SEEKING DEFINITIONS OF MOD CATEGORIES

[Nothus]

Where do I begin? Well... we have Tweaks (I am assuming they're game changers but then who can tell?), Lighting which is somehow different to atmospherics (could that mean weather? ) and then there are Re-texturing mods, Sorting Mods, Mods that change Companion Models, Settlement changes and other tweaks... and what of those mods that affect two or more aspects of the game? so many of the posts I'm reading and being directed to are mere rehashes of someone else's take on things.. surely there can be only so many variations of the same answer but when those answers leave one with even more questions? So.. any takers?

[Chaosium]

Irrelevant, they only exist to sort things.

[Nothus]

Originally posted by Chaosium:

Irrelevant, they only exist to sort things.

That doesn't really help... but thanks for playing all the same.

[Chef]

Chaosium is correct though. I believe that categories only wind up leading people to put mods in the wrong spot. Unless your using categories for something completely outside mod management, in which case you should specify what your doing.

[Nothus]

Fair enough Chef.. I'll endeavour to specify as best as I can...

What I am seeking is a clear definition of what Mods fall into or can be grouped into the various categories of Mods. Is there an actual list of mods that clearly indicates which family or group of Mods it belongs to... and clearly mind you, not vaguely but actually spelt out for the tech-not-so-savvy subgenius's in the room.

As things are, one mod is a texturing mod and therefore belongs at this point of the load order or this mod is a menu re-organising mod and so belongs at that point of the load order. At the same time there many singular mods that seem to affect the game they apply to in more than one aspect or their authors claim to have produced a mod that covers a series of effects into mod that previously created separate mods did individually.

At what point does a one mod cease being a Menu re-organiser and become an item adder when it's not posing as a re-texturing mod with it's own soundtrack?

[craigsters]

here is how i organize my fallout 4 nexus mods folder and I use nexus example of mod category's see imgur link https://imgur.com/g0kQIh2

[Chef]

I have found no list like that.

If you look in LOOT there are "Groups" (go to the 3 vertical dots in the upper right hand corner and select the Group Editor, not sure what it's called, I'm on my phone, but it's obvious) and you can see the groups it has setup there.

The only foolproof way to do what you want is to open everything in FO4Edit and look at the changes it makes. However, it should be noted that sorting by what a mod does (adds a weapon or a player home for instance) does not always work. This is because of how the engine works. If, for instance you are using a mod that adds a weapon to a spot in the open world, and one that adds a player home, you may need to place one of those mods way away from the others in it's group. This is because both of those mods affect the Worldspace. The records for the local Worldspace need to be included in each mod and will conflict with each other and can usually only be resovled by looking at things in FO4Edit and possibly making your own patch.

This is why I do not like sorting by category. Because while it may make sense to our brains, it does not make sense to how the game engine loads things.

If anything I said above is unclear or doesn't make sense, please let me know. I haven't had breakfast yet.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Nothus:

Fair enough Chef.. I'll endeavour to specify as best as I can...

What I am seeking is a clear definition of what Mods fall into or can be grouped into the various categories of Mods. Is there an actual list of mods that clearly indicates which family or group of Mods it belongs to... and clearly mind you, not vaguely but actually spelt out for the tech-not-so-savvy subgenius's in the room.

As things are, one mod is a texturing mod and therefore belongs at this point of the load order or this mod is a menu re-organising mod and so belongs at that point of the load order. At the same time there many singular mods that seem to affect the game they apply to in more than one aspect or their authors claim to have produced a mod that covers a series of effects into mod that previously created separate mods did individually.

At what point does a one mod cease being a Menu re-organiser and become an item adder when it's not posing as a re-texturing mod with it's own soundtrack?

There are no clear definitions. There never have been. Its not hard. Just look at the mods in each category and you'll get a rough idea of the 'definition' of that category.

And there is no particular spot in a load order that any category of mod should go in.

1. Some mods make edits to the same item or space. The mod that is lower in the load order 'wins' - ie, its changes will overwrite the other mod's changes. Which one should win depends on which one *you* want to win. Which change do you want.

2. Other mods that say 'put me high in the load order' are generally mods that make large, sweeping changes to that gameworld. Then you put mods that make specific changes to specific part below that mod in order to not have the big mod overwrite the small one.

3. Mods that say 'put me in the bottom' are ones that tend to have problems with any part being overwritten. These need to be placed low to ensure that the likelyhood of another mod changing something in it will be minimized.

But there are not hard and fast 'this is they way it should be' rules here. To do the job properly you need to open every mod, look at everything it changes, and compare it to all your other mods, and work out how to minimize conflicts and overwrites.

And even then you'll still have problems. Modding is art, not engineering.

[Avrie]

Are you talking about the categories on the Nexus, or the ones you can add to your manager as a tool as in MO2? If you're talking about the Nexus; those are chosen by the author and may not reflect everything the mod touches ... it isn't easy sometimes.

If you're talking about the categories in MO2, I love the feature. It allows even more flexibility when sorting mods for Installation Order Vs. Load Order. It acts like a user assignable index column. But even there I usually erase the contents of the existing .DAT file and write my own.

[nobody willsee this video right?]

the impossible solution would be a description that gives enough information for an amateur to figure out whats going on with the use of google for technical terms used.

so if it's impossible, why do i mention it.
as a goal maybe?

i used to hack out some fair code a long time ago.
i could program in 8080 machine language and 6502 machine language in a hex editor and without a quick reference card.
and that was not my job, but my hobby.
those days are long past.

we are so far off the silicon with modern languages that most high level, high payed programmers don't know a lick of machine code.
and that's not a compliant on my part, but rather to say how far we have come in the short time since the '70's.

how ever [always with the pesky however] we still have the same problem as back when COBOL was new.

that problem is documentation.
descriptions of what is doing what to what.

so how does this rambling semi-coherent wall of text apply to the OP?

i want people to be creative and do new things.
i don't want them burdened with writing a major novel about the thing they are creating.
imagine the art we would be missing if the paintings, "starry night" for example, was required to have an explanation before being displayed.

yes i agree i would like to see some form of understandable categorization for mods.
but some very important parts, like incompatibility with other mods and load order will not be clear till after the mod is released into the wild.

anyway, i've rambled enough, it's 6pm here and time for breakfast.
since i was waiting for it to bake in the oven i though i would read some of the forum, and did not intend to post.

[Joe Coffee]

Originally posted by Nothus:

Where do I begin? Well... we have Tweaks (I am assuming they're game changers but then who can tell?), Lighting which is somehow different to atmospherics (could that mean weather? ) and then there are Re-texturing mods, Sorting Mods, Mods that change Companion Models, Settlement changes and other tweaks... and what of those mods that affect two or more aspects of the game? so many of the posts I'm reading and being directed to are mere rehashes of someone else's take on things.. surely there can be only so many variations of the same answer but when those answers leave one with even more questions? So.. any takers?

I don't understand your complaint. Mods ARE game changers. Are you failing to read mod descriptions thoroughly? The authors tell you what the mod does, generally. Most of the time, the specific mod you're looking for should be labeled a tweak or something, but if you just can't get past it all, then just remove the mods and go back to vanilla.

Simple, IKR? ...or maybe not.

[DrNewcenstein]

Strict categorization would allow users to sort through a specific category and only see those mods that fit into the given category. As it is now, you're just as likely to find the same mod listed as "gameplay change" and at least one other category simply because the author sees it as something that alters the vanilla gameplay, even when it technically doesn't.

Gameplay changes would be something that directly alters how the player interacts with the game world i.e. putting Fallout 4-style chest looting into Skyrim so you don't have to actually open the chest. Changing a texture or an Imagespace or adding a player home have no direct effect in that manner, even if the Imagespace was darkened to make a given location seem more ominous. It's not a direct change to the gameplay, but a change in perception.

What's needed on Nexus is a clear description of each category, and clear guidelines as to which category authors should put their mods.

Authors should also refrain from making mods that do several different things, so that users can mix and match mods to their liking. It's ambitious and admirable to put better loot, tougher bosses, and more-detailed AI packages for NPCs into one mod, but frankly, the chances are very high someone else did one of those things better than you did, but you did one thing better than anyone else ("better" being totally subjective). Users need to have the flexibility to mix and match, and not have to suffer with 2 poor implementations to get the one good implementation.

There's a little too much self-esteem going around. Break down your multi-function mods into separate mods and let users bash them together if load order space is getting tight.

If someone is only looking for weapon mods, they should be able to sort through only weapon mods, and not companion mods that also change something about a single weapon, texture replacers for the dog, or yet another shiny-lipped doe-eyed knock-kneed Anime-inspired underage hentai waifu with a pair of zero-gravity double-Ds falling out of a gothic lolita corset, with stiletto platforms, a black leather tutu with pink panda panties, and a 60mm tank turret in each hand.

As for which mods should go where, I seem to recall a Nexus discussion being copied over to the Bethesda forums that covered that issue, so that everyone could have some basic guidelines.
I don't recall the exact details, but it covered everything, with examples of which type of mod should go where in the load order. Mod category number prefixes were drawn up and authors were asked to use those number ranges as prefixes for their mods, followed by whatever naming convention the author wanted i.e. 124-DrN_CompanionPerks, 102-dDNoSpinningDeathAnimation, etc. That way mods were automatically sorted by their numeric prefix and not alphabetically, and, for the most part, would not have to be tweaked by users.
While any two mods from two authors could have the same number prefix, the odds they'd have the same number prefix and name were relatively low (i.e. you couldn't have 2 mods named 124-DrN_CompanionPerks).

You can call modding an "art" all day long, but mod authors are going to have to take the extra time to be responsible in how they operate and how they categorize their works. So sorry not sorry if it cuts into their "here I go, being an artiste" time, but boo-effing-hoo.

[nobody willsee this video right?]

Originally posted by DrNewcenstein:

There's a little too much self-esteem going around. Break down your multi-function mods into separate mods and let users bash them together if load order space is getting tight.

If someone is only looking for weapon mods, they should be able to sort through only weapon mods, and not companion mods that also change something about a single weapon, texture replacers for the dog, or yet another shiny-lipped doe-eyed knock-kneed Anime-inspired underage hentai waifu with a pair of zero-gravity double-Ds falling out of a gothic lolita corset, with stiletto platforms, a black leather tutu with pink panda panties, and a 60mm tank turret in each hand.

i agree, this is a good point with too many things in a mod.

Originally posted by DrNewcenstein:

As for which mods should go where, I seem to recall a Nexus discussion being copied over to the Bethesda forums that covered that issue, so that everyone could have some basic guidelines.
I don't recall the exact details, but it covered everything, with examples of which type of mod should go where in the load order. Mod category number prefixes were drawn up and authors were asked to use those number ranges as prefixes for their mods, followed by whatever naming convention the author wanted i.e. 124-DrN_CompanionPerks, 102-dDNoSpinningDeathAnimation, etc. That way mods were automatically sorted by their numeric prefix and not alphabetically, and, for the most part, would not have to be tweaked by users.
While any two mods from two authors could have the same number prefix, the odds they'd have the same number prefix and name were relatively low (i.e. you couldn't have 2 mods named 124-DrN_CompanionPerks).

yes file naming conventions that people adhere too, even if it's only keeping naming consistent within their own set of files and their updates.

Originally posted by DrNewcenstein:

You can call modding an "art" all day long, but mod authors are going to have to take the extra time to be responsible in how they operate and how they categorize their works. So sorry not sorry if it cuts into their "here I go, being an artiste" time, but boo-effing-hoo.

you're being a bit harsh here.
and even insulting.
if writing a poem or music is an art, programming is an art.
programming is an art.

documenting is an art, and many people that are very good at programming are not talented at describing the workings of the program they wrote for human understanding.
one is writing for machine understanding, and the other kind of writing is for human understanding.

[Patchup]

If you want your mod to be used more, it helps to be tagged correctly. I think many authors have "solved" this by using multiple tags. Mods can cross catagories. The larger ones often do. But it still needs to be described well enough to explain what it does and does not do.
I suggest getting your spouse or friend to translate geek speak into human language. With that being said, all my respect and appreciation to the people that write the programs.

[nobody willsee this video right?]

Originally posted by Patchup:

If you want your mod to be used more, it helps to be tagged correctly. I think many authors have "solved" this by using multiple tags. Mods can cross catagories. The larger ones often do. But it still needs to be described well enough to explain what it does and does not do.
I suggest getting your spouse or friend to translate geek speak into human language. With that being said, all my respect and appreciation to the people that write the programs.

well said.