Far Harbor Major Spoilers Would you forgive him?

[Jimmy Lander]

This post is going to spoil the entire dlc so be aware.

Would you forgive Dima for murdering and replacing captain Avery? I feel like it's forgivable, although mere moments after showing remorse he suggest replacing Tektus and sacrificing another synth for the replacement. Additionally this conflict does not involve him and Acadia isn't endangered. He willingly intervenes in a conflict he is not affected by by asking you to kill and replace Tektus, which although is the solution resulting in the least amount of casualties, is morally corrupt since it reveals that Dima does not truly learn from his past mistakes and is willing to repeat them, basically manipulating people towards his own vision through deceit .

On the other hand if you destroy the evidence and keep his secret, Dima gives you his word that everything he does from this point forward will be to atone for his crime. In the end, after careful analysis, it turns out DiMa is just someone who is strongly compassionate and wishes everyone to be happy, and for him this will be the only way to achieve this goal. Is this the best course of action for the island tho?

[Oparator Stalker]

I don't have this DLC, but it's on my WISH LIST!!! So your post has no effect on me in regards to spoil. How ever I would have to wait to see how it gose to make such a choice, after all, I did put one in Danse's head...

[Jimmy Lander]

Originally posted by warcatt00:

I don't have this DLC, but it's on my WISH LIST!!! So your post has no effect on me in regards to spoil. How ever I would have to wait to see how it gose to make such a choice, after all, I did put one in Danse's head...

Shouldn't hvae read it, the DLC is really good, it's best if you forget everything mentioned and experience it wwithout spoilers

[damesh2]

I see your point. I went with DIMA on this because Tektus was a religious fanatic and wanted war to wipe out both Acadia and Far Harbor. Also, it was highly probable he killed Martin to take over and the friend of the girl (don't remember her name) that you had to check on to see if she was loyal, because they had doubts about Tektus. Hopefully I remembered that correctly.

[Jimmy Lander]

Originally posted by damesh2:

I see your point. I went with DIMA on this because Tektus was a religious fanatic and wanted war to wipe out both Acadia and Far Harbor. Also, it was highly probable he killed Martin to take over and the friend of the girl (don't remember her name) that you had to check on to see if she was loyal, because they had doubts about Tektus. Hopefully I remembered that correctly.

My problem with this isn't killing Tektus, but influencing The CoA through deceit. They are not aware that Tektus is replaced, and although this results in almost no casualties, it's still taking 2 lives and resorting to straight up manipulation, basically playing the Institute. It's scary to think that DiMA, someone who escaped the Institute and created a refuge for synths would acquire the same methods of that very faction. I do think that overtime though, he will truly see the error of his way, as he seems to be someone who constantly looks for ways to improve.

[lordoftheapes79]

Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few? Is it fair to sacrifice one life to save 100?

While alot of the dialog in this game isn't on par with the scale of the decisions, they do a good job of making you think about it.

Unless you're just going for stat nerfs and choosing the outcome based on the perk you get(or don't), there isn't a strait answer. You're just going to have to make your choice and live with the consequences.

[Solomon Hawk]

In one rare playthough, I got the launch key and set off the nuke in the sub. That was the end of the CoA on Far Harbor. I gave them the division they sought. Other NPC characters would have prefered I not took that drastic measure. My reason for taking that drastic measure was understanding the history of Far Harbor before the CoA showed up. Avery was still the real Avery and her elimination / replacement is what provoked my decision.

But most times, I roll for a peaceful ending. (you need high charisma or some good grape mentats handy). Once you recover the "Mother of the Fog" and present it to Tektus, he says only Atom's chosen are blessed with the vision of The Mother of the Fog and have a special purpose. With high charisma, you don't have to kill Tektus. He gets to live and has a change of heart. Proclaiming: he had a vision from Atom and that Atom demands peace
and tells you privately that you were standing next to Atom (confessing that you were Atom's Chosen).

With high charisma, you can accomplish things that would otherwise be impossible.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Jimmy Lander:

This post is going to spoil the entire dlc so be aware.

Would you forgive Dima for murdering and replacing captain Avery? I feel like it's forgivable, although mere moments after showing remorse he suggest replacing Tektus and sacrificing another synth for the replacement. Additionally this conflict does not involve him and Acadia isn't endangered. He willingly intervenes in a conflict he is not affected by by asking you to kill and replace Tektus, which although is the solution resulting in the least amount of casualties, is morally corrupt since it reveals that Dima does not truly learn from his past mistakes and is willing to repeat them, basically manipulating people towards his own vision through deceit .

On the other hand if you destroy the evidence and keep his secret, Dima gives you his word that everything he does from this point forward will be to atone for his crime. All this leads me to think he is a conflicted character, who in the end still does not see replacing people as an unforgivable thing to do.

I don't think DiMA forgives himself for doing it (he doesn't even forgive himself for thinking up certain plans), but he does it anyway because the alternative is to hurt more people (or allow them to be hurt).

His trouble is his empathy, because he can't bear to see any of the people suffering without trying to help because he feels for their plight, but trying to help everyone ends up punishing him with sacrifices, and he has empathy for them as well, which is why he can't even bear keeping his memories. He could just sit by and watch the two opposing factions destroy each other (or at least watch the Children of Atom kill off the Harbourmen, which is the likely outcome if they fought), but it wouldn't exactly be the right thing to do.

If there's any moral corruption in him, I think it comes not from the manipulation itself, but from his alterations to his memory, since those undermine his relationship to his actions. Once they resurface through the Sole Survivor's actions, he seems prepared to live with them, however.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Solomon Hawk:

In one rare playthough, I got the launch key and set off the nuke in the sub. That was the end of the CoA on Far Harbor. I gave them the division they sought. Other NPC characters would have prefered I not took that drastic measure. My reason for taking that drastic measure was understanding the history of Far Harbor before the CoA showed up. Avery was still the real Avery and her elimination / replacement is what provoked my decision

The Children of Atom weren't responsible for Avery's replacement, and if anyone's in the wrong in the whole mess (apart from DiMA specifically for replacing Avery), it's the Harbourmen for murdering members of the Children of Atom who hadn't done anything to them except say things they didn't like. While they're willing to kill off all of Acadia in retaliation for Avery no-one calls for any justice over those murders; they don't give a damn about whether it's right or wrong.

I generally go with the peaceful option because I like keeping as many people as possible around, but the Harbourmen deserve what happens to them (if you shut down the fog condensors ) with the way they behave.

[Solomon Hawk]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by Solomon Hawk:

In one rare playthough, I got the launch key and set off the nuke in the sub. That was the end of the CoA on Far Harbor. I gave them the division they sought. Other NPC characters would have prefered I not took that drastic measure. My reason for taking that drastic measure was understanding the history of Far Harbor before the CoA showed up. Avery was still the real Avery and her elimination / replacement is what provoked my decision

The Children of Atom weren't responsible for Avery's replacement, and if anyone's in the wrong in the whole mess (apart from DiMA specifically for replacing Avery), it's the Harbourmen for murdering members of the Children of Atom who hadn't done anything to them except say things they didn't like. While they're willing to kill off all of Acadia in retaliation for Avery no-one calls for any justice over those murders; they don't give a damn about whether it's right or wrong.

I generally go with the peaceful option because I like keeping as many people as possible around, but the Harbourmen deserve what happens to them (if you shut down the fog condensors ) with the way they behave.

I don't disagree with you on that point Doug.
The Harbormen were driven from their homes by the fog long before the CoA ever showed up. (which incidentally the CoA had nothing to do with either).. it was an act of nature (given the circumstances).
But the Harbormen (as I understand it) are the original settlers long before DiMA ever showed up and engeineered a solution with the implementation of the fog condensers. I can appreciate that.
Far Harbor has always been their home and they really don't feel like going anywhere else.
They weren't giving up against the fog even when DiMA showed up, but they were fighting a losing battle.
So what does the CoA do? Move in as if it were given to them and try to assimilate the Harbormen. (Bad move). That's like Christians, Catholics, Jewish and Muslims going at it toe to toe to convert each other. (Remember the Crusades?)
Or liken it to the Europeans coming to the Americas to buy land (sold by the govenerment to pay the debt of the revolutionary war) which rightfully belonged to the Native Americans. Bad Move.

At best, a peaceful long term solution is best for everyone involved.
But I find the irony of DiMA's actions questionable at best.

[ianliew]

I couldn't disable the fog condensers... there are a few people in Far Harbour who I do like, and I really hate to see them die. One of them is going to die soon anyway, I guess, but I'd like to not cause her death so violently regardless. If there was a way to get some of the more aggressive ones out of the way... but oops, now I'm thinking like DiMA.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Solomon Hawk:

So what does the CoA do? Move in as if it were given to them and try to assimilate the Harbormen. (Bad move). That's like Christians, Catholics, Jewish and Muslims going at it toe to toe to convert each other. (Remember the Crusades?)

Mere preaching doesn't give other people the right to shoot you dead, and there's no indication that the Children did anything more than preach the word of Atom.

Originally posted by Solomon Hawk:

Or liken it to the Europeans coming to the Americas to buy land (sold by the govenerment to pay the debt of the revolutionary war) which rightfully belonged to the Native Americans. Bad Move.

So the Harbourmen should give the Island back to the Native Americans who were most likely the actual original settlers?

Originally posted by Solomon Hawk:

At best, a peaceful long term solution is best for everyone involved.
But I find the irony of DiMA's actions questionable at best.

I'd take DiMA's idea of what's necessary over that of anyone else in the game. He's even bothered by the sacrifice of individuals, while most other individuals and factions are happy to advocate wholesale death for their foes. The Children of Atom (on the Island) are unusually peaceful in that they haven't already tried to wipe out Far Harbour, despite having enough armed force to do so, and the Harbourmen having provoked them.

I like that DiMA stands by his decisions and that as much as he torments himself over them, he still wants the choice that helps the most people.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by ianliew:

I couldn't disable the fog condensers... there are a few people in Far Harbour who I do like, and I really hate to see them die. One of them is going to die soon anyway, I guess, but I'd like to not cause her death so violently regardless. If there was a way to get some of the more aggressive ones out of the way... but oops, now I'm thinking like DiMA.

The Mariner and Bertha are okay, though Bertha gets a bit of a pass since she has the reduced moral responsibility of a child (the others are adults, and thus fully responsible for their choice to hang around with people like Allen Lee).

[Jimmy Lander]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by Solomon Hawk:

In one rare playthough, I got the launch key and set off the nuke in the sub. That was the end of the CoA on Far Harbor. I gave them the division they sought. Other NPC characters would have prefered I not took that drastic measure. My reason for taking that drastic measure was understanding the history of Far Harbor before the CoA showed up. Avery was still the real Avery and her elimination / replacement is what provoked my decision

The Children of Atom weren't responsible for Avery's replacement, and if anyone's in the wrong in the whole mess (apart from DiMA specifically for replacing Avery), it's the Harbourmen for murdering members of the Children of Atom who hadn't done anything to them except say things they didn't like. While they're willing to kill off all of Acadia in retaliation for Avery no-one calls for any justice over those murders; they don't give a damn about whether it's right or wrong.

I generally go with the peaceful option because I like keeping as many people as possible around, but the Harbourmen deserve what happens to them (if you shut down the fog condensors ) with the way they behave.

In my eyes granting the CoA Division was the best solution. Shutting off Far Harbor’s condensors means killing off innocent people without their consent and without giving them the right to defend themselves, while replacing Tektus means manipulating people through deceit, which depending on your point of view might be worse than letting them kill each other off (by their own free will). Take into consideration it’s the CoA’s own choice to attack Far Harbor, so in a way it’s their own choice to sacrifice people. Despite being lead by Tektus, it’s still every person’s individual stance that matters. If some people are willing to stomach it even if they don’t agree with Tektus then they have to take responsibility.

Replacing Tektus is also a temporary solution. After Tektus gets replaced by the next High Confessor who’s to say things won’t happen again? The CoA are a cult meaning they will believe almost everything without much proof (like by being told something is part of “Arom’s plan”). They also seem to form their own little militia, and letting them grow might prove dangerous in the long run.

Granting them Division (granting implying they accept the nuking) is what they believe in and wether or not you convinced them to do it or not, if they end up accepting it it’s on their hands, by their own free will. Besides, if any of the members didn’t embrace division, they could always have escaped the Nucleus, so they were technically never refused an alternative.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Jimmy Lander:

In my eyes granting the CoA Division was the best solution. Shutting off Far Harbor’s condensors means killing off innocent people without their consent and without giving them the right to defend themselves, while replacing Tektus means manipulating people through deceit, which depending on your point of view might be worse than letting them kill each other off (by their own free will). Take into consideration it’s the CoA’s own choice to attack Far Harbor, so in a way it’s their own choice to sacrifice people. Despite being lead by Tektus, it’s still every person’s individual stance that matters. If some people are willing to stomach it even if they don’t agree with Tektus then they have to take responsibility.

The Children of Atom don't stage any personal attack on Far Harbour. They haven't done so despite their own people being killed, which shows remarkable restraint.

Originally posted by Jimmy Lander:

Replacing Tektus is also a temporary solution. After Tektus gets replaced by the next High Confessor who’s to say things won’t happen again? The CoA are a cult meaning they will believe almost everything without much proof (like by being told something is part of “Arom’s plan”). They also seem to form their own little militia, and letting them grow might prove dangerous in the long run.

Nothing stops that for almost any group in the wasteland. Unfortunately, the Harbourmen killing missionaries makes it very easy for that to happen.

Originally posted by Jimmy Lander:

Granting them Division (granting implying they accept the nuking) is what they believe in and wether or not you convinced them to do it or not, if they end up accepting it it’s on their hands, by their own free will. Besides, if any of the members didn’t embrace division, they could always have escaped the Nucleus, so they were technically never refused an alternative.

If you don't convince them and trigger the nuke anyway, they turn hostile, showing that it's certainly not of their own free will, and arguing that they should run away could also be said of the Harbourmen if you shut down the fog condensors. No-one's forcing them to stay there as monsters overrun Far Harbour, just as no-one's forcing them to stay on the Island in the first place.

[Jimmy Lander]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

If you don't convince them and trigger the nuke anyway, they turn hostile, showing that it's certainly not of their own free will, and arguing that they should run away could also be said of the Harbourmen if you shut down the fog condensors. No-one's forcing them to stay there as monsters overrun Far Harbour, just as no-one's forcing them to stay on the Island in the first place.

Ok you're didn't disproof my argument, you actually did the opposite by providing a quote. I said "Garanting them Division (granting implying they accept the nuking)" What you said in repsonse was that if you don't convince them, they will turn hostile showing that it's not of their free will to nuke themselves, which makes sense but is irrelevant, since I am talking only about the case where Tektus is convinced meaning he is no longer against the nuking. He gives you his permission to launch the nuke.Another thing worth noting is that reaching Division is part of their religion. They are unwilling to do so only because they are uncertain if the time for it has come, not because they are against it.

Your argument about the harbormen being able to escape the same way as the CoA is also kind of incorrect because the Children of Atom have dedicated themselves to serving Atom and the High Confessor. If the High Confessor wants to launch the nuke and destroy the Nucleus, the CoA are obliged to follow him (that's how their heirarchy works). If they do not wish to achieve Division this would be seen as a heresy, therefor their choice in that matter boils down to either betraying Atom, the family and the entire religion they dedicated their lives to or stay with Tektus. This basically means that by convincing Tektus to use the launch key, you convince the entire faction.

What I said earlier was a bonus argument, that even if some members of the CoA weren't truly dedicated and did not wish to 'accept Divison', they were still given chance to escape. A similar scenario involves the (*main game major spoilers ahead*)
destruction of the Institute. Not everyone in the Institute is a bad person, but in a global perspective the Institute as a whole is considered a threat and so it must ultimately be destroyed, thus you are given the opportunity to activate the evacuation protocols and give members of the institute a chance to escape. Wether or not that's the ending you picked, this is just a convenient analogy, not the best one, but still close enough. The harbormen on the other hand are not willing to leave the harbor (while the CoA willingly accept Division in the case where Tektus is convinced it's time for it). Besides the consequences are also greater if the fog condensers were to be shut, because innocent people will die as "collateral damage", Acadia will lose their synths' arrival point and the provision support they receive from the town, and the population of Far Harbor, unlike the CoA, can not survive in the fog, forcing them to leave the island if they hypothetically did have time to escape (which they don't, as evident by the ending where you do see them all dead if you disable the condensers. I highly doubt they'd stay and fight a fight they are aware they can't win, but even if they did, my previous points still stand)

You can claim there are innocents among the CoA as well, but as I stated in my second paragraph, by accepting the High Confessor as their leader, they deliberately and by their own free will choose to entrust their lives to him, therefor his actions account for every member of the Children of Atom. I am open to hearing another point of view but without providing a counter argument to what I'm saying it's just kindda pointless. Sorry for the really really long reply, I just wanted to make everything clear in a single reply ^^