From Godmaster to Grindmaster

[Dumi]

Before you read further, let me tell you that I ADORE Hollow Knight, it is the only game (at the moment) that I played over 200 hours.

The only word/s that I could find that fits the new DLC perfectly is not Gods & Glory or Godmaster, but Grindmaster, cause that is what the DLC is, instead of it being fun and enjoyable, it is mostly a grind and fustrating. Hollow Knight as a game is (in my opinion) not hard, in the same sense as a game like Dark Souls. The true value of Hollow Knight lies in its lore, gameplay, design and interesting fights.
The fact that you have to start all over if one of the bosses in the pantheon beats you (especially in the 5th Pantheon and mostly likely the four new bosses in that pantheon) is a grinding experience, which to me is less fun and more mindless works.

Super Quick Fix Suggestion:
Please Team Cherry, in Hollow Knight v1.4.3.0, make the benches in all pantheons checkpoints (if you rest and then die, you return to that bench instead of the beginning).
If players want to get out of the pantheons afterward (without finishing them), they just have to use the dreamgate teleportation action that will send them at the beginning of the pantheon (a feature already in the game).

This suggestion is my own personal opinion on how to make the DLC less grindy.

EDIT:

Modified me original post a little and added some new suggestion below.
As I have read the comments, which some were insightful and some less insightful, I would like to add to the fix suggestion that I made. The bulk of the added suggestions comes from @GSandSDS below, (thanks for linking to the reddit post). If you get the chance read the article:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/9apqqx/godmaster_the_new_patch_is_fixing_all_the_wrong/

Taking the article in consideration, there the players are (very roughly) devided into two different groups. Those who are looking for progression and those who are looking for a challenge, as well as the things added, what I would like to add to my fix suggestion is:

- Godseeker campaign (as you play through the story): In Godhome, take away the bindings, lifeblood room/cocoons at benches and Radiant difficulty. What I suggested with the super quick fix should still apply (benches become checkpoints in the pantheon). This is for those looking for progression.

- Godseeker mode (the new mode already added): In Godhome, add the bindings, lifeblood room/cocoons at benches, Radiant difficulty and benches are not checkpoints, as well as new achievements (''Steel God'' achievement for beating all pantheons with all bindings and ''Void Given Focus'' achievement). This is for those looking for a challenge.

[CeliriaRose]

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

Originally posted by Appaguchee:

Personally the more people complain the more likely TC is to add the rest of the bosses to the final pantheon. If the ending is too hard for someone either 1: try again, 2: use cheat sheet and buff your health/weapon, or 3: look it up on youtube (And to a lesser extent download someone else's save file) Just because you can't do it doesn't mean you HAVE to complain about it. I like PV when it was a challenge, because it fitted with the game. Lightning Jellyfish was an interesting fight, requiring you to adapt in uniqe ways. Markoth was one of my favorite fights because it felt like I was fighting someone of equal strenght. AR was just unfair. I'm sad about the nerfing (Of PV mostly) and kinda wish it hadn't been that way (Due to how I practiced and slew the fifth pantheon before the nerf, and it took a long time of practicing). Adding benches to the bossrush wouldn't make it a bossrush, itd be hall of gods but a door inbetween every statue that opens upon beating the last statue beforhand. Having beat all of the bosses on radiant mode, I know how hard it was. I also proved it possible.

At the very least it was free. Although I would prefer the Hornet DLC to this one, it's still a good 20-100 hour addon to the game. If you have to be salty about something be salty about glorified charms. That's what I'm upset about (and the PV nerfing. I think PV used to be the coolest character in the game, the epitomy of power. Even if it couldn't contain radiance if it had dreamnailed itself it would have won in the dreamstate. Now it's just this lumbering hulk that trips on itself. Really, this is what makes me sad... a vessel this weak would probably either be killed by hornet or nosk easily. It's the weakest vessel I've ever seen now.)

The issue is that it's not fun. It's tedious. And sure, just because it's not fun doesn't mean we have to complain about it - but we love this game, and we'd like it to be as good as it can be. And that means taking something that is currently tedious and challenging and making it fun and challenging.

We're not complaining because we have to, we're complaining because we can see the potential of this part of the game and we're annoyed that it's not living up to that. It could be fun, but its not.

I don't think checkpoints are the right way to go about this; that changes and greatly reduces the challenge. I think the correct approach is to take out all the tier 1 bosses (Hornet 1, Grimm 1, Dung Defender, etc) and all the things that aren't really bosses (Massive Moss Charger, Soul Warrior, Vengefly King), and anything else that is pitifully easy.

If you want a boss rush of literally all the bosses, I don't begrudge you that. But it's going to have Mantis Lords, Nosk, and Pale Lurker in it, and it's going to be about 50 minutes long and deeply boring. Stick it in Godseeker Mode where it's obviously optional content and isn't required to get the true ending.

If you don't want to take out Gorb, Soul Warrior, and the other easy stuff, at least make it challenging. Maybe fight the Dream Warriors two at a time. Give Soul Warrior some Soul Twister spawns. Fill the Gruz Mother fight with volatile gruzzers, the Vengefly Kings with Furious Vengeflies, and the Brooding Mawlek with Lesser Mawleks. Remove the floor from the Flukemarm arena. Anything to make them interesting. But that's a tonne more work for Team Cherry.

It has nothing to do with the game being "the best it can be" and everything to do with you wanting it to be what you demand it should be. It has nothing to do with it's potential or anything of the sort. Stop trying to disguise you wanting the game to cater to your specific tastes as somehow being for the betterment of the game itself. The best thing for the game is it being precisely what the devs intended it to be and want it to be.

What you are claiming would be like me looking at the wildlife elements of games like Far Cry or Red Dead Redpemtpion and claiming it would be better for the games if they were made less agressive because I personally don't like that aspect of the games and feel they are annoying. That's not how things work. You not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, it doesn't mean the game would be overall better if it catered to your whims. All it means is you don't personally like it. Which is fine you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it fact or make it something that would make the game "the best it can be" The game doesn't cater perfectly to everyones tastes and it doesn't need to.

[GSandSDS]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

You not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, ...

"Someone" not liking a certain part of the game does indeed not mean that it needs to be fixed. Because creating a game that literally all players like is basically impossible. However, if enough players begin to criticize the same thing about a game then that's usually a good indication for a problem with the game.

[CeliriaRose]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

You not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, ...

"Someone" not liking a certain part of the game does indeed not mean that it needs to be fixed. Because creating a game that literally all players like is basically impossible. However, if enough players begin to criticize the same thing about a game then that's usually a good indication for a problem with the game.

Or it means the aspect is niche and wasn't going to appeal to the mass majority to begin with. Not every game or every feature is built to appease the mass majority.Tons of people have complained about Dark Souls and it's difficutly. Does that suddenly mean Dark Souls is bad? Does that mean Dark Souls needs to be fixed despite all the people who love it and enjoy it precisely for the same reasons many criticize. Dragon Quest falls into a similar category. It gets heavily criticized regularly for it's old school style gameplay which never tries to modernize itself that much. Does Dragon Quest suddenly need to be fixed because a lot of people don't like the style of game the developer aim to maintain?

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

You not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, ...

"Someone" not liking a certain part of the game does indeed not mean that it needs to be fixed. Because creating a game that literally all players like is basically impossible. However, if enough players begin to criticize the same thing about a game then that's usually a good indication for a problem with the game.

We already did a poll on this. People don't want change. You are a loud minority.

[GSandSDS]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

We already did a poll on this. People don't want change. You are a loud minority.

Hmm, interesting. Where is the poll? All I have as a reference right know are some threads here and on Reddit, and complains by different let's players who otherwise finished the main game and the other DLCs.

[CeliriaRose]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

We already did a poll on this. People don't want change. You are a loud minority.

Hmm, interesting. Where is the poll? All I have as a reference right know are some threads her and on Reddit, and complains by different let's players who otherwise finished the main game and the other DLCs.

https://www.strawpoll.me/16386819

It's not a massive majority but plenty of people are happy with the way the game is and again just because a game or feature doesn't garner mass appeal doesn't mean it needs to be changed or fixed.

[GSandSDS]

It depends on how you "read" the poll. According to this poll it's about 50:50.
50% don't want changes and 50% want changes. I wouldn't call this a real majority against changes. And you cannot suggest more than one type of change in this poll which means that some wanted changes cannot be voted by those who want to change more than one thing making the "I want changes" side artifically smaller than it could be. I'm pretty sure otherwise it would be significantly more than 50 %.

[Eresus]

Since when is 50% of people wanting change a loud minority?

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

It depends on how you "read" the poll. According to this poll it's about 50:50.
50% don't want changes and 50% want changes. I wouldn't call this a real majority against changes. And you cannot suggest more than one type of change in this poll which means that some wanted changes cannot be voted by those who want to change more than one thing making the "I want changes" side artifically smaller than it could be. I'm pretty sure otherwise it would be significantly more than 50 %.

The poll was written by a kotaku-reading game-dev on your side after 3-4 pages of claiming to be the majority and calling us "elitists", he had support from many other loudmouths. If you think it's poorly written, the context should make up for it.

Point of bringing this poll up is to show you that your argument has already been made. You tried the complaint route and at the height of it you held a poll. Then you lost.

[GSandSDS]

@Arti_Sel:
First of all, there is no "you" (as in "you, the con-/pro-changes-collective"). There are only individual players, all with different opinions. (It's astounding how often people think that "the other side" in a forum discussion is some sort of organized group.) Second, I don't see a voting-competition here. So there is no "lost" or "win". Third, even if there would have been one, I don't see a "lost", more a "tie". And fourth, I don't care who called whom an "elitist" before. I haven't called anyone an "elitist" and even if I think that someone is an elitist (which doesn't mean that the rest are elitists too) I wouldn't use that word since it does not help. I just makes people angry thus making any further discussion impossible.

But back to topic, I found this topic interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/9apqqx/godmaster_the_new_patch_is_fixing_all_the_wrong/

There the players are (very roughly) devided into two different groups. Those who are looking for progression and those who are looking for a challenge.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

@Arti_Sel:
First of all, there is no "you" (as in "you, the con-/pro-changes-collective"). There are only individual players, all with different opinions. (It's astounding how often people think that "the other side" in a forum discussion is some sort of organized group.) Second, I don't see a voting-competition here. So there is no "lost" or "win". Third, even if there would have been one, I don't see a "lost", more a "tie". And fourth, I don't care who called whom an "elitist" before. I haven't called anyone an "elitist" and even if I think that someone is an elitist (which doesn't mean that the rest are elitists too) I wouldn't use that word since it does not help. I just makes people angry thus making any further discussion impossible.

But back to topic, I found this topic interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/9apqqx/godmaster_the_new_patch_is_fixing_all_the_wrong/

There the players are (very roughly) devided into two different groups. Those who are looking for progression and those who are looking for a challenge.

Well we got a word for when these super individual player-brains-in-wats all got unique ideas that happen to coincide, we call it a group and instead of addressing every single person in an opposing group it's sometimes easier to address the group as a whole. You join a side, I'm just keeping you up to date on the kind of people who got your back in here. If you see anyone with antrophomorphic animals in their profile picture or sonic in their username they will probably agree with you. Historically those are your people.

Look your side said voting matters, then your side made a vote. Shifting around the ranks and rebranding as a collective of individuals that value progression instead of a group of casuals is just more evidence that you are one and the same. Cause that's the exact thing you did before, when you lose an argument you move like hermit crabs to the next instead of ever admitting you lost. It's been like whackamole in here ever since godmaster came out.

[Kyle La Kyle]

Originally posted by GSandSDS:

It depends on how you "read" the poll. According to this poll it's about 50:50.
50% don't want changes and 50% want changes. I wouldn't call this a real majority against changes. And you cannot suggest more than one type of change in this poll which means that some wanted changes cannot be voted by those who want to change more than one thing making the "I want changes" side artifically smaller than it could be. I'm pretty sure otherwise it would be significantly more than 50 %.

This is my opinion but... It's a bit disingenous say it's 50:50 since:

-8% "Rework certain bosses, or the order you fight them."

When I read this I think that either PoH is fine and only needs to rearrange the order you fight bosses OR bosses get reworked to be harder and more interesting (and yes, harder, because 90% of people complain it's boring, dull, tedious, etc. so putting nerfs won't change that factor in the slightest). So it leans more into the "50% it's Fine crowd".

-9% "Place the endings elsewhere and within reach for more players?"

I think this one has nothing to do with PoH itself but more with what's behind it... To be fair you could move the ending somewhere else (and make it "less worth" because it was easier to reach) but you would still get complains from people that want the achievement (which it's just that, an achievement). I think it was intended to be a challange so when you reach it, you feel even better once completed it (like the Weathered Mask or the Void Idol on it's 3rd stage) but maybe I'm wrong... so with that in mind I put it on the "50% needs a change crowd".

-5% "Other: Be changed, but not in a way listed above."

You can't add this to any side because you don't know what is... Again it could be changes that make "worse" or "better" (which is really subjective at this point).

So taking these numbers out it would be:
~58% (50% Fine + 8% Rework/Change Order)
~37% (28% of benches + 9% Ending)
~5% (Other)

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by CeliriaRose:

Originally posted by Self-rescuing Princess:

The issue is that it's not fun. It's tedious. And sure, just because it's not fun doesn't mean we have to complain about it - but we love this game, and we'd like it to be as good as it can be. And that means taking something that is currently tedious and challenging and making it fun and challenging.

We're not complaining because we have to, we're complaining because we can see the potential of this part of the game and we're annoyed that it's not living up to that. It could be fun, but its not.

I don't think checkpoints are the right way to go about this; that changes and greatly reduces the challenge. I think the correct approach is to take out all the tier 1 bosses (Hornet 1, Grimm 1, Dung Defender, etc) and all the things that aren't really bosses (Massive Moss Charger, Soul Warrior, Vengefly King), and anything else that is pitifully easy.

If you want a boss rush of literally all the bosses, I don't begrudge you that. But it's going to have Mantis Lords, Nosk, and Pale Lurker in it, and it's going to be about 50 minutes long and deeply boring. Stick it in Godseeker Mode where it's obviously optional content and isn't required to get the true ending.

If you don't want to take out Gorb, Soul Warrior, and the other easy stuff, at least make it challenging. Maybe fight the Dream Warriors two at a time. Give Soul Warrior some Soul Twister spawns. Fill the Gruz Mother fight with volatile gruzzers, the Vengefly Kings with Furious Vengeflies, and the Brooding Mawlek with Lesser Mawleks. Remove the floor from the Flukemarm arena. Anything to make them interesting. But that's a tonne more work for Team Cherry.

It has nothing to do with the game being "the best it can be" and everything to do with you wanting it to be what you demand it should be. It has nothing to do with it's potential or anything of the sort. Stop trying to disguise you wanting the game to cater to your specific tastes as somehow being for the betterment of the game itself. The best thing for the game is it being precisely what the devs intended it to be and want it to be.

What you are claiming would be like me looking at the wildlife elements of games like Far Cry or Red Dead Redpemtpion and claiming it would be better for the games if they were made less agressive because I personally don't like that aspect of the games and feel they are annoying. That's not how things work. You not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, it doesn't mean the game would be overall better if it catered to your whims. All it means is you don't personally like it. Which is fine you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it fact or make it something that would make the game "the best it can be" The game doesn't cater perfectly to everyones tastes and it doesn't need to.

Everyone who has bothered to answer the question when I ask it agrees that PoH is tedious. No one - not even Arti_Sel who is the most contrary little brat whose mum should really supervise him better - says that the first few fights are enjoyable in any way. It's just that people on your side of the argument seem to find the hours of crushing tedium adds to the brain-chemistry endorphin rush you get when you finally complete it. I think this is terrible, terrible game design. You're entitled to disagree, but your arguments on this matter are every bit as subjective as mine. We're agreed that it's boring; you just happen to think this is a good thing.

About "The best thing for the game is it being precisely what the devs intended it to be and want it to be" - the devs haven't even completed PoH themselves. No, really, go listen to the interview - neither of Team Cherry have actually finished Pantheon of Hallownest. They got someone else to playtest it for them. That's why we're still going on about this; because the people who can change it haven't experienced how boring it is for themselves.

Maybe they are ok with it being tedious and unfun. Maybe they even specifically wanted it to be tedious and unfun. And while fun is subjective, and quality of game design is subjective, I'm going to keep raising this point whenever someone tries to argue that it's about difficulty, or about a request to "make the pantheons easier", because it's not, it's about making a tedious thing less tedious so that more people can enjoy it. And I'm not even proposing removing the Pantheon of Hallownest as it is! You'd still have your all-the-bosses-ever rush! Maybe even with Nosk 1, Mantis Lords, and Pale Lurker added in! It'd be even longer and even MORE tedious, surely that's a good thing?

EDIT: Sorry - the two paragraphs below were unnecessarily rude. I've edited them into spoiler blocks rather than deleting them; I'll get rid of them entirely if you want.

What do you have to complain about? That filthy casual scrubs might one day attain the rarefied, unique, special thing you had - not by getting an easier version, just without needing to sit through the mind-numbing tedium that is smacking Massive Moss Charger in the face over and over again?

If you really believed that the only thing that mattered was Team Cherry's opinion, you'd shut up, stop dragging out the discussions, and let Team Cherry do what they will. So you can stop accusing me of disguising my intentions when you're doing the exact same.

You'll still have the challenge that gives you all the duration and all the tedium. It's optional now, it'll still be optional. No-one is proposing taking anything away from you. Not even the feeling of being one of the few people able to finish Pantheon 5, because the easy bosses don't add challenge. Maybe you'll lose the feeling of being one of the few people who can be bothered putting up with the boring parts to finish Pantheon 5, though. Would that be that big a deal for you?

[Fluffiest Princess]

Originally posted by Kyle La Kyle:

This is my opinion but... It's a bit disingenous say it's 50:50 since:

-8% "Rework certain bosses, or the order you fight them."

When I read this I think that either PoH is fine and only needs to rearrange the order you fight bosses OR bosses get reworked to be harder and more interesting (and yes, harder, because 90% of people complain it's boring, dull, tedious, etc. so putting nerfs won't change that factor in the slightest). So it leans more into the "50% it's Fine crowd".

-9% "Place the endings elsewhere and within reach for more players?"

I think this one has nothing to do with PoH itself but more with what's behind it... To be fair you could move the ending somewhere else (and make it "less worth" because it was easier to reach) but you would still get complains from people that want the achievement (which it's just that, an achievement). I think it was intended to be a challange so when you reach it, you feel even better once completed it (like the Weathered Mask or the Void Idol on it's 3rd stage) but maybe I'm wrong... so with that in mind I put it on the "50% needs a change crowd".

-5% "Other: Be changed, but not in a way listed above."

You can't add this to any side because you don't know what is... Again it could be changes that make "worse" or "better" (which is really subjective at this point).

So taking these numbers out it would be:
~58% (50% Fine + 8% Rework/Change Order)
~37% (28% of benches + 9% Ending)
~5% (Other)

That's a terrible mischaracterization of a poll that really wasn't very good to start with, since it only let you choose one option. I'm honestly a bit ticked off with whoever created it; I'd make my own but that ship has sailed.

[Songbird]

No, you need to get 112% completion and then go kill any final boss. Like, you know, Hollow Knight or Radiance.

Also LMAO at absolute nonsense like the 5th pantheon taking 45-75 minutes. Try 35-50 tops.