass wich is no crime in any law as long as ants arent a species threated to die out, can hit by karma for it.. stumbling over his feet, fall onto his nose and miss the chance to reach a boat to safty on the sinking ship..

And yet the entire wasteland treats you as scum, for having the bad karma...

Yeah, reputation and karma should have been seperated.. reputation based on witnesses, karma based on actions only... the first spreads around and affects npc´s towards you, the later doesnt and only causes "bad luck" in times it really hurts ..

[DouglasGrave]

I think the general point of a karma system such as the one in earlier Fallout games is to simulate tracking of your general behaviour when the game itself can't handle it through direct observations.

Rather than working out if someone ever directly witnesses you committing a crime, noticed their goods were missing after you were the only one around, saw suspicious traces of blood on your hands, or one of innumerable other ways they might have associated you with evil acts (or good ones), which would be difficult to simulate, the game notes your actions directly, and adjusts the general attitude of society towards you on the assumption that your actions generally leave some trace and that word will get around.

It's essentially a way to approximate society's attitude towards your behaviour instead of simulating it. We see the downsides of trying to simulate it whenever the NPC behaviour lacks the intelligence to respond realistically (like ignoring stolen possessions if you took something when they glanced away for two seconds).

[raubrey]

I know what Karma is, but in a survival game and with that terrible sound and messaging for the slightest human fault is overly damning, pun intended. Sometimes you'd get nailed for doing something that wasn't bad per se, like breaking into a safe to find a clue for a murder.

Karma is a silent thing anyway, if you believe in it...until you get hit by truck or stub your toe.

I suppose something needed to be implemented to make theft less desirable and I did in fact miss it when I first played FO4. There's a psych phrase for that... loving what you hate ... (not Stockholm but close) but anyway, it was superimposed on other systems and it did to me feel like the whole of Nevada could see your every move, which made it too silly.

I also suppose I could come up with an alternative, but not now, it's late.