Dark Souls Lore Is Terrible.

[Kyrth]

Before you say anything, give me a second.

The method in which DS conveys its story isn't bad, it's actually a pretty good way of telling a story to those that actually care. People that aren't interested, aren't slowed down. That's pretty clever.

But in order for this method of storytelling to work, you need the story to be complete & consistent, before you decide to implement it.

Velka, Izalith, The champion's gravetender, the entirety of DS2's base game. Because these things are inconsistent & half♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ they make the rest of the series' lore into trash.

Now that may sound like flawed logic, but please, let me explain.

People that are interested in piecing the lore together, do so through twice analysing every single item, piece of architecture, moveset & dialogue. These things are all puzzle pieces that unlock the story that Miyazaki wants to tell. But when even one of these puzzle pieces doesn't fit, the whole puzzle can't be completed. A wrench in the gears.

Take for instance the Earthen Peak. If you are trying to explain to someone, why the dreg heap is what it is, and how it came to be, then you also need to explain Earthen Peak's broken flaws, because that mistake was woven into the Dreg Heap.

When you inevitably say "Yeah there's an elevator at the top which magically teleported you to dragon-land because fromsoft got lazy with world design." then world-design itself suddenly becomes another piece of the lore that, even if miyazaki put narrative clues into, has to be ignored because facets of it are misleading.

And almost every asset, be it item-description or whatever, has an Earthen-peak that just breaks it.

How can we trust in what we see, if the champion's gravetender is rushed.

How can we trust in what we read, if the descriptions contradict & deceive.

Ultimately, you can look past these little things, but they add up, break & slow down the clarification proccess so severely, that alot of the Lore is a joke to most.

If you disagree with that last statement, then try and spin a serious lore theory about Patches. You'll be laughed off by anyone you try to convince. Because he's one of the many barriers that stand in the way of Dark Souls's lore being worth caring about consistently.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that i don't hate the series, minus 2. Just care enough to point out it's flaws.

[Obi-Wan]

Yes you use humanity to kindle but humanity is actually a primordial soul. The one that was found by the pygmy. It shattered and humanity is a fragment of this soul, so called dark soul. Manus captured a lot of the dark soul, probably farming humanity in the Abyss.

Linking the fire does not appear to consume a great soul. Because in NG+ you see that you hold Gwyn's soul in your inventory. The other souls were used to open the door to the kiln.

[Esce]

Автор сообщения: Obi-Wan

Linking the fire does not appear to consume a great soul. Because in NG+ you see that you hold Gwyn's soul in your inventory. The other souls were used to open the door to the kiln.

To be fair the NG+ cycle never been part of the lore, as far as I can tell. Everything just resets.

[Obi-Wan]

I forgot this part but the souls of the Lords of Cinder can be consumed or transposed into weapons. But the animation of the fire keeper shows her collecting the 5 souls for the ritual opening of the kiln. So doesn't this contradict somewhat ? How can she use their souls when I actually used them already.

[Formous]

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

I'm curious, why do you believe there were specifically 9 cycles? Not saying you are wrong, I just don't have a number myself.

The first cycle ended with the linking of the flame via gwyn. The second is DS1 where the player links the flame. Drangleic occurs some time so far after DS1 that lordran no longer exists the way it was. From dialogue of various NPCs in DS2 I'm fairly certain there were 3 different kingdoms between DS1 and DS2, meaning 3 cycles. Although my guess is closer to 5, but only because there are 5 sublime bone dusts in Ds2, so not much of a basis there. As far as the distance between Ds2 and Ds3, I have nothing there.

However it is implied that in Ds3 that all four 'lords of cinder' linked the flame at the same time, as to link the flame you must have all four (well technically three) lords souls to do so, and all three lords we kill (and I suppose ludleth) have one specific lord soul (Abyss watchers have gwyns, yhorm has izaliths, aldrich has nito, ludleth has basically an extra like seath).

The kingdoms in Ds3 include Carthus (likely 2 cycles ago), Irythill (last cycle, still around), Lothric (current cycle, not on good terms with Irythill), and that all I've got for now. If we assume each cycle lasts 1000 years then thats 3000 years in just Ds3, 2000 in Ds1, and at least 3000 in Ds2 possibly more.

9 known cycles. It has to do with Dark Souls 1 and 3. Each Lord is Born at the beginning of a cycle, and every time you link the flame, a Kingdom is born. So for the 4 kingdoms in Dark souls 2 to exist, ending with dranglaic, someone linked the fire. For Dark souls 3, the Abyss watchers burned, a kingdom was born. Aldritch burned, a kingdom was born, the Giant burned, a kingdom (died) and was reborn. And then we come to the Lothric Princes. I suppose you can say 5 kingdoms exist in DS3 as far as we know, with more implied if we assume the byss watchers burned before Aldritch, since they killed kingdoms like Carthis. I assume Carthis was the last kingdom they destroyed.

Kingdoms each existed the span of the Age of Fire following Linkage. So we know somewhee around 10 cycles minimum existed, with more implied before the canonical dark ending in DS3. You can tell it works this way to as DS1, only Gwyn's kingdom existed before the Fading flame. I can't quite answer why a new kingdom wasn't born when he was burned, but I will give that to being the first game and the lore expanded after.

[Sabaithal]

Oh wow so much to tackle. Ok, not going to use quotes because this will be long, starting with the response from Esce.

Gwyn indirectly fought the chaos, he armed his silver knights with demon-slaying weapons and sent most of those knights to fight the chaos demons. Their armor and weapons where charred and turned black in the process, hence the black knights. Afterwards Gwyn linked the flame because he could see no solution to the Chaos demon problem I assume.

Gwyn feared humanity, the dark in other words. That is why he and the lord feared for the end of the age of fire, and that is why he linked the flame. His soul is the great soul that fears/fights the dark, and it seems those who inherited his souls ended up in a similar path to the one he took. The Iron king attempted to control the power of demons, he failed (smelter demon), and was consumed by the old chaos far below the iron keep, becoming a demon himself, so slight divergence here. The Abyss watchers fought the dark and any trace of it, even within members of their own legion. They fight and fear the dark, and they collectively possess a lords soul. I can think of no other candidate besides Gwyns. They probably took queues on fighting the abyss from the 'wolfs teachings' born from artorias' legacy.

Lothric chose not to try and link the first flame. The other lords besides ludleth also did not even attempt to link it a second time. Semi-hidden dialogue from ludleth implies the process of linking the flame is unbelievably painful and tormenting. Then there's what the flame represents, and the act of prolonging something which would have died out naturally long ago. Not going to continue right this second or this paragraph will be significantly longer.

As for the lords souls in Ds1, Izalith had hers and distributed fragments among her daughters, Nito distributed his among the necromancers and pinwheels and various calcium rich gentlemen, and Gwyn widely distributed his among the other lords, to Seath, and to the Four kings. As for the Pygmy, its implied very little of his lord soul (the dark soul) remains in him due to overuse/the abyss manifesting. By the end of Ds1 you have defeated all four major figures, and defeat gwyn at the kiln, so you have the three souls of light, and you should also have collected a great deal of humanity throughout the game. I suppose you can link the flame without any humanity, but you still have the darksign, and an endless well of darkness contained within, so humanity fragments might not be necessary. On extra note, that well of darkness is not present in Ds3 where it is implied you attempted to link the flame but failed, but the darksign is still there.

And to anyone speaking of how you can consume boss souls after you killed the boss, here is my counterargument: In every game you still have to defeat every 'lord' in order to properly progress, boss soul consumed or not. The game subtly implies that just because you possess souls does not make them a 'part of you'. Look at all the hollows in any given game. They possess small amounts of souls, yet they still are feral, attacking everything seemingly. They also still have that ugly 'hollowed' appearance that a being takes when they have no souls of light within them (you do not need a dark souls to appear hollow, look at gwyn). Possessing souls is not the same as having them be a part of you it seems. After all, when you die and revive you have no souls (well the darksign kind of counts, as it is a semblance of light) yet you still move, whereas having no souls would make you, well dead.

[Esce]

Автор сообщения: Formous

Kingdoms each existed the span of the Age of Fire following Linkage. So we know somewhee around 10 cycles minimum existed, with more implied before the canonical dark ending in DS3. You can tell it works this way to as DS1, only Gwyn's kingdom existed before the Fading flame. I can't quite answer why a new kingdom wasn't born when he was burned, but I will give that to being the first game and the lore expanded after.

I would say no new kingdom was born, because Gwyns kingdom was still alive. Anor Londo still stand strong with Gwyndolin protecting it.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

Gwyn indirectly fought the chaos, he armed his silver knights with demon-slaying weapons and sent most of those knights to fight the chaos demons. Their armor and weapons where charred and turned black in the process, hence the black knights. Afterwards Gwyn linked the flame because he could see no solution to the Chaos demon problem I assume.

Well, I remembered incorrectly that Gwyn burned himself before the chaos accident happened, burning some of his loyal knights with him.

But Gwyn sacrificed himself to keep the first flame burning. The chaos never spread further than Izalith in his time. For him the dark was a more dangerous enemy than the chaos.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

Gwyn feared humanity, the dark in other words. That is why he and the lord feared for the end of the age of fire, and that is why he linked the flame. His soul is the great soul that fears/fights the dark, and it seems those who inherited his souls ended up in a similar path to the one he took. The Iron king attempted to control the power of demons, he failed (smelter demon), and was consumed by the old chaos far below the iron keep, becoming a demon himself, so slight divergence here. The Abyss watchers fought the dark and any trace of it, even within members of their own legion. They fight and fear the dark, and they collectively possess a lords soul. I can think of no other candidate besides Gwyns. They probably took queues on fighting the abyss from the 'wolfs teachings' born from artorias' legacy.

Soul of the Smelter Demon, that haunts
the castle that sunk into a pool of iron.
The Old Iron King's life was taken by a mass of
iron that had been given a soul.
Was this metal goliath here from the beginning,
or as it a product of the king's conceit?.
For me it sounds more like a machine, than a demon. Like the iron golem is manmade. The mind of the iron king was possesed and poisend by the iron and his power. He killed his friend Alonne and created a creature so strong that it dethroned the king.
Soul of the Old Iron King, who succumbed
to the flames that swallowed his castle.
The Iron King's flesh was charred, and his
soul possessed by the things that lurk below.
The iron king hat a similar fate, like Moria dwarfs in LOTR. He was powerful until he discovered something that devoured him. Probably a mix of chaos under his castle and the work of his own hands, the smelter demon.
The similarity to Gwyn would be that both creat his worst enemy, if Gwyn created the curse like Aldia and "The ringed City" sugest. Gwyn created a world without end, because the feared an end of his time. Everything, the world too, suffered from this until all fades to ashes at the end of time.
The abyss watcher do not need Gwyns soul, when they are strong enough together. Probably we do not have to get the "original" lord souls to link the fire.
Even if they had Gwyns souls, that would not been enough to link the fire, if we follow your theory, they need all lord souls.
The Abyss watcher get their strengh out of their number.
Yhorm because he is a giant. (His fire linking also did not gone so well.)
Aldrich has eaten so many people that he was able to link the fire.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

Lothric chose not to try and link the first flame. The other lords besides ludleth also did not even attempt to link it a second time. Semi-hidden dialogue from ludleth implies the process of linking the flame is unbelievably painful and tormenting. Then there's what the flame represents, and the act of prolonging something which would have died out naturally long ago. Not going to continue right this second or this paragraph will be significantly longer.

Do you think, anybody would be able to link the fire a second time. All of them suffer a lot.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

As for the lords souls in Ds1, Izalith had hers and distributed fragments among her daughters, Nito distributed his among the necromancers and pinwheels and various calcium rich gentlemen, and Gwyn widely distributed his among the other lords, to Seath, and to the Four kings. As for the Pygmy, its implied very little of his lord soul (the dark soul) remains in him due to overuse/the abyss manifesting. By the end of Ds1 you have defeated all four major figures, and defeat gwyn at the kiln, so you have the three souls of light, and you should also have collected a great deal of humanity throughout the game. I suppose you can link the flame without any humanity, but you still have the darksign, and an endless well of darkness contained within, so humanity fragments might not be necessary. On extra note, that well of darkness is not present in Ds3 where it is implied you attempted to link the flame but failed, but the darksign is still there.

For me the lore in Dark Souls never seemed like the lords split their soul like a cake or like Melkor/Morgoth did in Tolkiens Silmarillion.
Nito does not look like he suffered from cutting his soul into pieces, nor does his souls discription imply that.
Beside Gwyn we have a lot of other gods, probably with their own lord souls. He gave some of his power to other gods, but that might be his family. Allfather Lloyd does not sounds like he got power from anybody and Velka would be less feared by the other gods if Gwyn gave her a lot of her power.
I would still say that the souls of Seath and the four kings are not from Gwyns soul.
A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered
at the dawn of the Age of Fire.
Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these
four great leaders of New Londo, and granted
them their ranks and the fragments of a
great soul. Although this is not a full Lord
Soul, it can still satiate the Lordvessel.

Soul of the albino Seath the Scaleless.
A fragment of a Lord Soul discovered
at the dawn of the Age of Fire.
Seath allied with Lord Gwyn and turned upon
the dragons, and for this he was awarded
Dukedom, embraced by the royalty, and given
a fragment of a great soul. Although just a
piece, it will still satiate the Lordvessel.
A lord souls, not his lord souls. Might be lost in translation, but still

Somehow it is strange than the Choosen-One has less power over the curse/ the dark than the Bearer-of-the-curse. In DS2 we are able withstand the curse, after becoming the successor of four powerful lords.

[Sabaithal]

The smelter demon was a construct like the Iron golem, yes. It was originally designed probably as a war machine, given the kingdom. However its heavily implied that the location of the Iron Keep was very close (or right on top of) the location of lost Izalith. The smelter demon's 'soul' was probably corrupted before it was even placed in that body. As for the iron king, I'm still vague on the details, just that he turned into a demon at some point.

As for the lords souls in Ds3, it is specifically stated that Yhorm, the Abyss watchers, and Aldrich do have the main lord souls. Defeating them is required to progress the game, you cannot enter the kiln without them. They all have individual strengths, yes, but they do indeed have lords souls (whats left that they can use after linking the fire. We fight crippled versions of all three). Its not stated which souls they have but my theory is Abyss watchers = Gwyns LS, Yhorm = Izalith LS, Aldrich = Nito LS.

The Abyss watchers fought any trace of the dark, to the point where they would wipe out entire countries to prevent the spread of the abyss, even going so far as to kill members of their own ranks. Ironic that they were all undead, therefore all had the darkness within them anyway, but I suppose linking the flame would turn them 'ashen' instead, with no more dark within afterwards. You even see the 'leader' absorb the last of the lords soul via the wolf's blood into himself in the final phase of the fight. The legion fought as one, and their minds were as one, so the lords souls was more or less divided between them until only one was left. Still, they fought the dark, and thats the main reason I think it's gwyns soul.

Yhorm the giant fights you engulfed in flames (not exactly unique given this game), but also resides in a location called "the profaned capitol". All the mobs in this location (except the dark ones) use fire as their weapon, even the aristocrat...things. This one is sort of weak, since the main reason I think the soul is Izalith is due to everything having 'profane' in it and fire being the main focus of this area.

As for Aldrich...oh lords where to begin? Well whatever he was before he became a bloated monstrostiy, he consumed so much that he became a bloated monstrosity. Its implied at his full strength that he was much larger and we probably would have ended up fighting a giant blob with groaning faces on it. He also 'consumed' gwyndolin and is now wearing his torso as a sock-puppet (look up the concept art, its pretty gruesome). We only know for a face that he ate Gwyndolyn so who knows if anyone else important was a victim, besides maybe Smough? The tip of his spear also looks just like Nito's sword. Plus given his role as the 'disgusting monstrosty composed of dead things' fits with both Ds2s the rotton and Ds1 Nito.

Also, yeah, who would want to go through linking the fire again? Clearly not them or anyone else except one clueless pillock (the PC).

Also just using the quotes from the item/soul descriptions you posted: Its not explicitly stated whos fragment the four kinds found. It says 'A fragment of a lord soul discovered AT THE DAWN of the age of fire'. It doesn't elaborate further. All four lords souls were discovered at the dawn of the age of fire. It then states that Gwyn was the one who 'recognized' them, so it is likely a fragment of his soul. Why would Izalith do such a thing, and why would Nito even care?

Seathes soul says the exact same thing, and he too was 'awarded' for helping Gwyn specifically. Again, why would Izalith and Nito care? Gwyn is the guy everyone seems to look up to due to his role and stealing the spotlight ect.

Also can you elaborate what you mean in the last line between the Chosen one/cursed undead? I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I mean, they are the exact same thing, just with different names due to the cyclic distance between the games.

[Esce]

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

Also just using the quotes from the item/soul descriptions you posted: Its not explicitly stated whos fragment the four kinds found. It says 'A fragment of a lord soul discovered AT THE DAWN of the age of fire'. It doesn't elaborate further. All four lords souls were discovered at the dawn of the age of fire. It then states that Gwyn was the one who 'recognized' them, so it is likely a fragment of his soul. Why would Izalith do such a thing, and why would Nito even care?

Seathes soul says the exact same thing, and he too was 'awarded' for helping Gwyn specifically. Again, why would Izalith and Nito care? Gwyn is the guy everyone seems to look up to due to his role and stealing the spotlight ect.

I just say that there might be more than only 4 lord souls. I am still not convinced that we need all
lords souls to link the fire.
In DS1 we do not need the pygmys souls to link the first flame and in DS2 the souls of the 4Kings is missing. In DS3 we do not need Seaths Souls (Oceiros has it, if the items from his souls says anything) and the souls of the 4Kings is still missing.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

Also can you elaborate what you mean in the last line between the Chosen one/cursed undead? I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I mean, they are the exact same thing, just with different names due to the cyclic distance between the games.

I am curios about the fact, that in DS1 we are not able to stay human with all the power we have collected, although in DS2 we are, after getting all crowns together.
In DS2 we were able to break the curse. Many things in the series suffers from the curse, in DS1 only humans, in DS2 humans and bigger people(If Vendrick is not human), in DS3 everything even the world.
The bearer of the curse is more powerful in this term than anything in DS3 or DS1(Gods aside) what have souls.
In my theory the power of one person is determind by the amount of powerful souls he has. in DS3 Gael and the Ashen-one should be able to withstand the curse at the end of time. And Geal is clearly not able to do so, even after he eats everyone, the player did not kill, to collect the dark soul.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

However its heavily implied that the location of the Iron Keep was very close (or right on top of) the location of lost Izalith.

The fight against the Ivory king takes place in the old chaos. The arena even looks like the arena from the bed of chaos. I think it is safe to say that the old Izalith is under the frozen Eleum Loyce.
Maybe the chaos spreads within the fires of the inner earth and the Iron king found some chaotic fire.

[Obi-Wan]

Автор сообщения: Catatonic_Analytic

Автор сообщения: Obi-Wan

Certain lore is contradictory but he always warns about it and says that something is his most plausible explanation and always asks his audience as to what is their opinion on it. But yes some lore is quite convoluted. It is remarkable though the amount of imagination he puts into constructing these little pieces. We sometimes are too busy playing the game hack and slash and we miss those little details which he puts into place for us.

He doesn't put any imagination into his lore theories, or at least he didn't during the DS2 era of the game.

https://youtu.be/p4D5K8gF3A0

Dude was a hack.

I don't want to take sides. It is a small squabble between them and is old. Neutral, doesn't affect me.

[Sabaithal]

If you have anything suggesting the existence of more than 3 lords souls (not counting the dark souls here) by all meants post it. As of yet I have not found anything. Also according to my theory seaths souls is just a fragment of gwyns lord soul, same with the 4 kings, so those souls may not be distributed in each and every cycle. Also Oceiros does not have seathes soul. He does have a similar appearance, but that is due to his obsession (much like seath in a way) that led him to be that way. There is not direct connection I have found other that Ocerios being obsessed with immortality and pursuring the same route that seathe did to some degree.

As for DS2, it did pursue a new route. Specifically to break the 'curse' (darksign in case anyone still mixing this up), you have to defeat all the kings and bring their crowns back to vendrick (high lord wolnir anyone?). He then 'blesses' the crowns in such a way that WHILE WEARING the crowns you are immune to the curse effect, but this does not last if they are not equipped, and the blessing does not carry over into NG+. You aren't really breaking the curse, but you are providing an effective ward against it, which is in itself interesting. Doubtless the bearer of the curse was more powerful by the end than the chosen undead.

About the ashen one and gael, here's the thing. The darksign manifests on those who have any dark soul WITHIN them, not just by possessing one. Both the Chosen undead and the Bearer of the Curse had that 'endless well of darkness' that all humans have, and the darksign contains said darkness, keeps it from spreading (And turning you into an abomination, like the pus of men). The ashen one and Gael also have it, but the Ashen one does not have the endless well. Gael does. The darksign can also be broken. How? Going hollow, completely. Even the bosses of the dark do not respawn. Why? No Darksign. Other undead like yourself do not respawn after going hollowed and being killed by you. Why? Their darksign is gone. The darksign is what makes you revive after death, whether or not darkness is inside of you. Gael probably had the darksign until phase 2 of his fight when the darkness within (and the dark soul he took into himself) consumed him entirely, turning him hollow. That is why you as an Ashen one cannot truly die, because there is no darkness within you to conflict with the darksign. That is why the 'ashen' are the last resort.

Also you are probably right about the Ivory king and Izalith, as well as the iron-king connection. I'll just point out an interesting happenstance of Eleum loyce being in a frozen wasteland with the old chaos underneath, and Irythil being a frozen landscape with the catacombs probably in the same area, with the 'demon ruins' underneath.

[Esce]

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

If you have anything suggesting the existence of more than 3 lords souls (not counting the dark souls here) by all meants post it. As of yet I have not found anything. Also according to my theory seaths souls is just a fragment of gwyns lord soul, same with the 4 kings, so those souls may not be distributed in each and every cycle.

Yes, I have no prove of more than the 4 lord souls we see in the DS1 intro. But honestly the same goes for your theory that we need parts of these souls to link the fire.
The lord souls itself might be shattered over the lands in DS3 so everybody is able to link the fire, with more or less success. But how was Gwyn able to rekindle the first flame with only parts of his soul?
There is probably no theory that explains everything.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

Also Oceiros does not have seathes soul. He does have a similar appearance, but that is due to his obsession (much like seath in a way) that led him to be that way. There is not direct connection I have found other that Ocerios being obsessed with immortality and pursuring the same route that seathe did to some degree.

We get the moonlight sword from his soul, like we did from Seaths tail. Also we get the white dragon breath, I would take the sorcery as a sign that Oceiros was at least possesed to become like Seath. And he is clearly more like Seath than Freya in DS2.
Maybe Oceiros found parts of Seaths lord soul and the soul corrupted him. He wanted to become a real dragon like Seath wanted to become a real dragon.
It seems like he wanted to recreate a dragon with Ocelotte.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

As for DS2, it did pursue a new route. Specifically to break the 'curse' (darksign in case anyone still mixing this up), you have to defeat all the kings and bring their crowns back to vendrick (high lord wolnir anyone?). He then 'blesses' the crowns in such a way that WHILE WEARING the crowns you are immune to the curse effect, but this does not last if they are not equipped, and the blessing does not carry over into NG+. You aren't really breaking the curse, but you are providing an effective ward against it, which is in itself interesting. Doubtless the bearer of the curse was more powerful by the end than the chosen undead.

Breaking was surely the wrong word, becoming immune would explain it better.
High lord wolnir is a bit to scared of the Abyss to be the bearer-of-the-curse, maybe he wants be like us, by collecting every crown he can get without knowing to "use" them.
NG+ never did anything lorewise. That would be something for a DS4. Seeing changes to the world if we kindle the fire or not.

Автор сообщения: Sabaithal

About the ashen one and gael, here's the thing. The darksign manifests on those who have any dark soul WITHIN them, not just by possessing one. Both the Chosen undead and the Bearer of the Curse had that 'endless well of darkness' that all humans have, and the darksign contains said darkness, keeps it from spreading (And turning you into an abomination, like the pus of men). The ashen one and Gael also have it, but the Ashen one does not have the endless well. Gael does. The darksign can also be broken. How? Going hollow, completely. Even the bosses of the dark do not respawn. Why? No Darksign. Other undead like yourself do not respawn after going hollowed and being killed by you. Why? Their darksign is gone. The darksign is what makes you revive after death, whether or not darkness is inside of you. Gael probably had the darksign until phase 2 of his fight when the darkness within (and the dark soul he took into himself) consumed him entirely, turning him hollow. That is why you as an Ashen one cannot truly die, because there is no darkness within you to conflict with the darksign. That is why the 'ashen' are the last resort.

That does not explain why other humans die. We see some go hollow, but other just "die" after we kill them. Beside of some DS3 shrine people (Have you every noticed that the shrine maiden increase some prices if you kill the firekeeper?).
How could the dark souls turn someone hollow? If the absence humanity turn someone hollow and humanity are parts of the dark soul, how should Geal turn hollow?
The hollow mechanic is not really consistent in the Dark Souls lore.

[Sabaithal]

My proof for the lords souls is that most major characters direct you to collecting them, and at points in every game you must have killed the great figures in order to progress. I'd say thats as close to a definitive indicator as you can get in Dark souls. I think the idea is supposed to be: You bring all the souls that have no been scatted, back together as one (within you), and upon lighting the first flame again, those souls are renewed by your own soul, and the dark souls within you feed them. Then they get distributed again, drift further apart over time, and another clueless pillock has to do the same thing you just did.

Oceiros could have found fragments of seaths soul, however I do genuinly believe that his appearance is either fanservice or a lore-trap, trying to get you to believe something that isn't the case. Still there isn't much evidence here one way or the other. As for the duke's dear freja, no more comment other than the fact that all three other 'great souls' you acquire in that game had a unique 'lord soul' shape, whereas freja did not, it had a buck-standard boss soul shape.

Pretty much agree with point 3, except I strongly suspect there will be no Ds4, so don't get your hopes up.

This one is complicated. Ok anything with darkness has the darksign manifest at one point or another. Doesn't have to be human to have the darksign. A human as defined in dark souls is more or less, a being with a humanoid appearance that has both light and dark souls within them. They must have both. If they have no dark they are either a Lord, or ashen one. If they have no light, they are hollow. Hollowing in-depth next paragraph because complicated.

Ok, first, you do not need darkness within you to be 'hollow' that is to say, having a withered ugly appearance. It is implied that all beings have a 'hollow' appearance by default, but lords souls or fragments of them will remove that ugly appearance and give you a much more appealing form. One of the main attributes and allure of the lords souls is 'power' so whose not to say that those with power also desire to be beautiful? Thats just speculation though. My proof that you do not need darkness to be hollow is Gwyn at the end of Ds1. He has a hollowed, ugly appearance, but there is no dark within, yet also almost no light. He clings to the light souls he 'possesses' but has none within him any longer. I would surmise he drops a boss soul because if he didn't gamers would cry and complain about the fight being way too hard with no reward.

As to why the NPCs will often just straight up die when you kill them, bear in mind not all of them have the darksign yet, therefore are not undead. You also have to consider that the undead who you do meet are often very close to going hollow, and often do so at the end of their questlines. Its possible that some of them require just one more death to push their minds over the edge, and the darkness blot out the light (the darksign erased). Other than that, I would also surmise this could be a gameplay feature, as having to kill leonhard 40 times just to get him to stay dead wouldn't exactly be stimulating after the first 5 times, and it would be tedious.

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Автор сообщения: SS

Автор сообщения: Grand Pope General Malarky

And here is SS to tell us how things are and that we are all dumb.

Hey, the truth hurts

You people are just too lazy to look for the connections. They're all there.

The lore is easily the best thing about DS games.

And the things i've dicovered... The things i know about the lore... They would blow your mind... You won't see any of these in your half-baked youtube videos.

you are literaly wrong on 98% of that

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it's one of those time where i feel like some of you don't know the meaning of "lore"

[Sabaithal]

lore
noun: lore

A body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth.

Reason for posting this: Smart@ss