I want a legitimate discussion on the Creation Club

[Biendeo]

I feel a bit jaded because I don't really see the huge problem with the Creation Club. The most prevalent arguments that I see is that people don't want to pay for mods full stop, and that people view this as a direct attack on Nexus Mods. My big counter-argument is that Creation Club, on the surface, looks like a direct competitor, but they're not shutting down Nexus Mods, or even forcing people to use this system. This is especially supported by the development process for Creation Club mods; they have to be proposed and developed through supervision. Mods can still exist as they currently are, but if the mods are better on Creation Club, then people who release mods on Nexus will need to up their game. Won't this mean that both sides get better mods in the end?

I'd love to have a legitimate conversation about this rather than...scrolling through very reactionary Steam reviews.

EDIT: I summed up all the points we've discussed today here: http://steamcommunity.com/app/377160/discussions/0/1474221865193477574/?ctp=10#c1474221865195294116

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

You want to know why its bad? alright i've said it a few times BUT
1: It is micro transactions in your full priced game
2: The new file type is ESM lite meaning you can't do any complex mods
3: because of the above this makes CC a horse armor only feature
4: if you don't get why horse armor is bad look up vids on it, its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥' meme
5: there are better versions of the stuff being sold on the nexus for free
6: the prices are crazy high for what you get, why would i buy a 4 dollar gun when i can get 200+ guns via weapon smith extended for free...
7: MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
8: they implemented a currency system so you can't ask for refunds if you aren't satisified with the purchase, additionally the average price of a paid mod is around 400 tokens but the lowest amount you can get is 750... aka 8 bucks designed to force you to purchase far more then you need.
9: DID I MENTION MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
10: Probably the most atrocious problem is the way they are paying mod authors, instead of paying them per mod sold. They pay them a lump sum based on mile stones. For example say i did an armor mod, i'd get paid for say the alpha, the beta and the final product(i think thats how mile stones work) lets just high ball it and say i made 1000 dollars for my work! bethesda then sells this armor mod at 4 bucks a pop. say it's popular and sells i don;t know 50,000 downloads of this mod! that's 200,000 dollars they made off my work and the only gave me a fraction of it and kept the rest so they made 199,000 dollars while i got 1000? yea that doesn't feel unfair at all now does it!

the CC is bad in almost every way, in its present state it is glorified horse armor vender.... if they want to seriously do paid mods then they need to do it right. Need big mods, like bruma and falskar and to pay those modders fair wages and royalties.

[meraco]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

You want to know why its bad? alright i've said it a few times BUT
1: It is micro transactions in your full priced game
2: The new file type is ESM lite meaning you can't do any complex mods
3: because of the above this makes CC a horse armor only feature
4: if you don't get why horse armor is bad look up vids on it, its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥' meme
5: there are better versions of the stuff being sold on the nexus for free
6: the prices are crazy high for what you get, why would i buy a 4 dollar gun when i can get 200+ guns via weapon smith extended for free...
7: MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
8: they implemented a currency system so you can't ask for refunds if you aren't satisified with the purchase, additionally the average price of a paid mod is around 400 tokens but the lowest amount you can get is 750... aka 8 bucks designed to force you to purchase far more then you need.
9: DID I MENTION MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
10: Probably the most atrocious problem is the way they are paying mod authors, instead of paying them per mod sold. They pay them a lump sum based on mile stones. For example say i did an armor mod, i'd get paid for say the alpha, the beta and the final product(i think thats how mile stones work) lets just high ball it and say i made 1000 dollars for my work! bethesda then sells this armor mod at 4 bucks a pop. say it's popular and sells i don;t know 50,000 downloads of this mod! that's 200,000 dollars they made off my work and the only gave me a fraction of it and kept the rest so they made 199,000 dollars while i got 1000? yea that doesn't feel unfair at all now does it!

the CC is bad in almost every way, in its present state it is glorified horse armor vender.... if they want to seriously do paid mods then they need to do it right. Need big mods, like bruma and falskar and to pay those modders fair wages and royalties.

And don't forget the most important issue:

micro transactions...

[Zombie]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

You want to know why its bad? alright i've said it a few times BUT
1: It is micro transactions in your full priced game
2: The new file type is ESM lite meaning you can't do any complex mods
3: because of the above this makes CC a horse armor only feature
4: if you don't get why horse armor is bad look up vids on it, its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥' meme
5: there are better versions of the stuff being sold on the nexus for free
6: the prices are crazy high for what you get, why would i buy a 4 dollar gun when i can get 200+ guns via weapon smith extended for free...
7: MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
8: they implemented a currency system so you can't ask for refunds if you aren't satisified with the purchase, additionally the average price of a paid mod is around 400 tokens but the lowest amount you can get is 750... aka 8 bucks designed to force you to purchase far more then you need.
9: DID I MENTION MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
10: Probably the most atrocious problem is the way they are paying mod authors, instead of paying them per mod sold. They pay them a lump sum based on mile stones. For example say i did an armor mod, i'd get paid for say the alpha, the beta and the final product(i think thats how mile stones work) lets just high ball it and say i made 1000 dollars for my work! bethesda then sells this armor mod at 4 bucks a pop. say it's popular and sells i don;t know 50,000 downloads of this mod! that's 200,000 dollars they made off my work and the only gave me a fraction of it and kept the rest so they made 199,000 dollars while i got 1000? yea that doesn't feel unfair at all now does it!

the CC is bad in almost every way, in its present state it is glorified horse armor vender.... if they want to seriously do paid mods then they need to do it right. Need big mods, like bruma and falskar and to pay those modders fair wages and royalties.

That's a pretty good explanation. I just saw I had an update for Fallout 4 and saw them trying to do paid mod stuff again.


I personally have a much simpler answer. It really sets a bad precedent. I'm tired of games I love slowly decaying over the years because that's how they get you. They slowly trickle in terrible stuff like this that you don't ''have to use'' and 5 years later your standards-of-gaming have declined significantly compared to what it used to be.

[Dex]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

You want to know why its bad? alright i've said it a few times BUT
1: It is micro transactions in your full priced game
2: The new file type is ESM lite meaning you can't do any complex mods
3: because of the above this makes CC a horse armor only feature
4: if you don't get why horse armor is bad look up vids on it, its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥' meme
5: there are better versions of the stuff being sold on the nexus for free
6: the prices are crazy high for what you get, why would i buy a 4 dollar gun when i can get 200+ guns via weapon smith extended for free...
7: MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
8: they implemented a currency system so you can't ask for refunds if you aren't satisified with the purchase, additionally the average price of a paid mod is around 400 tokens but the lowest amount you can get is 750... aka 8 bucks designed to force you to purchase far more then you need.
9: DID I MENTION MICRO TRANSACTIONS!
10: Probably the most atrocious problem is the way they are paying mod authors, instead of paying them per mod sold. They pay them a lump sum based on mile stones. For example say i did an armor mod, i'd get paid for say the alpha, the beta and the final product(i think thats how mile stones work) lets just high ball it and say i made 1000 dollars for my work! bethesda then sells this armor mod at 4 bucks a pop. say it's popular and sells i don;t know 50,000 downloads of this mod! that's 200,000 dollars they made off my work and the only gave me a fraction of it and kept the rest so they made 199,000 dollars while i got 1000? yea that doesn't feel unfair at all now does it!

the CC is bad in almost every way, in its present state it is glorified horse armor vender.... if they want to seriously do paid mods then they need to do it right. Need big mods, like bruma and falskar and to pay those modders fair wages and royalties.

This sums up my feelings nicely.

To add, Bethesda is knowingly competing with mods. Why? Are they as some people say just trying to help out modders make a buck? Or are they merely trying to cash in on a system that has historically remained free? What do you think OP?

edit: +1 to OP for wanting rational discussion.

[Dana.]

Creation Club would be a good idea if:

- Bethesda was actually able to provide content without bugs - their "promise" to test CC-mods is worth absolutely nothing. Fallout and Skyrim are STILL buggy beyond repair.

- Bethesda would not hide (these massive) mod-costs behind a shady, made-up currency. Look at what DLC you get for 20-30€ and then compare it to the stuff you get from the Creation Club for the same price.

- I usually have 80-120 active mods when I play Fallout or Skyrim. Am I supposed to pay hundreds of Euros for the same experience that I have now? Do you think it is worth the money? NO. It's absolutely insane.

- Bethesda would work with talented modders to make big add-ons/expansions/collections of content for a reasonable DLC-price (comparable to Far Harbor, Nuka World or Witcher 3's Blood and Wine for example), instead of hundreds of individual (crappy) mods up for micro-transactions

- Bethesda would NOT force everyone to download Creation Club content via a game update, spamming our hard-drives with crap we never asked for. (Yes, I know we can manually prevent updates, but that is NO solution, nor an excuse)

- Bethesda was so kind to stop with these garbage updates that breaks mods and tools like the F4SE.. every time something gets added to the Creation Club.

______________________

But we all know that this disaster isn't going to improve or change at all. It was ♥♥♥♥♥♥ since the first announcement and still is. A full-price (60€) AAA singleplayer-game adds micro-transactions for lame re-skins and minor, individual items. Are you fuqing serious?

[Mothvibe]

Originally posted by Biendeo:

I feel a bit jaded because I don't really see the huge problem with the Creation Club. The most prevalent arguments that I see is that people don't want to pay for mods full stop, and that people view this as a direct attack on Nexus Mods. My big counter-argument is that Creation Club, on the surface, looks like a direct competitor, but they're not shutting down Nexus Mods, or even forcing people to use this system. This is especially supported by the development process for Creation Club mods; they have to be proposed and developed through supervision. Mods can still exist as they currently are, but if the mods are better on Creation Club, then people who release mods on Nexus will need to up their game. Won't this mean that both sides get better mods in the end?

I'd love to have a legitimate conversation about this rather than...scrolling through very reactionary Steam reviews.

The simple fact of the matter is that Bethesda don't deserve to be AAA, because they consitently and constantly concentrate on 'placing skeletons and all that crap' instead of 'worthy dialogue' or even 'a game that works'.

Bethesda basically steal ideas from modders, from UI design implementation to the whole 'Survival Mode'

Modders are the ones that have made Bethesda game playable and polished.

NOT Bethesda.

Not only is the Creation Club FAR too little FAR too late, it's been implemented poorly (because that's the only way Bethedsa know how to implement things), and - based on the pathetic and frankly laughable items available at a launch - is literally 'Horse Armor V2.'

As usual, it's a great IDEA - which means that Bethesda didn't have it, can't implement it, and will refuse to fix it when it inevitably become clear they're trying to punch well above their weight.

Bethesda are lazy incompetent asshats who ignore the fact that we feed their kids (or whatever), and the Creation Club is them proving that to us.

To be clear: they should have worked WITH Nexus Mods - because they NEEDED to ACKNOWLEDGE the COMMUNITY EFFORTS.

"Thanks for making us rich. Now **** off." - Bethesda, 2017

Creation Club? Miscreants Fob, more like.

I am FOR paid mods, but this is a joke.

I agree with the guy below me: This is my line in the sand.

[Jawnjii]

2 years ago there was paid mods.
it gave the modders 25% of the income for their mods..
This one they give you 500-1000 dollars.. and keep your mods and all the rights to your mods.
It's not for the modders.. It's not for the community.. It's just pure unfiltered greed.
Now imagine if the mod becomes a gold.
Boycot bethesda.

[Florida_Man]

i believe a major problem with paid mods is that while modders are experts in creating content, they often lack buisness sense. modders really need to ask themselves "will people want to and are willing to pay this much real money for this?"

i admit i havent at all gone on creation club and looked at the mods posted there. most of my experience with the paid mods concept came from skyrim and steam. a few of the items (item crafting chests holding an obcene amount primarly) i had subscribed to got dummied way down as the origional content was reloaded as a paid mod. i simply told the modder that i wasnt going to pay 3$ for convience when i can get the same ammount thru consoel commands and i dropped him out of my subscriptions. i loved his work and how the mods worked smoothly but im not about to spend a penny of my hard worked cash on "horse armor" type mods or improved athesetics or for convienence.

on other notes there is no refund policy set up for CC so what is there to stop a low life modder from making a quick cash grab by ripping off us consumers with buggy and low quality mods. sure bethesda might boot them off CC eventually but not before the damage is done and the modder made money off of a scam while leaving us consumers with a crudy product and no way of getting their money back

another good question to ask is just how are modders getting paid? and how much will they really make? sure bethesda will get their cut but so will th goverment thru various taxes. Here in the U.S, any money comming from the sale of mods is taxable on the federal, state, even local city level. so a modder's profit takes a double blow not only from bethesda but also from good old uncle sam. if modders tried to hide the profits and leave it off their tax forms. they can be charged with tax evasion which is a felony and it also incurs a very hefty fine. thats if the IRS catches wind of it

i also have an issue with bethesda shoving that much data and mod files onto my hard drive WITHOUT my permission, the files are located in the data folder of Fallout 4 (C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Fallout 4\Data) and if the mod files are already on our hard drives, what's to stop people from 'cracking' them and using them free of charge?

[Ruin]

Originally posted by Stayz:

2 years ago there was paid mods.
it gave the modders 25% of the income for their mods..
This one they give you 500-1000 dollars.. and keep your mods and all the rights to your mods.
It's not for the modders.. It's not for the community.. It's just pure unfiltered greed.
Now imagine if the mod becomes a gold.
Boycot bethesda.

You do realise this is how employment works, don't you?

Do you think that Bethesda's own employees get a percentage or games sales, or royalties for past contributions?

If a contributor agrees to create content for a fixed paycheck, why are they then entitled to an ongoing cut of sales?

[Jawnjii]

Originally posted by Ruin:

Originally posted by Stayz:

2 years ago there was paid mods.
it gave the modders 25% of the income for their mods..
This one they give you 500-1000 dollars.. and keep your mods and all the rights to your mods.
It's not for the modders.. It's not for the community.. It's just pure unfiltered greed.
Now imagine if the mod becomes a gold.
Boycot bethesda.

You do realise this is how employment works, don't you?

Do you think that Bethesda's own employees get a percentage or games sales, or royalties for past contributions?

that's the thing they buy the rights to your mods. you don't get royalties they get 100% of the income from your mod and you are force to remove it from everywhere else.
And there's also a little flirtation of internship, but that's just until you finish doing your job and then they fire you.. Falksaar even said they weren't gonna hire me after my internship contract ended thankfully I left for bungie.

[Kindred Spirit]

Originally posted by Ruin:

Originally posted by Stayz:

2 years ago there was paid mods.
it gave the modders 25% of the income for their mods..
This one they give you 500-1000 dollars.. and keep your mods and all the rights to your mods.
It's not for the modders.. It's not for the community.. It's just pure unfiltered greed.
Now imagine if the mod becomes a gold.
Boycot bethesda.

You do realise this is how employment works, don't you?

Do you think that Bethesda's own employees get a percentage or games sales, or royalties for past contributions?

If a contributor agrees to create content for a fixed paycheck, why are they then entitled to an ongoing cut of sales?

Because real modding is an iterative process?

Oh, right, silly us thinking that the CC was to be real modding and not just more damn Horse Armour.

Apparently you and Bethesderp are on the same page of not understanding how mod development really works.

[Jawnjii]

Originally posted by l'Original:

Originally posted by Ruin:

Because real modding is an iterative process?

Oh, right, silly us thinking that the CC was to be real modding and not just more damn Horse Armour.

Apparently you and Bethesderp are on the same page of not understanding how mod development really works.

Actually it's worse. there's a code of conduct in the email that states that if you dare spread anything of this message you will get sued

Yes that's right Bethesda is threatening to SUE their modders, the people who made Morrowind/Oblivion/skyrim where ithey are, Fallout 3 /4 where they are.
Because ♥♥♥♥ respecting our community members they're all dip sh!t-Todd Howard

[Kindred Spirit]

Originally posted by Stayz:

Actually it's worse. there's a code of conduct in the email that states that if you dare spread anything of this message you will get sued

Yes that's right Bethesda is threatening to SUE their modders, the people who made Morrowind/Oblivion/skyrim where ithey are, Fallout 3 /4 where they are.
Because ♥♥♥♥ respecting our community members they're all dip sh!t-Todd Howard

Yup, I already knew NDA corp thuggery was involved to keep the details hushed so that only those desperate to have a carrot dangled in front of their faces would leap into it.

[Cyberstani Sammy]

Originally posted by Biendeo:

I feel a bit jaded because I don't really see the huge problem with the Creation Club. The most prevalent arguments that I see is that people don't want to pay for mods full stop, and that people view this as a direct attack on Nexus Mods. My big counter-argument is that Creation Club, on the surface, looks like a direct competitor, but they're not shutting down Nexus Mods, or even forcing people to use this system. This is especially supported by the development process for Creation Club mods; they have to be proposed and developed through supervision. Mods can still exist as they currently are, but if the mods are better on Creation Club, then people who release mods on Nexus will need to up their game. Won't this mean that both sides get better mods in the end?

I'd love to have a legitimate conversation about this rather than...scrolling through very reactionary Steam reviews.

The problem is that it it sells overpriced trash that can be gotten for free, and better. EX: you can buy a black paint job for power armor, or you can download Worsin's Power Armor Garage for free and get multiple different colorws of paint in multiple different styles. This is why it will almost certainly, and in time will become a waste of money on Bethesda's end.

Well, not really. The REAL reason why it will almost certainly fail is because gamers are entitled ♥♥♥♥♥ who foam at hte mouth is you say "paid mods". The fact that the service sucks is just justification.

[lPaladinl]

I will buy DLC packs, even if they are created by Modders and Third Party companies, if they are appropriately packed and priced.

Microtransactions for paid mods that are overpriced, undervalued, waste space on my storage drive regardless if I buy them, and make Bethesda potentially thousands of dollars in exchange for mere peanuts to modders who will soon find themselves to be chumps...

I can't abide by that.