Nimble Calculations | 42%, 47%, and 55% Lines.

[turtle225]

EDIT (1/16/2021): Reworked this analysis due to recent attachment re-balance. Previously these tests assumed Bone Plate attachment. I have now removed the BP and am testing with no attachment. I've also reformatted the post for easier reading, and I've changed the metric returned to avg. number of hits to die instead of just adding the total number of hits taken because that old metric was kind of meaningless except for comparison sake. Avg. hits until death is more understandable. Conclusions have remained the same. Comments have outdated data.

EDIT (8/15/20): Updated Gladiator + Assassin line due to the nerf of the Gladiator helmet to -13 Fat.

EDIT (8/13/20): I added 4 more enemies to the test group in the calculator and a few other updates. I've rerun the numbers. Blazing Deserts also introduced new armor, notably the Assassin set with 140 (Assassin Metal Mask) and 120 (Assassin Robes). The 140/120 set is a perfect -15 for Nimble, and clearly the best Nimble line. It is held back by the rarity/difficulty of obtaining the armor. I've updated the OP with the new calculations and put in an Assassin line for reference. Information in the comments may contain outdated information.

Introduction

We've previously looked at 40% Nimble lines and how they are affected by things like Gifted and Brow here. Let's now take a look at higher% Nimble options, and try and see when it might make sense to use them. TLDR in the final thoughts at the end.

Methodology

How I'm going to score each test is the average mean number of hits they survive against all 35 enemies (the test will give 35 means, then I mean the means for the score). The enemies are drawn from all factions and most weapon types are represented. However, there is a bias toward more dangerous enemies (ie: 4 Chosen tests, no Weidergangers). Enemy perks and weapon logic is factored.

120/95/40% (Sallet + Leather Lamellar) and 190/65/40% (Barbute + Gambeson) and 140/120/40% (Assassin Mask + Assassin Robe) Nimble scores from the tests in the above thread are provided for reference.

The new Nimble lines being tested are as follows:

• 120/115/42% (Sallet + Basic Mail Shirt)
  
• 120/160/47% (Sallet + Noble Mail)
  
• 225/120/51% (Gladiator + Assassin Robes)
  
• 190/160/55% (Barbute + Noble Mail)

Assumptions

• Nimble, Colossus, and no attachment are assumed.
  
• Enemies will have their respective perks/weapon skills in play.
  
• 100% hit chance

Disclaimers

• This is an obvious oversimplification compared to true gameplay conditions.
  
• Scoring is not perfect. For example, surviving a Boondock Bow shot is given the same weight as surviving a Chosen Mace. This interaction favors the heavier armor, as they do better against the weak attackers.
  
• The score doesn't tell the full story of course. Just because a line scores the highest in the enemy gauntlet, doesn't necessarily mean it is always to best choice.
  
• Attachments are not factored, and may have differing value depending on the line used (ie Bone Plates would offer better return on Nimble lines that are biased toward more head armor).
  
• The calculator does not factor hit chances.
  
• The calculations are obviously biased to the 35 enemies I tested against and the weapons I have given them. I can't test everything.

Results

Recall that defender has Nimble, Colossus, and no attachment. Score is the average mean number of hits to die against the 35 test enemies.

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
120/95/40%	5.49	6.28	7.07
190/65/40%	5.41	6.31	7.15
140/120/40%	6.08	6.89	7.68

Nimble Line	80 hp	100 hp	120 hp
120/115/42%	5.65	6.38	7.13
120/160/47%	5.91	6.6	7.28
225/120/51%	5.68	6.37	7.07
190/160/55%	5.93	6.56	7.18

Conclusions

• New Assassin Robes are really good, and should be used if available in most cases.
  
• As expected, relative gain from heavier lines decreases as hp increases.
  
• Gains from heavier lines tend to be rather poor for the FAT cost associated.
  
• Be cautious, just because the heavier lines tend to score higher does not mean they are always or even generally "better."
  
• At 80hp, the heavier lines are looking decent.
  
• At 120hp, the heavier lines are looking sad.

The following is based on me digging into the numbers in the 100hp group.

• Each line was winning against some enemies and losing against others, making there be no consistent winner/loser.
  
• Heavier options were better against spam type attackers, like Goblins (not Impaler) and Swords.
  
• Heavier options were usually better against Cleaver enemies.
  
• Lighter options were usually better against heavy attackers, like 2Handers and Lindwurms.
  
• Barbute/Noble's best advantage was against Necrosavants and Master Archers (they have HH, which works against them there). It was sometimes losing to the lighter Sallet/Noble line.

Final thoughts

Going for the heavier lines seems to have some merit if your hp isn't very high and you don't mind the associated FAT/monetary cost. However, it is not universally better, and will make you weaker against some matchups. At high hp values the heavy lines aren't worth the cost.

Survivability gains per FAT cost of higher armors is usually poor.

Heavier armor lines tend to favor durability against weaker attackers, at the cost of durability against heavier attackers.

The new Assassin Robes are so good that they should be used if available in most circumstances.

Thanks for reading.

To see an analysis with attachments, please refer to the following link:
─ Nimble With Attachments Calculations

[suejak]

Interesting!

I think of BB as a granular game where generalizations don't often work, and as you say this strikes me as particularly true in this case.

But something this thread may bias me towards in the future is putting my new lowish-HP very-high-def Nimblers in rather sturdy 55%... (At least vs. "most" enemies.)

[turtle225]

Here's a follow up. I took out the six weakest attackers, like Ambushers, shielded attackers, Direwolves, etc. Let's see how much this affected the results. In theory, the heavy lines should suffer from this change.

Note that with less attackers, the numbers are going to be less overall. Don't compare these numbers with the numbers in the op, rather pay attention to the gap between light/heavier compared to the gap in the op.

80hp
120/9540%: 143
190/6540%: 148

120/11542%: 145
120/16047%: 149
190/16055%: 152

100hp
120/9540%: 160
190/65/40%: 165

120/115/42%: 162
120/160/47%: 164
190/160/55%: 166

120hp
120/9540%: 177
190/65/40%: 184

120/115/42%: 177
120/160/47%: 178
190/160/55%: 180

Indeed, the gap between the lighter and heavier lines have decreased in this scenario. To some extent this is expected with a lower number of attackers, but it also does reinforce the idea that the benefit of the heavier lines is skewed toward weaker attackers.

Obviously weak attackers exist and are common in game, but if you are more worried about more dangerous enemies than the heavier lines aren't really doing you many favors outside of Cleaver enemies and Split Man.

[Falka]

Currently I don't have the time to play the game, but still like to read your posts turtle. It's great to see in-depth analysis.

[Abel]

Thanks for the numbers! Could the results be displayed as mean per enemy to get a rough idea of how many hits can be survived on average?

[nightworg]

Thanks Turtle. Interesting.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Abel:

Thanks for the numbers! Could the results be displayed as mean per enemy to get a rough idea of how many hits can be survived on average?

Yeah.

Table will show mean hits to die on average against the enemy test group. The first group had 31 enemies. The second group had 25 enemies where I took out the weakest enemies from the sample. With the weakest enemies removed, the average mean hits to die should fall. The final column will show the difference between the 31 enemy test and the 25 enemy test.

80hp

Nimble Line	31E	25E	Diff.
120/95/40%	6.65	5.72	-.93
190/65/40%	6.74	5.92	-.82
120/115/42%	6.77	5.8	-.97
120/160/47%	7.06	5.96	-1.1
190/160/55%	7.19	6.08	-1.11

100hp

Nimble Line	31E	25E	Diff.
120/95/40%	7.48	6.4	-1.08
190/65/40%	7.61	6.6	-1.01
120/115/42%	7.58	6.48	-1.1
120/160/47%	7.74	6.56	-1.18
190/160/55%	7.84	6.64	-1.2

120hp

Nimble Line	31E	25E	Diff.
120/95/40%	8.26	7.08	-1.18
190/65/40%	8.48	7.36	-1.12
120/115/42%	8.29	7.08	-1.21
120/160/47%	8.42	7.12	-1.3
190/160/55%	8.45	7.2	-1.25

This is another illustration of what we've already discussed. The higher armor lines are more beneficial against weaker attackers.

Another takeaway here is that the 190/65/40% line which tends to score well is hurt the least by the removal of the weaker attackers. This means that it performs a bit worse against these types of enemies than the other options, despite having a high score overall.

[Abel]

Perfect 👍

[Trappist]

very interesting.

Turtle i dont know if you can do this, but i'd be really interested to see a comparison between BF 400 / 400 and top nimble say 140 HP & 200 / 200 at 40% full nimble.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Trappist:

very interesting.

Turtle i dont know if you can do this, but i'd be really interested to see a comparison between BF 400 / 400 and top nimble say 140 HP & 200 / 200 at 40% full nimble.

Yeah I can do that, although comparing Nimble to Forge with this test is a bit dangerous to take at face value.

Highest armor is 400/400 Emperor Armor. Otherwise it would be 375/400 with just regular Famed. The Nimble dream would be 250/200/41%. Alternatively we could do 175/200/40%, but even at enormous 140 hp that extra helmet is better than 1% more Nimble. We'll give Nimble Bone Plates and Forge AFP.

31 Enemy test group.
-- 80hp, 400/400 Forge w/ AFP: 415. 13.39 hits to die on average.
-- 140hp, 250/200 Nimble w/ BP: 375. 12.1 hits to die on average.

25 Enemy test group - weakest 6 enemies removed.
-- 80hp, 400/400 Forge w/ AFP: 270. 10.8 hits to die on average.
-- 140hp, 250/200 Nimble w/ BP: 256. 10.24 hits to die on average.

Probably not surprising, but Forge is winning overall here. Nimble wins in some matchups. Removing the weakest attackers brings them a lot closer, but there's still some skew cases that heavily favor Forge here.

Either option is incredible. The odds of finding perfect Nimble armor is basically impossible. At least Forge is guaranteed a 400/400 set from the legendary locations, but if you've already beaten those it doesn't matter all that much.

[Trappist]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by Trappist:

very interesting.

Turtle i dont know if you can do this, but i'd be really interested to see a comparison between BF 400 / 400 and top nimble say 140 HP & 200 / 200 at 40% full nimble.

Yeah I can do that, although comparing Nimble to Forge with this test is a bit dangerous to take at face value.

Highest armor is 400/400 Emperor Armor. Otherwise it would be 375/400 with just regular Famed. The Nimble dream would be 250/200/41%. Alternatively we could do 175/200/40%, but even at enormous 140 hp that extra helmet is better than 1% more Nimble. We'll give Nimble Bone Plates and Forge AFP.

31 Enemy test group.
-- 80hp, 400/400 Forge w/ AFP: 415. 13.39 hits to die on average.
-- 140hp, 250/200 Nimble w/ BP: 375. 12.1 hits to die on average.

25 Enemy test group - weakest 6 enemies removed.
-- 80hp, 400/400 Forge w/ AFP: 270. 10.8 hits to die on average.
-- 140hp, 250/200 Nimble w/ BP: 256. 10.24 hits to die on average.

Probably not surprising, but Forge is winning overall here. Nimble wins in some matchups. Removing the weakest attackers brings them a lot closer, but there's still some skew cases that heavily favor Forge here.

Either option is incredible. The odds of finding perfect Nimble armor is basically impossible. At least Forge is guaranteed a 400/400 set from the legendary locations, but if you've already beaten those it doesn't matter all that much.

Thats really interesting cheers! I find on most play throughs i can find some very good named noble armour by doing caravan runs and checking the towns nice and regular!

[Estieukua]

Originally posted by turtle225:

The odds of finding perfect Nimble armor is basically impossible.

The odds of finding not-too-far-from-perfect rare Nimble armours has always seemed quite high to me (better than the odds of finding OP rare heavy armours).

It's not especially rare to get one rare steppe helm and one nightcloak in a campaign, and they are always quite close to perfect (and allow you to add bone plates or AFP for further protection).

In addition to nightcloaks, there is the light, blue, mail-studded armour that can start with just over 185 durability and with a fatigue cost as low as -9. It can be given bone plates or AFP, or even a +40/-4 attachment (taking durability into the 220s while still reducing HP damage by ~half).

With the addition of LPR, some of the lighter rare "heavy" armours can become Nimble-worthy. The blue/white/gold heraldic mails can start with durability just over 260 and with a fatigue cost as low as -17 (-13 with LPR). The best of these allow almost perfect Nimble (with a wolf helm) or a HP damage reduction ~half (with rare steppe helms).

The rare golden scale armours and the rare green "sellsword" ones (253-325 durability) can become light enough (with LPR) to allow ~50% HP damage reduction in combination with a wolf helm (even taking ~60% of HP damage with a rare steppe helm would be very good at that level of armour).

The rare barbarian fur armour often has -8 fatigue and ~150 durability. Clearly not as good as nightcloaks, but still allowing near-perfect Nimble with a rare steppe helm or still better than 50% HP damage reduction with a +40/-4 attachment that takes durability close to 200. The rare black/brown padded leather armours are not quite as good.

The rare barbarian chain armour has 209-238 durability and -15 to -21 fatigue. If near its lightest, it can be given LPR and give near-perfect Nimble with a wolf helm (or still better than 50% HP damage reduction with a rare steppe helm), or it can be given bone plates and give better than 50% HP damage reduction with a wolf helm.

There are also the rare barbarian skull helms (or nose-horn helms) that can have a fatigue cost as low as -9 or -11 while giving 231-288 durability. An efficient one of these, combined with bone plates on one of the most efficient rare body armours, would be exceptionally strong.

In addition to the four helms mentioned above (wolfs, steppes, skulls and nose-horns), the rare norse/owl helms and the standard ZHHs and barbutes can offer strong combinations with suitable efficient rare body armours. That's 7 helm varieties, to go with 7 or 8 body varieties, not every combination anywhere close to perfect, but still plenty of possibilities for very good combinations.

Your results show lines with higher armour and lower Nimbleness becoming inefficient as weaker enemies are removed ... but what about when a portion of higher-threat enemy attacks are deliberately weakened via the timely usage of Indom, and/or the timely application of dazing, stunning, disarming etc., and/or by manoeuvring the endangered to safer positions with rotation/footwork?

For example, someone in very light armour can quickly have all their armour removed by the odd melee hit and/or a bit of ranged fire, and then almost immediately come under threat from lots of orcs/barbarians/etc. with high-damage bleed weapons (to which their HPs are already directly exposed).

In the same scenario, someone in heavier armour with less Nimbleness would still have a decent amount of armour left and could use Indom to slow the loss of armour, delay bleeding and minimize HP loss. Allies could then apply daze/stun/disarm effects to some of the threatening enemies (and/or manoeuvre the vulnerable one to a safer spot) before HPs come under direct assault.

In other words, having more armour can sometimes give you more time to anticipate and negate/diminish sudden bursts of high-risk enemy attacks, while having less armour can leave you exposed to sudden bursts before you have any chance to react.

For the same reason, I still wonder whether AFP could be desirable on heavier Nimble lines, despite being clearly inferior according to every abstract calculation.

[turtle225]

Yes, there are many famed armors that can be good.

Originally posted by Estieukua:

Your results show lines with higher armour and lower Nimbleness becoming inefficient as weaker enemies are removed ... but what about when a portion of higher-threat enemy attacks are deliberately weakened via the timely usage of Indom, and/or the timely application of dazing, stunning, disarming etc., and/or by manoeuvring the endangered to safer positions with rotation/footwork?

This is a weakness of the calculator. It can only generalize and cannot fully capture the dynamic nature of the game.

Indom does favor higher armor, so if you are intending to use a lot of Indom then the Noble Mail line benefits more from that than the lighter options.

Originally posted by Estieukua:

For the same reason, I still wonder whether AFP could be desirable on heavier Nimble lines, despite being clearly inferior according to every abstract calculation.

AFP really doesn't do much when you already have Nimble and only have 160 Noble Mail. Maybe with a famed option.

[Estieukua]

I haven't really bothered buying any noble mail in my most recent campaigns. On balance, taking into consideration the potential for Indom and armour conservation, it only feels about on a par with the free raider/reaver armours, but is infinitely more expensive. I do buy damaged mail shirts from citadels for a slightly "heavier" option (mainly just because they look cool with direwolf mantles and a ZHH).

But many efficient famed armours are insanely good, and either bones or AFP is a great addition. But a thing with bones is that they allow you one massive free hit to body armour, but after that you can't visually tell whether that hit has been taken, and it's impossible to remember who has used their free hit if you have lots of guys with that attachment. With AFP and still ~half of a heavier armour left, you can plan ahead to tank a tight spot, knowing that armour+AFP+Indom+Nimble will minimize HP exposure.

[Millionerd]

I wanted to add that u can exchange the attachments of the gladiator harness, this makes up for the choice of a gladiator helmet with a gladiator harness with light padding/ Bone Plating what gives u the choice of 225/40 for 16/17 fatigue. Its easier to obtain than the assasin gear and provides nearly as good values as Assassin Gear!