Initiative Build Thoughts

[MeyeC]

http://tumult.cc/bb-calc.html?1-9&2-3&3-5&4-2&3-3&5-4&6-2&7-1&5-2&3-1

So I'm playing around with deserters and retired soldiers right now and I am trying to come up with a way to make a brother effective when their fatigue and health start low, but already have decent combat stats. With a retired soldier you have a slight penalty to initiative, but I have a guy with talents in it.

I'm planning on giving him a multiheaded flail with fearsome - plan being to make his opponent route in fear through moral checking constantly rather than beating him to death. What do you all think?

[Whatever100500]

3H flail doesn't have synergy the way you'd want it to with any perks, Headhunter is almost always a waste of perk too.

Just check the recent guide by turtle225 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2001196860

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

3H flail doesn't have synergy the way you'd want it to with any perks, Headhunter is almost always a waste of perk too.

Just check the recent guide by turtle225 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2001196860

Everyone should read it, tbh. It is like the bible of perks.

Originally posted by MeyeC:

What do you all think?

There are lots of ways to build retired soldiers, and it really comes down to the individual bro when devising a build.

I tried to stick to the shielded de-buffer theme:

http://tumult.cc/bb-calc.html?1-3&2-3&3-3&3-1&4-3&6-3&5-4&7-1

This guy uses a hammer, which give minimum health damage of 10, which benefits from fearsome. It is also highly useful for applying poison if you are inclined.

I took off overwhelm, which is a good perk, but this guy's goal is to hit things and cause them to panic, apply poison, etc. Relentless is less useful because I took off overwhelm.

Student is less useful than it seems and is often a trap. Colossus is a solid first pick.

Nimble will greatly improve how long your brother lives. Forge is better for individuals with lots of fatigue, but I'm guessing that's not how it is. It is best to always take Nimble or Forge.

When leveling, I suggest investing in melee attack, health, melee defense mostly. Maybe a sprinkling in fatigue and morale if he needs it. The returns on investing in initiative are not worth the cost (almost always).

Good luck!

[suejak]

Interesting. Abel had a good post once about what perks work with the 3h flail and which don't -- not sure if all are covered in the guide. but probably. As said, you can see Overwhelm / Fearsome don't give 3 procs per attack, sadly.

I agree with Ozy that a non-initiative build would probably work better in this case... (But you could still take Dodge if you want to stack defense to help cover low HP.) His build should work fine.

IMO if you're going for perks like Overwhelm, the most important factor is base initiative. Each star is equal to +5 in init assuming you stack init (I'd rather not), and retired soldier is like 95-100 vs. a thief / gambler / juggler's 112-120. 120 base is sorta like 100 with 4 stars... With something like 135 init pre-gear (three +5s on a 120 base), even the most fat-intensive Nimble build with Relentless + Pathfinder will Overwhelm basically everything every turn in all situations (excluding super-fast exceptions).

If you have a good combat bro with iffy HP / fat and too low init for Overwhelm or a fencer, I think the best ideas are to stack defense on a low-fat 2h or Duelist build. 2h mace is an easy recommendation. (Many possibilities, though.) Nimble and BF both OK with advantages and disadvantages.

One bone to pick: I think "the returns on investing in initiative are not worth the cost (almost always)" is wrong. There are plenty of situations where investing in initiative is good with good returns. But on a 115-120+ base. But-but that's another post

[Anarchy]

you can also grab a mod off Nexus that makes it so the 3handed flail procs all that stuff with each individual hit.

But vanilla-wise. Shrug.

[Rude$t]

Probably wouldn't advise it for this brother. Initiative builds can work but I would only use them on 110+ (preferred 120 or 130) base initiative characters so you can pump stats elsewhere. Rat Catchers, Thieves, Fisherman, and the like..So, high base starting initiative is more important than talent. But the flail is a no-go. Fearsome is also the only perk in the game that I don't think there is a good enough use case for.

I would use something more like this as the base for an initiative build:

http://tumult.cc/bb-calc.html?1-9&2-3&3-5&5-4&5-2&1-8&1-3&1-6&6-3

You could go several directions with it with the last two perks. And even cut Relentless in a pinch. Sword Duelist, Dagger Overwhelm build, 2 handed + Reach Advantage, lone wolf for a flanker build. Won't be the most killy bro but he'll be really hard to hit.

[Rude$t]

I have been messing with Deserter Origin a lot so I have some experience in salvaging them. TLDR: I just pile stat perks and passives on them and push them into roles geared towards crowd control.

2 Handed Mace bros, Rather Nimble or Battleforged, don't actually require much in the way of stats or perks to be effective. Whip/Polearm is another easy but impactful build to pull off. Crossbowmen, while not as roflstompy as Archer/Throw, have a good niche that they fill in crowd control goblin crossbow and killing enemies like Chosen and have relatively low stat needs and preform well vs everything but undead. There is also the humble 1 handed mace/rotate/shield fodder bro build to consider.

Even a pretty terrible bro can pull off Battle Forged 2h Mace since he never needs to level fatigue. Load up on passive perks and stat perks. Level HP, Melee, Melee Defense every level. Use some of those HP rolls for resolve. Bam. Done. (As a side note, of course a better brother would want to level fatigue and include indom in the build, but the wall of stats approach has a low barrier of entry).

Nimble 2h Handed mace can take advantage of Dodge and can go grab indom since they'll likely have the fatigue pool to use it in situations that call for it--like when engaging an Unhold or surrounded. A nimble 2h sword guy is also pretty doable with the right bro.

Whip/Polearm can skimp on defensive stats and just focus on HP/Fatigue/Melee thanks to nimble. Footwork, Indom, or Rotate can save him from a bad spot in melee. Sometimes deserters start with a high base ranged defense, which is good, because the AI will be less likely to target him.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by suejak:

Interesting. Abel had a good post once about what perks work with the 3h flail and which don't -- not sure if all are covered in the guide. but probably. As said, you can see Overwhelm / Fearsome don't give 3 procs per attack, sadly.

I agree with Ozy that a non-initiative build would probably work better in this case... (But you could still take Dodge if you want to stack defense to help cover low HP.) His build should work fine.

I'll take this as an endorsement lol.

Shielded de-buffer isn't typically my style, but I tried to stick to what the OP envisioned.

Originally posted by suejak:

If you have a good combat bro with iffy HP / fat and too low init for Overwhelm or a fencer, I think the best ideas are to stack defense on a low-fat 2h or Duelist build. 2h mace is an easy recommendation. (Many possibilities, though.) Nimble and BF both OK with advantages and disadvantages.

I agree with this. Mace will get a light nerfing in the DLC so enjoy it while you can lol

[XuanKamoFurio]

if you are going for initiative builds, you need nimble,

Overwhelming and dodge are also mandatory.

I'm ok without relentless

[disnegativ]

I wouldn't do proper initiative builds on backgrounds with normal or exceptionally low initiative. Maybe pick up some free stats w/ dodge if you go nimble w/ a low fatigue expenditure build (a normal polearm brother e.g.).

W/ gamblers, thieves, quick brawlers etc., I started playing around with debuffing shield brothers instead of more dedicated tanks. They look slightly different to those I've seen elsewhere http://tumult.cc/bb-calc.html?1-3&2-3&3-3&4-6&5-2&6-3&5-4&1-8&1-6&3-6

If you pick a low fatigue + accuracy bonus weapon (sword or spear) + the mastery to reduce attack cost to 8, relentless is not required. This gives you a surprisingly sturdy shield brother that can do damage while overwhelming the most dangerous opponent. And it works well even with very limited fatigue pool and with mediocre attack. As long as your initiative is slightly above 100 after equipment you should be able to overwhelm almost all opponents you face except goblins / wolves. Contrary to public opinion it is worth raising ini to reach the threshold if you start close enough imo (light armor, heater shield, arming sword are 35).

Retired soldier w/ colossus has pretty average HP and otherwise pretty good stats except fatigue, so most builds except fatigue intensive battleforged AoE should be possible. Deserters I would put in the second rank almost always (polearm, whip/polearm, thrower/polearm).