Stop putting all level ups in HP, the point of nimble is to get more fatigue!

[Primitive Dog Owner]

Nimble is not a damage soaking tank build and it never was, except during that silly straw hat and t-shirt period. Nimble is a way to get more fatigue and evasion, while maintaining reasonable concrete durability.

Let's do a comparison between builds for a (LOL) swordmaster

He's totally average in base stats, 44hp, 80.5 fatigue, 46 resolve, 94.5 Init, high melee skill and defense

He has one star in fatigue and one star in HP, 3 stars in melee offense, that's why you're bothering with him

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Battleforged Build #1 (takes Battleforged + brawny):

Max melee attack, 7 levels in defense, 10 levels in fatigue, 3 levels in HP (minimum rolls in melee defense diverted to HP)

80.5 fatigue + 35 = 115 fatigue

44 hp + 10.5 = 54 hp

300/300 gear costs him 43 fatigue with brawny = 72 fatigue before weapon

300/210 gear costs him 34 fatigue with brawny = 81 fatigue before weapon

250/210 gear costs him 31 fatigue with brawny = 84 fatigue before weapon


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Nimble build #1 (Takes Collosus + Nimble) ~ Max HP

10 levels in HP, 3 levels in fatigue, diverted from minimum rolls in melee def

44 hp + 35 = 79 x 1.25 collosus = 98.75 hp

80.5 fatigue + 10.5 = 91 fatigue

-15 fatigue armor = 76 fatigue before weapon

Low fatigue, but survivability is also nothing special. What's the point?

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Nimble build #2 (Takes Collosus + Nimble) ~ Fatigue focused

Max MA, 7 levels in MD,

7 levels in HP, 6 levels in fatigue, 3 of which are diverted from minimum rolls in melee def, 3 diverted from HP

44 hp + 24.5 = 68.5 x 1.25 collosus = 85.625 hp

80.5 fatigue + 21 = 101.5 fatigue

-15 fatigue armor = 86.5 fatigue before weapon, 74.2 with a greatsword or 68.5 with a two handed axe

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Comparison:

BF build #1 in 250/210 gets 84 fatigue before weapon, Nimble build #2 in 120/95 gets 86.5 fatigue before weapon

In most weapon tests, Nimble Build #2 has HIGHER or comparable concrete durability than BF build in 250/210. Notably, nimble build #2 does significantly better against crossbows and 2 handed weapons, it's less vulnerable to spike damage. BF build in 250/210 has a minor advantage vs weapons that are bad vs armor, like swords and arrows, but in both cases, they survive several hits, so if they die it won't be a surprise.

Nimble Build #2 also has the option to run dodge and a fatigue neutral weapon setup, if he wants more evasion

BF build #1 has the option to upgrade to 300/210 gear, which puts him at 81 fatigue before weapon, 69 with greatsword or 63 with a two handed axe. But the same problems above apply. He survives one more hit from a warbow, but dies in two hits to spiked impaler (nimble #2 dies in 4 hits), dies in two hits to greatsword (nimble #2 = 2.5). He's only 0.4 ahead vs a fighting axe.

Nimble #2 is still better vs spike damage and still has the option to run dodge.

BF build #1 can go up to 300/300 gear, dropping to 72 fatigue before weapon. This puts him firmly ahead in concrete durability, except vs crossbows and some 2 handers. But he's also firmly in low fatigue mode, not much point in using a greatsword with only 60 fatigue, maybe try the 2 handed axe with 54 fatigue. Spiked impaler now 3 shots him, two handed hammer kills in 1.9 (3.0 for nimble) but he has strongly pulled ahead vs the pike (4.3 vs 7.0) and is now killed in 3 hit by the greatsword, vs 2.5 for Nimble #2.

Pikes look to be the major weakness for Nimble #2, otherwise spike damage resistance + dodge gives him a pretty nice looking survivability profile as well as 14.5 more fatigue.


Early Thoughts:

Because battleforged guy took brawny and put his levelups in fatigue, Max HP nimble build (#1) didn't really gain much fatigue over him. He had 76 fatigue, but nimble in full plate had 72 fatigue and more concrete durability. All nimble #1 really did was trade concrete durability for dodge and initiative.

But nimble's scaling with HP was nerfed. Every point of HP you added used to be equal to as much as 4 hp. But now it is equal to 2.56 or less. If you gained 20 HP from collosus under the old system, you were gaining 80 effective HP. Now you are gaining 51.2 or less. HP is still good, but you have to consider the opportunity cost more. CHEAP HP is good, expensive HP is questionable.

There is a lot of cheap HP in the system. Base HP, HP from collosus, big HP rolls, it's easy to accumulate it. But there is also expensive HP in the system. Your minimum HP roll only buys you 5.12 effective HP or less... maybe you're better off with that 4 stamina roll?

Nimble is often (but not always) inferior for directly tanking damage now.

But one thing that nimble allows you to do is trade off concrete durability / tanking ability, for more fatigue. While maintaining reasonable baseline level of concrete durability. (You can also get dodge and initiative, if you're interested in those things).

Example #2 nimble thieves:

So the average base stats nimble thief with 2 stars in HP and 2 stars in fatigue COULD go

Max HP, Max MA, Max MD and have his background's baseline 93 fatigue, 78 after -15 armor before weapon. He'd have low fatigue, maybe he could do a fatigue neutral overhwhelm build. But his offense would be limited and his nimble tanking ability would also have the limitations that everyone has been complaining about

Or he could invest 4 level ups and collosus into HP, for 87.5 HP, 54 + 16 = 70 x 1.25 = 87.5 hp

Then invest 6 levelups into fatigue and 3 additional minimum rolls from defense into fatigue. Giving him 129 fatigue, -15 for armor = 114 fatigue before weapon

Contrast with a brawny battleforge build leveling fatigue every round, which would only have 90 fatigue before weapon in 300/300 armor (93+40-43). It'd also be stuck with 54 hp unless it diverted minimum rolls from defense or spent an additional perk.

Battleforged guy can tank more weak hits from fighting axes and warbows, but he has 24 less fatigue and gets literally two shot by anti-armor 2 handers and 3 shot by spiked impalers, which doesn't happen to nimble guy.

Example #3 nimble wildmen:

So the average wildman with the tough trait and 2 stars in HP and 2 stars in fatigue COULD go

Max HP, Max MA, Max MD and have his background's baseline 117.5 fatigue, 102.5 after -15 armor, before weapon. He'd have 147.5 hp after collosus, which is pretty good... but still loses to battleforged characters in many categories if you assume they have 85 hp instead of the puny 55 hp used in most simulations.

(the ability to stack ridiculous amounts of HP so easily is why nimble's HP scaling had to be nerfed)

Or he could take collosus and divert 3 minimum rolls from melee defense into HP. Then spend 10 levels on fatigue.

He'd end up with 112.5 hp and 157.5 fatigue, 142.5 after -15 armor. And his concrete durability would still be very reasonable, but subject to the normal nimble flaws.

In comparison, the Battleforged Wildman who maxes fatigue ends up at 68 hp, 157.5 fatigue, which falls to 114.5 after -43 for armor.

Max fatigue nimble Wildman gains 40 fatigue over Max HP nimble wildman and gains 28 fatigue over battleforged Wildman.

What's the tradeoff in survivability?

Max HP Nimble Wildman in 120/90/-15 vs Max Fatigue Nimble Wildman in 120/90/-15 vs Battleforged Nimble Wildman, 68 hp in 300/300

Fighting Axe: 10.1 vs 8.1 vs 10.1
Head Chopper: 8.8 vs 7.2 vs 9.1
Warhammer: 13.3 vs 10.3 vs 8.9
Two Handed Flanged Mace: 4.6 vs 3.6 vs 2.0
Two Handed Hammer: 4.9 vs 4.0 vs 2.0
Warbrand: 8.4 vs 7.2 vs 11.5
Spiked Impaler: 6.9 vs 5.1 vs 3.6
Warbow: 8.4 vs 7.0 vs 11.7
Pike: 6.8 vs 5.3 vs 6.8

Max HP nimble really isn't that exciting. He has lower fatigue than 300/300 Battleforged, but his survivability isn't exactly broken, given how high we have stacked his HP.

Max Fatigue nimble on the other hand trades off some survivability for 28(!) more fatigue than battleforged guy. And he still has advantages vs some of the major spike damage threats. And he still has dodge as an option.

Battleforged guy could gain fatigue using famed armor but if he uses lower quality 210 gear, etc, his survivability drops like a rock, falling below max fatigue nimble. And Max Fatigue nimble can gain survivability by wearing more efficient famed armor, I purposely used a mediocre setup for the nimble builds.

Conclusion:

A max HP nimble build might be "pointless" because it tanks worse than battleforged.

But nimble builds DO have an advantage in getting more fatigue while still having reasonable durability.

I'm not sure if you can actually find a way to translate all that fatigue into damage to make the loss of survivability worthwhile. That's up to you. There are also intermediate builds, which take more HP, if some of these fatigue totals are just too high for you.

But you CAN gain significant amounts of fatigue by going for a nimble build that does NOT max HP.

And often it is more efficient to gain fatigue that way, than to gain it by wearing low quality battleforged armor.

[Benjamin]

This is a good post. A few comments.

"Buying" ehp with heavier armor costs 1 fatigue for 7 (i.e. 43 fatigue for 300/300). If you include the benefit of BF, it's more like 1:8.5.

"Buying" ehp with nimble + colossus hp level ups costs 1 fatigue for 3.1. Pre-nerf nimble was 5, then 3.75. If you have no stars, because of the way the dice work, the ratio can go as high as 6.25 and as low as 1.5.

Running anything less the heaviest armor mostly made no sense for BF bros because their ratio (1:8.5) is so attractive. To your point, nimble bros have a much less attractive ratio (particularly on bad die rolls) and need to think harder about the trade-offs between more fatigue vs. more hp.

I think the point about nimble bros trading hp for fatigue is well made, but I think it also just goes to demonstrate that the perk has gone back to being a very niche build long term. You're comparing the survivability of a wildman with 2 stars in hp and tough vs. the survivability of essentially any generic BF bro.

I point that out not to criticize your analysis, but just to observe that such a character is pretty rare.

There are also a lot of comparisons to 2h-hammers and heavy crossbows, which are going to make nimble look good but:

1) 2-h hammers are rare
2) Spiked impalers are carried by goblins, which are a super bad match up for nimble bros because every other goblin has a weapon with ~70% armor effectiveness

So that's all to say that I think this is great analysis that shows if you ARE going to go nimble, you should think hard about putting more points into fatigue rather than maximizing hp. Particularly on certain die rolls.

I still think the choice to go nimble in the first place is niche. Those thief builds won't look so good when you plug them into the wildman comparison, particularly if you add some rows for goblin weapons and orc cleavers (or add 5 turns of miasma damage)...

However, nimble characters will be pretty good mid-game and at least get some benefit late game (extra fatigue and damage), so maybe that is enough. If you make them, put some points into fatigue.

[Abel]

Good points!

And I share Benjamin's conclusion. I think that's a good summary of where Nimble stands now.

[Piggy]

I think this one topic was really nice made! I use nimble tho cause of the swag >.>