Current consensus/advice on Throwing Spear?

[Kill'em ALL]

Now that we all had plenty of time to play around with it what do you guys think about the Throwing Spear (not to be confused with Javelins)? Do you use it regularly, save it for special cases, or just ignore it? Can you share some advice about it?

The general consensus in previous thread (https://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/1742227264190348413/ - well over a year old, hence a new one rather than a necro) was that while it is a potentially useful tool it is too niche and expensive for a single-use item. I feel like that remains true still.

I really WANT to like it but find that it is not pulling it's own weight. Shield breaking in general is a tactic of debatable usefulness against every enemy but Schrat (personally I usually find the extra damage from double grip more troublesome than added defence) and the Throwing Spear, being more of a dedicated shield-destroying tool rather than a damaging weapon, is not really THAT good at it. You need to use several for a noticeable difference during tough battles and wouldn't use them for easier battles, because, well... it's a one-use item.

At first it's not affordable because of the crowns and then it becomes troublesome because of the extra inventory space needed. The fact that it is destroyed on use makes me reluctant to just use it for "regular" fights, so it's the usual "magic potion dilemma" that could be fixed if only the spear was refilled/repaired after the battle. As it is right now I always find a spare (pole)axe or an extra net (which REALLY makes a difference when deployed, especially when reinforced) to be a better choice when presented with inventory management puzzle.

What do others think about the idea of Throwing Mastery increasing the shield damage inflicted? I'd like that because I'm itching for a good reason to carry TS around but feel like it might make dedicated throwers outright OP.

Your thoughts?

[Scathe]

I don't use them. I also don't want them buffed because raiders use them. I feel they have a place in the BB world already, as a tool for your enemies.

[Kill'em ALL]

Originally posted by Scathe:

I don't use them. I also don't want them buffed because raiders use them. I feel they have a place in the BB world already, as a tool for your enemies.

Well, if they were made refillable like javelins they wouldn't be buffed as far as enemies are concerned but would be of improved utility to the player. Which is not obligatory of course but personally I'd like to see that.
They could cost like 10 ammo per refill to maintain a significant cost per use and prevent brainless spamming, or make you choose which ranged weapon you want to put the emphasis on in general.

[turtle225]

I am in favor of them being refillable for an ammunition cost. It does indeed suffer heavily from "magic potion syndrome."

I never use them right now, and the only encounter where I might bother would be Goblins to knock out Skirmisher shields so that my archers have an easier time countersniping. Since the Gobbos are just Bola spamming anyway destroying their shield has no downside.

I've never actually tested how many Throwing Spears it takes to break a Footman Heater or Ancient Dead Tower. I guess it could help there as those guys are super squishy without their shields, but it isn't like I have trouble with them enough to warrant buying a bunch of Throwing Spears for one battle.

Maybe half their cost in stores? They are like 100 gold or something right? I can find Nets for 50 which are a lot more useful. Or make them refillable for ammunition cost and raise the base price in stores.

[Solitary Traveler]

I like them and find them useful, but only when there's plenty of coin to spare. They should be refillable from ammunition; make one spear cost 5 ammo units or so.

I also think their damage, effectiveness vs armor, and armor penetration could stand to be bumped up a bit as well.

[Kill'em ALL]

Originally posted by turtle225:

I've never actually tested how many Throwing Spears it takes to break a Footman Heater or Ancient Dead Tower.

Didn't test it either, but assuming the wiki is up to date (especially as far as Shield Expert is concerned) it's easy enough to check:

Human shields without Shield Expert (Mercenaries, Brigand Thugs and Raiders, Barbarian Thralls and Reavers, Disguised Bandits, Caravan Hands, Hedge Knights):
Round - 1
Heater - 2
Kite - 2

Human Shields with Shield Expert (Caravan Guards, Footmen, Brigand Leaders, Knights):
Round - 2
Heater - 3
Kite - 4 (!)

ALL ancient undead unit/shields combos - 2

Orc Feral - 1
Orc Metal - 3

Fallen Hero:
Decayed Heater - 1
Decayed Kite - 2

Schrat Shield - 2 (regrowable)

So for great majority of enemies you'll need at least 2 spears for one shield, and those that you can actually destroy by just one you probably do not want to benefit from Double Grip. Those enemies that you can actually weaken by depriving of a shield will need 3 or even 4 spears apiece, an expense unfeasible for all but the most difficult battles

Ancient Undead seem like the only really good target as you can mess up their Shieldwall tactic really well by destroying just 2 shields... Still, you need to pay at least 400 crowns for than single-time-only advantage, not a good deal in my book.

Schrats would make a good target, with a shield that you absolutely need to destroy needing only 2... but they can simply regrow it next turn. It might be used as a way to minimise their attacks but if you are at the campaign stage that allows you to just spam TS like arrows you should already have a good enough tank bro to eat up the attacks. And a couple of Poleaxes to spare for risk-free shield removal.

So again, Throwing Spear appears to be a very niche tool that is one way or another not worth it most of the time.

[turtle225]

It is possible that Axe Mastery improves the shield damage as it does so for other random shield smashing abilities like on the Greatsword, for what that is worth.

I would consider using them if they refilled for ammo cost, but I'm not very interested in spending 100s of gold for marginal benefit when I'm not going to have problems winning a battle without them.

I guess bringing a handful to Goblin City could be useful if your frontliners are just farting around body blocking. I might try bringing some next time I try it.

[Abel]

Yes, as you pointed out the problem is that breaking shields is not very attractive. Shield Expert also makes it unnecessarily harder. The inherent limitations of the TS does not help either with making it a viable tool. It can be reworked in many ways, but it sure does need changing.

[w.f.schepel]

A guy with a long axe smashes up shields quite nicely and doesn't need to replenish. Throwing spears can be a bit of a pain early game to play against, but I fail to see any reasonable use for the player. Then again, maybe if you build a team that is fully dedicated on throwing? Even then, the problem as I see it is that one is limited in the number of fighters one can field at any one time. If there were room for more, the strict inventory game changes a bit.

[suejak]

I'll avoid using his name unless he doesn't feel like responding, but I recently discovered this guide: https://battlebrothers.fandom.com/wiki/Adrenaline_Junkie_Company

This player is super experienced and I like his posts when I can decipher them :)

His guide includes this line: "I always have at least two characters who can one-shot tower/kite shields in direct melee engagement (with greataxes or rusty barbarian equivalents) and one-shot schrat/heater shields from a safer distance of 2 tiles (with longaxes). Quick Hands is an essential perk for these characters."

I'd be curious to know how he feels about the throwing spear!

I do think smashing shields is good sometimes, especially when you're not grinding a billion days. I've occasionally used it vs. things like footmen, AD, and goblins. Obviously the conventional wisdom is it's basically never good, though.

[Grigsey]

Uses I've found: Throwing experts get one each. Use to murder chosen. That's about it.

What about heavy throwing stuff? Use the throwing spears to murder their throwers so you can loot their heavy throwing stuff before you have the heavy throwing stuff.

Yeah pretty much just early to early-mid game killing of chosen.

So those barbarian camps that spawn at the start of games guarded by a few chosen? That.

[Estieukua]

The heater shields of noble house troops have an effective durability of 64. Mastered greataxes do 54 shield damage. So, if someone splits a noble heater shield, some polearm master from 2 tiles (who was pre-armed with a TS) can destroy the shield and then use QH to arm and attack with a billhook, potentially inflicting an injury right away, and allowing some other 2-tiler to finish the target off. (A longaxe + a TS does 31 actual damage to a noble heater shield, leaving it needing to block just one attack before it's destroyed, if it hasn't already blocked one attack.)

The above is a quick and efficient way to break down an annoying shieldwalling formation, which can result in several turns of frustrating misses even if everyone has ~90 melee skill.

Having 2-4 Quick-Handed troops throwing spears to destroy a couple of legionary tower shields is great at the start of ancient dead fights, especially if you have some zweihanders in the centre-front of your formation who could become vulnerable to polearms. With the shields quickly removed, they (as well as those behind them) can reliably hit the frontline legionaries (and gain RA if they have the perk), and those frontline legionaries will soon be dead, which will allow the zweihanders to advance and engage the pike-using legionaries (who don't have pole mastery and who will incur the -15 penalty to hit-chance).

Enemies gaining double-grip isn't much of a deterrent if you time the shield removal so that lots of people get to attack that enemy before its next turn (and/or if it's quickly netted/staggered/dazed/disarmed, and/or surrounded for an Adrenaline gang-bang).

[Kill'em ALL]

Originally posted by Estieukua:

attack that enemy surrounded for an Adrenaline gang-bang

My drink is all over the wall, thanks :P

Interesting points overall. It looks like some people have found really good uses for TS, even if they do require a pretty precise setup to be effective.

[Solitary Traveler]

As others have mentioned - the damage bonus the enemy gets from having their shield destroyed is a huge factor limiting the use and effectiveness of split shield, almost punishing one for doing it.

I think this could be negated by making the double grip 'perk' only come into effect when a character is not using a shield from the very beginning of the battle.

[Kill'em ALL]

Originally posted by AceOfBlaze:

the damage bonus the enemy gets from having their shield destroyed is a huge factor limiting the use and effectiveness of split shield, almost punishing one for doing it.

I wouldn't go that far, I actually rather like that you have to consider destroying - or not - a shield as a tactical decision. This way it's not a "no-brainer" automatic choice. It's also a matter of your team setup and proper timing, just as Estieukua said - if the enemy is not so dangerous and/or already tied by one of your tanks it might be beneficial to split, otherwise you might want to keep the enemy on defense... Decisions, decisions! I like that.

Originally posted by AceOfBlaze:

this could be negated by making the double grip 'perk' only come into effect when a character is not using a shield from the very beginning of the battle.

That would be pretty big and unnecessary nerf, IMO. Not to mention hard to logically explain.

I have no issue with shield splitting mechanics as such, just with the TS balance in regard to it. It's not good enough at this job as a single-use item.

Come to think of it... The TS is clearly inspired by the pilum of ancient Rome's military, notably used to not outright destroy but rather disable enemy shields by embedding itself in them, making them almost useless for defence. Maybe instead of dealing shield damage the TS could reduce the shield's defence value? Say, -10 shield defence and +5 Fatigue penalty per TS stuck in it. The enemy could then either keep the shield with penalties or drop it. That would be pretty darn interesting!

[w.f.schepel]

A throwing spear is a killing weapon in reality, not a shield disabler. IMHO, javelins should be shield disablers if they aren't dealing direct damage. Throwing spears should be a maximum damage dealing throwing option at the cost of a single use entity - and be a spear at the same time for stabbing purposes.