Pus of Man

[Sabaithal]

I've been wondering something. Do these things react to you if you are NOT embered, before they transform that is? It wouldn't make much sense lore-wise if they do...

[Nyah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWu5YqWjy8o

[Sabaithal]

I've seen the video already. Most of it seems to make sense, I just want to know why they react, and attack the ashen undead specifically. They will only react to an ashen one, or a phantom/darkmoon initially, but when they are transformed they can hit anything indiscriminately.

They are beings of the dark, so the first thing that comes to mind for them to react to is souls of light, or embers.

[Sabaithal]

I also agree with every observation pointed out in the video, but my theory has a slightly different conclusion.

Pus of man is limited to the Lothric castle vicinity. Outside of the grave area of which we start, they do not appear at all. They have draconic traits, and they inhabit the wyverns, but not all of them. Not the ones in archdragon peak, only in Lothric. There are also three, freshly transformed pus in the consumed kings garden. Who is the boss of that area? Oceiros. What was he doing, his obsession? Dragons, and probably immortality as well, but also his youngest daughter, Ocelotte. (This leads to a theory about Ocelotte being Yorshka, but that's different)

I think the pus of man were an experiment to recreate dragons performed by those who served Oceiros, or possibly the man himself. Likely that either he, or whoever was in charge at the time, decided to weaponize the pus of man by putting them into the skin of deceased wyverns, which they could effectively control. As we've already seen, once of a pus of man is fully transformed, they destroy everything and everyone, friend or foe alike. They cannot be controlled in the 'hollow' skin they inhabit.

That led to me wondering why the 'hollow' variants react to ashen undead specifically. And for that matter, why is gundyr infected with the pus, despite the fact that the location of firelink doesn't appear to be anywhere near Lothric castle.

[Airk]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

That led to me wondering why the 'hollow' variants react to ashen undead specifically. And for that matter, why is gundyr infected with the pus, despite the fact that the location of firelink doesn't appear to be anywhere near Lothric castle.

...ive NEVER udnerstood why people keep saying that
look up from the start of the game, take the path on the right, you can see right into the area where you learn the dragon gesture.
and yes, if you clip up there, its there.
firelink shrine shares the same physical space as the dark version. if you drop souls in one place, you can pick them up in the other,
firelink shrine is clearly phsyically located directly behind ocerios garden to the right a bit.
close to the base of the rear of the castle.
its consistent in both its viewing angles of the castle, as well as its location relative to oceiros. the only confusion seems to come that its not visible from the top. simple oversite. theres lots of places in all 3 games where things arnt quite right reguarding the placeholders loaded to represent backgrounds and such. or areas that should/shouldnt be seen from one area or another.

[Seferofe]

Originally posted by Airk Thaughbaer:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

That led to me wondering why the 'hollow' variants react to ashen undead specifically. And for that matter, why is gundyr infected with the pus, despite the fact that the location of firelink doesn't appear to be anywhere near Lothric castle.

...ive NEVER udnerstood why people keep saying that
look up from the start of the game, take the path on the right, you can see right into the area where you learn the dragon gesture.
and yes, if you clip up there, its there.
firelink shrine shares the same physical space as the dark version. if you drop souls in one place, you can pick them up in the other,
firelink shrine is clearly phsyically located directly behind ocerios garden to the right a bit.
close to the base of the rear of the castle.
its consistent in both its viewing angles of the castle, as well as its location relative to oceiros. the only confusion seems to come that its not visible from the top. simple oversite. theres lots of places in all 3 games where things arnt quite right reguarding the placeholders loaded to represent backgrounds and such. or areas that should/shouldnt be seen from one area or another.

Just to add on, you can see where you come out from behind Oceiros' boss room and drop down into Untended Graves. This is a screenshot taken from just outside Firelink Shrine:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1660174288

It's that giant entrance near the top of the screenshot.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Seferofe:

Originally posted by Airk Thaughbaer:

...ive NEVER udnerstood why people keep saying that
look up from the start of the game, take the path on the right, you can see right into the area where you learn the dragon gesture.
and yes, if you clip up there, its there.
firelink shrine shares the same physical space as the dark version. if you drop souls in one place, you can pick them up in the other,
firelink shrine is clearly phsyically located directly behind ocerios garden to the right a bit.
close to the base of the rear of the castle.
its consistent in both its viewing angles of the castle, as well as its location relative to oceiros. the only confusion seems to come that its not visible from the top. simple oversite. theres lots of places in all 3 games where things arnt quite right reguarding the placeholders loaded to represent backgrounds and such. or areas that should/shouldnt be seen from one area or another.

Just to add on, you can see where you come out from behind Oceiros' boss room and drop down into Untended Graves. This is a screenshot taken from just outside Firelink Shrine:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1660174288

It's that giant entrance near the top of the screenshot.

....leave it to me to not notice obvious details. Yep, thats Lothric castle. That brings up another question though, why is the one underneath the actual Castle so dark...despite the fact that it IS the same exact location technically...I suppose this has to do with corrosponding timelines, which can be interpreted as...well different views of the world I suppose? One interpretation anyway.

[Seferofe]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Seferofe:

Just to add on, you can see where you come out from behind Oceiros' boss room and drop down into Untended Graves. This is a screenshot taken from just outside Firelink Shrine:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1660174288

It's that giant entrance near the top of the screenshot.

....leave it to me to not notice obvious details. Yep, thats Lothric castle. That brings up another question though, why is the one underneath the actual Castle so dark...despite the fact that it IS the same exact location technically...I suppose this has to do with corrosponding timelines, which can be interpreted as...well different views of the world I suppose? One interpretation anyway.

My interpretation is that the Untended Graves (dark firelink shrine) is just in the past, probably during a time inbetween the fire being linked. How it's like that I'm not sure, maybe it's Oceiros' doing. Again, how he'd do it I have no idea. Reason I think this is because it's Gundyr before he's infected with the Pus of Man, and the Shrine Handmaiden will recognise you. She also says that it's weird, since the bell of awakening, or whatever it's called, hasn't rang yet.

No idea what the Black Knights are snooping around there for though.

[MadHamster]

Hurp-durp, it is a video game, mate. Monsters and bosses attack you cause you are a PC which they are scripted-waypointed to attack on sight.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Seferofe:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

....leave it to me to not notice obvious details. Yep, thats Lothric castle. That brings up another question though, why is the one underneath the actual Castle so dark...despite the fact that it IS the same exact location technically...I suppose this has to do with corrosponding timelines, which can be interpreted as...well different views of the world I suppose? One interpretation anyway.

My interpretation is that the Untended Graves (dark firelink shrine) is just in the past, probably during a time inbetween the fire being linked. How it's like that I'm not sure, maybe it's Oceiros' doing. Again, how he'd do it I have no idea. Reason I think this is because it's Gundyr before he's infected with the Pus of Man, and the Shrine Handmaiden will recognise you. She also says that it's weird, since the bell of awakening, or whatever it's called, hasn't rang yet.

No idea what the Black Knights are snooping around there for though.

I have a theory as to why there are black knights there. If both the firelink shrine we are familiar with, and untended graves are two 'instances' of the same locations, then there is a third: The Kiln of the first flame. We know Gwyn was the first 'lord of cinder' to link the flame, and the black knights in Ds1 were there as well, still serving him presumably.

So its been...how many cycles since that first one? Hard to say, but I could count AT LEAST seven, probably much more, just going by Ds2. I'm guessing with Gwyn gone the black knights may have gradually wandered away from the kiln...or they just moved of their own volition after everything began falling into the dreg heap. Whatever the case, they probably ended up at that first instance of firelink in the kiln, and somehow ended up in the untended graves instance. Not sure how, but its the only reason I can come up with for why they are down there.

[Seferofe]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Seferofe:

My interpretation is that the Untended Graves (dark firelink shrine) is just in the past, probably during a time inbetween the fire being linked. How it's like that I'm not sure, maybe it's Oceiros' doing. Again, how he'd do it I have no idea. Reason I think this is because it's Gundyr before he's infected with the Pus of Man, and the Shrine Handmaiden will recognise you. She also says that it's weird, since the bell of awakening, or whatever it's called, hasn't rang yet.

No idea what the Black Knights are snooping around there for though.

I have a theory as to why there are black knights there. If both the firelink shrine we are familiar with, and untended graves are two 'instances' of the same locations, then there is a third: The Kiln of the first flame. We know Gwyn was the first 'lord of cinder' to link the flame, and the black knights in Ds1 were there as well, still serving him presumably.

So its been...how many cycles since that first one? Hard to say, but I could count AT LEAST seven, probably much more, just going by Ds2. I'm guessing with Gwyn gone the black knights may have gradually wandered away from the kiln...or they just moved of their own volition after everything began falling into the dreg heap. Whatever the case, they probably ended up at that first instance of firelink in the kiln, and somehow ended up in the untended graves instance. Not sure how, but its the only reason I can come up with for why they are down there.

Ah, forgot about the broken Firelink Shrine you appear at before the Soul of Cinder. So that does make some sense.

As for how many cycles? I'm guessing dozens if not over a hundred. You can see all those dead Firekeepers in the Firelink Shrine tower. And unlike DS 1 it seems more like there's just 1 Firekeeper per cycle. I'm guessing this because the whole reason Gundyr couldn't continue is because the Firekeeper of his cycle had already perished.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Seferofe:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

I have a theory as to why there are black knights there. If both the firelink shrine we are familiar with, and untended graves are two 'instances' of the same locations, then there is a third: The Kiln of the first flame. We know Gwyn was the first 'lord of cinder' to link the flame, and the black knights in Ds1 were there as well, still serving him presumably.

So its been...how many cycles since that first one? Hard to say, but I could count AT LEAST seven, probably much more, just going by Ds2. I'm guessing with Gwyn gone the black knights may have gradually wandered away from the kiln...or they just moved of their own volition after everything began falling into the dreg heap. Whatever the case, they probably ended up at that first instance of firelink in the kiln, and somehow ended up in the untended graves instance. Not sure how, but its the only reason I can come up with for why they are down there.

Ah, forgot about the broken Firelink Shrine you appear at before the Soul of Cinder. So that does make some sense.

As for how many cycles? I'm guessing dozens if not over a hundred. You can see all those dead Firekeepers in the Firelink Shrine tower. And unlike DS 1 it seems more like there's just 1 Firekeeper per cycle. I'm guessing this because the whole reason Gundyr couldn't continue is because the Firekeeper of his cycle had already perished.

Getting the exact number of cycles is probably impossible given this series. I'm theorizing it was at least Seven because of some of the NPC dialog lines from Ds2. Each one implies that one cycle lasts roughly 1000 years, and that three different kingdoms existed in the exact same spot as Drangleic (and we know that Lordran was here too if you look closely at the world around you).

This next part is little more than a guess, but there are five 'sublime bone dust' items in Ds2, and each one states that it was the remains of someone who linked the first flame. So my guess is there were at least five cycles before Drangleic, probably including Lordran, making Ds2 the sixth cycle therefore. And we know that Ds3 happens after Ds2, so if we assume the prior information is correct, then Lothric must be AT LEAST the seventh, though probably a much bigger number by now.

But again, this is all basically just Hypothesis. Its impossible to confirm it for sure.

[Seferofe]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Seferofe:

Ah, forgot about the broken Firelink Shrine you appear at before the Soul of Cinder. So that does make some sense.

As for how many cycles? I'm guessing dozens if not over a hundred. You can see all those dead Firekeepers in the Firelink Shrine tower. And unlike DS 1 it seems more like there's just 1 Firekeeper per cycle. I'm guessing this because the whole reason Gundyr couldn't continue is because the Firekeeper of his cycle had already perished.

Getting the exact number of cycles is probably impossible given this series. I'm theorizing it was at least Seven because of some of the NPC dialog lines from Ds2. Each one implies that one cycle lasts roughly 1000 years, and that three different kingdoms existed in the exact same spot as Drangleic (and we know that Lordran was here too if you look closely at the world around you).

This next part is little more than a guess, but there are five 'sublime bone dust' items in Ds2, and each one states that it was the remains of someone who linked the first flame. So my guess is there were at least five cycles before Drangleic, probably including Lordran, making Ds2 the sixth cycle therefore. And we know that Ds3 happens after Ds2, so if we assume the prior information is correct, then Lothric must be AT LEAST the seventh, though probably a much bigger number by now.

But again, this is all basically just Hypothesis. Its impossible to confirm it for sure.

You're actually forgetting that the Lords of Cinder in DS 3 also fuelled the flame, so that adds another 4 at least. There's also the fact that the Ashen Ones are people who failed to link the flame. I'm guessing they got to the First Flame and were too weak to truly link the fire, otherwise I don't know why they'd be reborn through ash.

[Argstein]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Pus of Man

+1
nice topic title

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Seferofe:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Getting the exact number of cycles is probably impossible given this series. I'm theorizing it was at least Seven because of some of the NPC dialog lines from Ds2. Each one implies that one cycle lasts roughly 1000 years, and that three different kingdoms existed in the exact same spot as Drangleic (and we know that Lordran was here too if you look closely at the world around you).

This next part is little more than a guess, but there are five 'sublime bone dust' items in Ds2, and each one states that it was the remains of someone who linked the first flame. So my guess is there were at least five cycles before Drangleic, probably including Lordran, making Ds2 the sixth cycle therefore. And we know that Ds3 happens after Ds2, so if we assume the prior information is correct, then Lothric must be AT LEAST the seventh, though probably a much bigger number by now.

But again, this is all basically just Hypothesis. Its impossible to confirm it for sure.

You're actually forgetting that the Lords of Cinder in DS 3 also fuelled the flame, so that adds another 4 at least. There's also the fact that the Ashen Ones are people who failed to link the flame. I'm guessing they got to the First Flame and were too weak to truly link the fire, otherwise I don't know why they'd be reborn through ash.

The Ashen undead are...well they're a bit different. As you said, they were people who tried to link the flame, but failed. My guess is because they did not possess the required amount of souls necessary, specifically the four lords souls.

When you fail to link the flame, it still takes all your souls anyway, including the dark soul within. An ashen undead was once a normal undead. The dark soul is what makes things ugly and twisted, 'hollow' looking. But the Ashen undead do not have a dark soul, so they do not appear hollow when they die. My proof of this is the in-game darksign icon. It is empty. In previous games there was a black hole within, but in Ds3 it is empty, nothing there, no darkness to be contained.

As for the darksign...well you could indeed call a curse. Shanalotte did. Its a brand composed of partial lords souls as far as I can tell, a 'ring of fire' that either manifests on those with dark souls, or is branded manually. It is still technically a semblance of souls, and souls are life, so it merely being there prevents you from staying dead. Hence, undead. The actual origin leads back to the ringed city, but thats another tangent.

Long story short, an Ashen undead is an undead without any darkness inside them. Therefore no beef-jerky appearance unless you start to f#ck with your soul like what Yoel does.

[Seferofe]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Seferofe:

You're actually forgetting that the Lords of Cinder in DS 3 also fuelled the flame, so that adds another 4 at least. There's also the fact that the Ashen Ones are people who failed to link the flame. I'm guessing they got to the First Flame and were too weak to truly link the fire, otherwise I don't know why they'd be reborn through ash.

The Ashen undead are...well they're a bit different. As you said, they were people who tried to link the flame, but failed. My guess is because they did not possess the required amount of souls necessary, specifically the four lords souls.

When you fail to link the flame, it still takes all your souls anyway, including the dark soul within. An ashen undead was once a normal undead. The dark soul is what makes things ugly and twisted, 'hollow' looking. But the Ashen undead do not have a dark soul, so they do not appear hollow when they die. My proof of this is the in-game darksign icon. It is empty. In previous games there was a black hole within, but in Ds3 it is empty, nothing there, no darkness to be contained.

As for the darksign...well you could indeed call a curse. Shanalotte did. Its a brand composed of partial lords souls as far as I can tell, a 'ring of fire' that either manifests on those with dark souls, or is branded manually. It is still technically a semblance of souls, and souls are life, so it merely being there prevents you from staying dead. Hence, undead. The actual origin leads back to the ringed city, but thats another tangent.

Long story short, an Ashen undead is an undead without any darkness inside them. Therefore no beef-jerky appearance unless you start to f#ck with your soul like what Yoel does.

Thing is wasn't the dark what gave humans their appearance? When the First Flame was discovered everyone appeared like hollows. Yet when the Furtive Pygmy split the Dark Soul it gave everyone "fleeting forms", which I believe is the appearance when you're not hollow. I think the Dark Sign takes away that humanity on death, hence why you start appearing like a hollow again. (The fleeting form thing is from Aldia's dialogue from DS 2. I'll have to read more of it tomorrow to see if I can find anything else)

Also I just checked the wikis and non of the Darksigns had darkness within the ring of fire. Unless it's only in game, but I can't check until tomorrow.

Besides that it seems the dark can give things emotions and some sort of will. Some examples: In DS 1 it describes the pursuer hex as being given a will, and its envy, or maybe love, makes it relentlessly chase your foe. In DS 3 the Ringed Knight weapons were forged in the abyss, and are said to have a sort of memory because of it.

I'll look more lore and item descriptions/dialogue tomorrow. Seeing as I have work in the morning and it's 01:28 am for me.