Make Wayward Compass a built-in feature

[DASH.RABBIT]

Seriously, we shouldn't have to spend a valuable charm slot for something that should be built-in, and it shouldn't be as easy to get lost with a map as without.

[Syndiciate]

Why shouldn't you have to? Perhaps TC believed that they were being generous by giving an extra possible slot in the first place to allow people who want to know their location the ability while also giving those who wanted to explore blind the opportunity to do so along with an extra bonus.

Seriously, they could have easily made it so that a player only has ten possible notches rather then eleven. Unless you're arguing that one needs to be able to use AT LEAST eleven notches in order for the game to be fair, your point is moot.

[Sunsetter]

They really should. If it's about difficulty or in-setting realism, they can easily supplement that with something else. As a game mechanic this is simply irritating and unnecessary.

[Nurtemms]

As a charm i think its perfectly fine. Honestly just using one notch isnt much of a problem and after my first play through of the game I pretty much know where things are and where i am.
Plus, think about it in the HK universe. How the heck would the knight just know where it is without the help of a compass/charm?

[Arieth]

Originally posted by Rude Baby Red:

Seriously, we shouldn't have to spend a valuable charm slot for something that should be built-in, and it shouldn't be as easy to get lost with a map as without.

I know I have only about 15ish hours into Hollow knight, But I know this would make the game a little bit easier, So what I think would work is after spending a certain amount of time in a room, On the map the room would look Brighter, Darker, Or whatever, And you would know what room you are in, But not the exact location.


I also just realized that too, Would break the game, Kinda, I dunno \_( ._. )_/

[momkey]

i disagree,
the thrill of hollow knight comes from being able to discover something you wouldn't have if you didn't get lost.

wayward compass is designed to allow player to have easier navigation, but with the cost of wasting 1 notches,
so the player is forced to learn the map or in other word....git gud

the game is tagged difficult what do you expect

and also the dev is already busy with silksong sooo...

[BevansDesign]

Looks like most of the arguments in this forum boil down to two basic points:

1. I'd like this game to be more accessible so I can more easily enjoy it.

2. ♥♥♥♥ you, everything is fine, if you're not as good at this game or as willing to put in as much time and frustration as I am, nothing you say is valid.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Originally posted by BevansDesign:

Looks like most of the arguments in this forum boil down to two basic points:

1. I'd like this game to be more accessible so I can more easily enjoy it.

2. ♥♥♥♥ you, everything is fine, if you're not as good at this game or as willing to put in as much time and frustration as I am, nothing you say is valid.

A game made for everyone is a game played by no one.

Also I never really felt any frustration towards the game, only towards myself until I learned and overcame the challenge the dev's intended me to face and overcome.

They would never remove the original challenge. Sure, you could play an easy mode if they ever implemented one. However, the thought that you're playing an inferior version of the game would nag at you and not allow to enjoy it as much as you might think. Plus it would eventually get just as hard as the beginning of the normal challenge. So then you're facing the same skill wall, but 60 hours in. Do you back out again, or do you push through? And if you do push through, what was really stopping you the first time?

[Syndiciate]

Originally posted by BevansDesign:

Looks like most of the arguments in this forum boil down to two basic points:

1. I'd like this game to be more accessible so I can more easily enjoy it.

2. ♥♥♥♥ you, everything is fine, if you're not as good at this game or as willing to put in as much time and frustration as I am, nothing you say is valid.

I just don't see what's so inaccessible about the compass costing a single charm notch. Especially when you can literally switch it out for something else before a boss fight.

[thorin.hannahs]

I can understand your difficulty with map navigation I had a friend who could never make heads or tails of a Samurai Warriors mini map. There are tricks to knowing where you are without the charm, you can look at the shape of the room you are in or whether or not you traveled vertically, horizontally and how many "doorways" you went through. Maybe if you tried those little things you could use that one charm slot for something more useful such as Sprint Master or Nailmaster's Glory. If you plan to give the game more then one play through then you may find in subsequent play throughs you won't need the charm at all.

[lPaladinl]

I can appreciate that there's an option to turn off the map for people who really want that, but doing it through the charms system I consider stupid.

One of the biggest improvements to the Metroid Series was the automated Map. Symphony of the Night as well was well known for it's map feature. Zero Mission and Fusion were notable for their improvements to the automap feature. Every Metroidvania Castlevania shipped with good map systems...

etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by Syndiciate:

Originally posted by BevansDesign:

Looks like most of the arguments in this forum boil down to two basic points:

1. I'd like this game to be more accessible so I can more easily enjoy it.

2. ♥♥♥♥ you, everything is fine, if you're not as good at this game or as willing to put in as much time and frustration as I am, nothing you say is valid.

I just don't see what's so inaccessible about the compass costing a single charm notch. Especially when you can literally trade it out for something else before a boss fight.

This is what we call tedium. Tedium is not beneficial to anyone. While some people tolerate it more than others, it doesn't improve the game or gameplay, it doesn't improve the user experience, it only serves to waste the player's time.

Better question is why is it not in the Options Menu? Why can you not just toggle it on/off once for your playthrough and then never have to touch it again unless you WANT to?

If you want the map to be given to the player as a reward in the game, fine. But you can still do so without using the charms system and forcing the player to waste a charm AND have to hotswap if they feel like they really need that one slot back.

Zelda games for example give you maps as rewards in dungeons majority of the time. However you can still toggle off the minimap and then never look at the actual map if you don't want to.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

One possible option could have been for the compass to be simply a one time thing you buy from Iselda like the quill. So if you don’t want or need the compass you could simply choose to not buy it and save geo, and at the same time not be a missing charm. The only problem then would be it becomes an all or nothing situation, as a charm you can at least toggle it on or off as you want. It also does create an interesting scenario where it incentivizes you not to use the compass and explore without guidance.

[DASH.RABBIT]

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

I can appreciate that there's an option to turn off the map for people who really want that, but doing it through the charms system I consider stupid.

One of the biggest improvements to the Metroid Series was the automated Map. Symphony of the Night as well was well known for it's map feature. Zero Mission and Fusion were notable for their improvements to the automap feature. Every Metroidvania Castlevania shipped with good map systems...

etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by Syndiciate:

I just don't see what's so inaccessible about the compass costing a single charm notch. Especially when you can literally trade it out for something else before a boss fight.

This is what we call tedium. Tedium is not beneficial to anyone. While some people tolerate it more than others, it doesn't improve the game or gameplay, it doesn't improve the user experience, it only serves to waste the player's time.

Better question is why is it not in the Options Menu? Why can you not just toggle it on/off once for your playthrough and then never have to touch it again unless you WANT to?

If you want the map to be given to the player as a reward in the game, fine. But you can still do so without using the charms system and forcing the player to waste a charm AND have to hotswap if they feel like they really need that one slot back.

Zelda games for example give you maps as rewards in dungeons majority of the time. However you can still toggle off the minimap and then never look at the actual map if you don't want to.

This is exactly how I feel. It's not that I don't like exploring, or that I don't like challenge, but it feels more like needless frustration to me. It's fun to explore when I first look for the map, but once I already *have* the map, I don't understand why I have to spend a charm point to enable one of its features. Heck, I'd rather it be some sort of high cost addition from that lady that sells map markers and stuff. Make me earn it, but not have to shuffle badges around with it. Maybe even make it available after a boss? I'm sure there could be another way to toggle it on and off after. Heck, make it a zero cost badge?

Especially when I'm in the early game, I'd rather be able to use more badges against normal enemies as much as bosses, but not at the cost of navigation. I've tried looking at the shape of rooms, but it tends to be pretty inconsistent with what I actually see 90% of the time. rooms are very non-descript on the map. If you get a bunch of long corridors, they all look the same. If I have to earn the navigation, that'd be okay. It'd be something to look forward to. But I don't look forward to juggling badges around trying to balance what I need with something that should just be basic QOL. It kinda feels like fake difficulty.

[Syndiciate]

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

This is what we call tedium. Tedium is not beneficial to anyone. While some people tolerate it more than others, it doesn't improve the game or gameplay, it doesn't improve the user experience, it only serves to waste the player's time.

Let's be clear here, this is what YOU call tedium. I've already explained how it improves gameplay. Those who wish to explore blind but not feel handicapped for doing so get an extra notch to help with exploration and those who believe they'd get more enjoyment out of the game from knowing their location can use it at the expense of a one notch charm.

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

Better question is why is it not in the Options Menu? Why can you not just toggle it on/off once for your playthrough and then never have to touch it again unless you WANT to?

This is something that could've been done, sure. But then you'd have threads complaining about handicapping players who simply enjoy exploring without knowing their location. People can and have complained about literally anything in this game because, outside of threads about glitches, all complaints directed at it have been utterly subjective. Ultimately, this is the path Team Cherry chose to take and, since it's one of the least offensive routes, I can't say I find it to be much of an issue. I don't have an alternative I'd want to see replace it anyways.

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

If you want the map to be given to the player as a reward in the game, fine. But you can still do so without using the charms system and forcing the player to waste a charm AND have to hotswap if they feel like they really need that one slot back.

Considering you're not likely to be running the same charm setup you would when you're exploring as you would against a boss, I don't see how shaving to swap out the compass before and after a boss fight is a relevant issue. We've already gone through the positives and negatives of the ability costing a single notch. It appeases a certain segment of the fanbase and upsets another as pretty much any decision they made would. You can't please everybody.

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

Zelda games for example give you maps as rewards in dungeons majority of the time. However you can still toggle off the minimap and then never look at the actual map if you don't want to.

Addressed above.

[lPaladinl]

Being forced to go into an inventory and swap your gear before every tough area or big battle is the very definition of tedium.

You might as well argue that having to go into your inventory to take on/off iron boots in Ocarina of Time is not tedious, and that the OoT3D Remaster didn't vastly improve the Water Temple by giving you a much more streamlined way to equip the boots rather than forcing you to go through menus.

Same thing for future Zelda games that had iron boots... they didn't want you going through inventories all of the time to use them.

Also yes, you could appease everyone with the change I already suggested before. Add the ability to turn off the map system IN THE OPTIONS MENU. So you can toggle it on/off ONCE, or HOWEVER MUCH AS YOU LIKE, REMOVING ALL TEDIUM.

Everyone wins. No one has to complain. Set your option and be happy. Instead we have to deal with hotswapping charms and wasting time every single time you feel the need to do it, which for some people is all of the time.

[Tat011]

The idea of wayward compass is that you eventually stop using it. The game makes it easy for you to know where you are, check the room's shape, where are it's entrances are located (and if they lead to something marked on the map, like a stag station) and you will likely know where you are since no 2 rooms in an area are the same, and if this fails you can do the same in an adjacent room. No compass required. (Though if i could change this charm i would fuse it with the one that collects geo for you, to better justify it's 1 charm slot)