Why do feral ghouls look different from intelligent ones?

[Bring the Beans]

I just read the wiki page for ghouls, but I can't find an answer. The wiki says that ghouls heal from low radiation, are immune to moderate radiation and turn feral when exposed to "excessive" radiation, but why does that change the way they look?

Feral ghouls look like they're melting, almost. They have skinny legs and arms but usually large, drooping chins and stomachs, and their faces are drooping too. Even the withered ghouls looks like they have wobbly double chins.
Intelligent ghouls on the other hand have completely humanoid bodies. The skin is charred and stuff, and the face lacks noses and ears, but the shape is human.

Why do intelligent ghouls looks more "dried out" than feral ones, when the feral ones are more irradiated? You'd think it was opposite (that lower radiation would let you retain muscle mass and fat while higher radiation would dry you out and make you stick thin).

[DouglasGrave]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Razier BloodBane:

well from what i understand is the radiation eats away at their brain and they start to lose themselves. as the brain shuts down more and more so do other things.. its a mutation and theirs are just far more advanced so iam guessing w.e was making them keep their looks and sanity is rotted away following the rest of them.

some were probably exposed to far more radiation for longer than the rest which is why they turned so fast. they are out in the sun and all kinds of weather and w/e else they do which seems to speed up the transformation while normal ones are still human and do human things so it prob slows it down as they stay away from the radiation and do normal things to keep their sanity

But then you've got Oswald the Outrageous, who is literally glowing with radiation and has been for quite some time. He's not the only one, either; Jason Bright from New Vegas was also a sane glowing one, and Hank from back in Fallout 2.

That should practically guarantee mental breakdown, but he's still sane (by wasteland standards), which suggests radiation isn't actually an important factor. In addition, while non-feral ghouls seem to be the minority, living in irradiated areas doesn't seem to make any difference to their numbers; plenty of feral ghouls live in areas with low or no radiation, and non-feral ghouls in irradiated areas don't seem to become feral with any greater frequency than those elsewhere.

Sure, you don't see a lot of non-feral ghouls in the Glowing Sea, but it would be a blasted wasteland even if it weren't radioactive, so that may be because sane ghouls don't have any more interest in living there than non-ghoul humans.

[TJ the HedgeScout]

In Fallout 3 and New Vegas, Feral Ghouls are more Skeleton looking.

[Ominous187]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Razier BloodBane:

well from what i understand is the radiation eats away at their brain and they start to lose themselves. as the brain shuts down more and more so do other things.. its a mutation and theirs are just far more advanced so iam guessing w.e was making them keep their looks and sanity is rotted away following the rest of them.

some were probably exposed to far more radiation for longer than the rest which is why they turned so fast. they are out in the sun and all kinds of weather and w/e else they do which seems to speed up the transformation while normal ones are still human and do human things so it prob slows it down as they stay away from the radiation and do normal things to keep their sanity

But then you've got Oswald the Outrageous, who is literally glowing with radiation and has been for quite some time. He's not the only one, either; Jason Bright from New Vegas was also a sane glowing one, and Hank from back in Fallout 2.

That should practically guarantee mental breakdown, but he's still sane (by wasteland standards), which suggests radiation isn't actually an important factor. In addition, while non-feral ghouls seem to be the minority, living in irradiated areas doesn't seem to make any difference to their numbers; plenty of feral ghouls live in areas with low or no radiation, and non-feral ghouls in irradiated areas don't seem to become feral with any greater frequency than those elsewhere.

Sure, you don't see a lot of non-feral ghouls in the Glowing Sea, but it would be a blasted wasteland even if it weren't radioactive, so that may be because sane ghouls don't have any more interest in living there than non-ghoul humans.

ea have their own perks and mutations which is why you dont see many as there are some that can turn radiation into healing effects.. maybe those are the ones that have better healing from the radiation

[DouglasGrave]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Razier BloodBane:

ea have their own perks and mutations which is why you dont see many as there are some that can turn radiation into healing effects.. maybe those are the ones that have better healing from the radiation

Yes, there could be individual differences, but that doesn't implicate radiation as a cause for mental breakdown.

What if they're just suffering various effects from aging and mutating without radiation having any effect at all?

[Yhwach]

It can be speculated that the immense amount of radiation locked in a part of their dna, and when it becomes "unstable" they develop a form of dimensia.

Feral Ghouls, at least from what I've observed, are regular ghouls that have went mad, lost themselves, and are effectively malnourished versions of their sapient ghoul counterparts.

[DouglasGrave]

Some ghouls obviously degenerate, but there doesn't appear to be any correlation between their degeneration and their exposure to radiation (either from themselves, or from external sources).

[Yhwach]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Some ghouls obviously degenerate, but there doesn't appear to be any correlation between their degeneration and their exposure to radiation (either from themselves, or from external sources).

Radiation is capable of killing off cells, it could be, that in the fallout universe, it does in fact lead to a mental instability the longer you remain a ghoul as breaking down is assumably inevtiable.

[DouglasGrave]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Yhwach:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Some ghouls obviously degenerate, but there doesn't appear to be any correlation between their degeneration and their exposure to radiation (either from themselves, or from external sources).

Radiation is capable of killing off cells, it could be, that in the fallout universe, it does in fact lead to a mental instability the longer you remain a ghoul as breaking down is assumably inevtiable.

Radiation also repairs cell damage in ghouls, and from what we see, heavy radiation exposure doesn't make it any more likely that a ghoul will become feral.

It could be that the ghoul state itself is responsible, and people only assume the feral state is caused by radiation because ghouls hang around radiation and a lot of them are feral (even though non-feral ghouls also expose themselves to plenty of radiation).

[Celtic Frost]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Celtic Frost:

Microwaves aren't the same kind of radiation. In fact, microwaves are electromagnetism of a frequency that cause polar molecules to vibrate by induction - which heats up the food. Dry ♥♥♥♥ in a microwave doesn't heat up.

Dry materials are still affected even if the microwave oven isn't specifically designed to target them; that's why your plates get hot.

Dry materials that have polarized molecules will heat up. Water is not the only polarized molecule in the universe.

[DouglasGrave]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Celtic Frost:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Dry materials are still affected even if the microwave oven isn't specifically designed to target them; that's why your plates get hot.

Dry materials that have polarized molecules will heat up. Water is not the only polarized molecule in the universe.

Indeed, water is not the only polar molecules in existence, but you were the one who made a blanket statement that dry things wouldn't heat up.

It's actually hard to find a conventional material that won't undergo some heating or be otherwise affected when placed in a functioning microwave oven.

[Ominous187]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Yhwach:

Radiation is capable of killing off cells, it could be, that in the fallout universe, it does in fact lead to a mental instability the longer you remain a ghoul as breaking down is assumably inevtiable.

Radiation also repairs cell damage in ghouls, and from what we see, heavy radiation exposure doesn't make it any more likely that a ghoul will become feral.

It could be that the ghoul state itself is responsible, and people only assume the feral state is caused by radiation because ghouls hang around radiation and a lot of them are feral (even though non-feral ghouls also expose themselves to plenty of radiation).

hard to say really but the brain doesn't heal like the rest of the body does. as it gets damaged and healed the memories,who they,their humanity and such fade away till the point that all remains is basic survival instincts and extreme aggro is left

[DouglasGrave]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Razier BloodBane:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Radiation also repairs cell damage in ghouls, and from what we see, heavy radiation exposure doesn't make it any more likely that a ghoul will become feral.

It could be that the ghoul state itself is responsible, and people only assume the feral state is caused by radiation because ghouls hang around radiation and a lot of them are feral (even though non-feral ghouls also expose themselves to plenty of radiation).

hard to say really but the brain doesn't heal like the rest of the body does. as it gets damaged and healed the memories,who they,their humanity and such fade away till the point that all remains is basic survival instincts and extreme aggro is left

I do remember that being mentioned by a researcher in a previous game, it just doesn't seem that radiation makes any difference to it. Oswald and other nonferal glowing ones have all the necessary radiation to bake their brains to a crisp, but haven't degenerated physically or mentally.

The other oddity is that the physical and mental changes are always paired; you don't have any feral ghouls with a nonferal physical appearance or vice versa. If it were damage, there should be at least few exceptions one way or the other.

But it's easy to imagine that in some ghouls the transformation is less extreme and more stable, allowing them to maintain their human mind and body nearly intact, while in others, it's unstable and readily breaks down, quickly turning them into violent monsters. Not as a result of radiation or damage after the fact, just how well the initial change took hold.

[Eagle_of_Fire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Guardian of the squared ball:

As for the scientific explanation, I'm not really sure what are the effects of long term ionizing radiation exposure on human tissue/fat/muscles.

As far as pure science goes, Fallout universe way to handle radiation is purely fantastical at best. The best answer to all those questions, since they're not related to real life science and actual reality, is "a wizard did it".

[Ominous187]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DouglasGrave:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Razier BloodBane:

hard to say really but the brain doesn't heal like the rest of the body does. as it gets damaged and healed the memories,who they,their humanity and such fade away till the point that all remains is basic survival instincts and extreme aggro is left

I do remember that being mentioned by a researcher in a previous game, it just doesn't seem that radiation makes any difference to it. Oswald and other nonferal glowing ones have all the necessary radiation to bake their brains to a crisp, but haven't degenerated physically or mentally.

The other oddity is that the physical and mental changes are always paired; you don't have any feral ghouls with a nonferal physical appearance or vice versa. If it were damage, there should be at least few exceptions one way or the other.

But it's easy to imagine that in some ghouls the transformation is less extreme and more stable, allowing them to maintain their human mind and body nearly intact, while in others, it's unstable and readily breaks down, quickly turning them into violent monsters. Not as a result of radiation or damage after the fact, just how well the initial change took hold.

i would call them adaptive mutations. maybe they had something to do with something shielding their brain. could be the amount they recived prior to being a ghoul that can effect how they will turn out later in life, children of atom live near and in that sht so i wouldn't doubt if they did become ghouls they would prob end up glowing ones at some point with lower chances of going feral.

it could be as their brains get damaged and repaired most didn't have access to things to keep them sane and keep their intelligence or have others to interact with while their brains constantly get damaged and repaired and just end up feral.

i looked it up and most seem to have come up with the radiation brain thing as well. then there is this

"Biology
The brain structure of a feral ghoul indicates that the regenerative ability of the neurological system that affords "normal" necrotic post-humans their longevity does not extend into the higher reasoning functions of the brain itself. This condition is referred to as "ferocious post-necrotic dystrophy," according to the ghoul physician Barrows. Despite the apparent lack of the higher reasoning they once had as humans, some are capable of semi-intelligible speech, as the Vault 34 security officers will occasionally growl out understandable phrases similar to the trogs of The Pitt, indicating that their vocal chords and their brain's speech centers are still relatively intact."

[DouglasGrave]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Razier BloodBane:

i looked it up and most seem to have come up with the radiation brain thing as well. then there is this

"Biology
The brain structure of a feral ghoul indicates that the regenerative ability of the neurological system that affords "normal" necrotic post-humans their longevity does not extend into the higher reasoning functions of the brain itself. This condition is referred to as "ferocious post-necrotic dystrophy," according to the ghoul physician Barrows. Despite the apparent lack of the higher reasoning they once had as humans, some are capable of semi-intelligible speech, as the Vault 34 security officers will occasionally growl out understandable phrases similar to the trogs of The Pitt, indicating that their vocal chords and their brain's speech centers are still relatively intact."

Right, but notice it's mentioning a difference between feral ghouls and non-feral ghouls. So for feral ghouls, the regenerative ability isn't protecting their higher reasoning functions, while the reasoning functions of non-feral ghouls presumably do get protected by their regenerative ability.

It actually fits with what I'm suggesting; in non-feral ghouls, the regenerative process is working better to keep their mind intact than in ferals. If the regenerative process that isn't working properly for neurological functions is also less functional for broader physical purposes, it would explain why feral ghouls end up more deformed (because their body is being improperly regenerated).