Scimitar duelist

[Grigsey]

Took me forever to find a scimitar at all, Day 200ish found a decent famed one (just damage and armor damage buff) and holy crap are they good with duelist. The consistent damage. The cripple damage strike to weaken tough foes. Doesn't matter how heavily armored they are, they die.

To anyone lucky enough to find a famed scimitar, have fun with it.

Powerful and rare, awesome and so much fun. I like how the power is balanced by sheer rarity (seen 2 total scimitars in my playthrough) making finding one feel really special.

Now here is hoping they don't nerf them :)

[suejak]

I can't seem to find one, but it stands to reason it would be very strong. Have you tried it versus barbarians? Given how vulnerable barbs are to injuries, it really seems like it would tear them up on an Nimble guy with lots of HP.

[Grigsey]

He slays them with gusto. I really wish I had planned his build to include executioner (he was intended on being a fencer, so built for that) but does incredibly well without it. Once killing frenzy gets going he is kind of unstoppable. I am also curious on how doubling up the cripple chance works out for anyone who did that.

[turtle225]

I can't speak for a Famed variant, but the regular version is worse than other Dueling options imo.

Wing Mace already injures most things reliably even without Crippling and is just a better Dueling weapon overall.

[Abel]

Yep, I like the idea and the mechanics of the weapon and I congratulate you for your efforts to make it work but how useful are cutting injuries compared to blunt ones? And how crippling are they that it'd be better to inflict more rather than get additional damage (with the old secondary skill that was Decapitate).

Also, named Shamshirs costing 15k in shops is insane.

[Belial]

Can you elaborate how famed Scimitar is better than famed Sword for example? all famed weapons are just better version of regular weapons, as such, Scimitar is one of the worst weapons for duelist in the game

[MattE/Bierbaron]

In my opinion the scimitar is a worser sword with the ability of a cleaver. so no reposte. is he a duelist then?

[Grigsey]

Ok pros: fatigue management is drastically lower for the scimitar vs a mace or cleaver. So the dodge nimble duelist has much more staying power. He basically never runs out of fat/init. If you find one with -2 or 3 fat per swing, you are looking at infinite fat on normal swings. If you are only looking at damage #s you ignore a lot of factors of battle brothers.

But about damage? The Damage variance is very low. Predictable, steady damage. Benefits immensely from executioner, which can be set up on demand. It's more or less a debuff on demand button. You don't use it against every foe, but ones like barbarian chosen that you want to debuff, or set up with your 3rd attack for another bro to be safer from or kill next is highly useful.

In closing: lower fat keeps nimble dodge duelists defense higher for a long time with crazy long staying power in large fights. I regret having recovery on the bro using it currently (was made to be a fencer duelist) as he literally never needs to use it now. Ever, without -fat on his scimitar. Throws out decent combat nerfing wounds on demand. Need to test w/ a dude w/ cripple and see if that noticably changes the wounds severity. Also the special is actually helpful vs. orcs over the mace.

At the end of the day, you are still 1-2 strike killing stuff, just doing it at much less fat cost.

The best scimitar would ideally be damage buff and lower fat cost.

[turtle225]

The injury skill costs extra fatigue, a bunch of it in fact. Wing Mace can injure almost everything with just regular attack. Is the goal to injure people or stay fatigue neutral? Mace is more fatigue efficient at injury.

You are focusing too much on your famed scimitar. I'm sure its great, but most people won't find one.

There isn't really any reason to duel with a normal scimitar unless your Duelist really needs +10 hit chance and you prefer it over Noble Sword. A talented Duelist will find better options elsewhere.

[Grigsey]

The goal is having the option for both dude. Situational utility.

The savings on fat allow you to dish out the injury at will. More fat savings = more defense on the dodge minded duelist. And the injury skill costs a lot less fat than the mace secondary. Keeping fat low and init high has almost too many benefits to list depending on how you build that bro.

The mace, while does more damage high end, DOES leave the duelist more vulnerable and eventually leads to a slower kill rate in long fights. They are both 1-2 shotting stuff anyways. Dishing out attacks longer before having to recover is valuable.

No real reason other than it's fat efficient and works well (see consistent damage range). Totally no value in a bro that can murder crusade in a 30 enemy fight from start to finish with no recovery breaks. None at all.

If you can't figure out a use for a wound on command button or a bro that rarely if ever needs to recover, then that is on you.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Grigsey:

They are both 1-2 shotting stuff anyways.

This isn't accurate at all.

Mace kills 180/200 Honor Guard in 2.96 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 5.88.
Mace kills 160/170 Chosen in 4.37 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 7.39.
Mace kills 140/110 Raider in 2.07 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 3.75.

Yes swords run 8 fat per swing instead of 10. Yes that is useful. But Mace kills things much faster. They aren't even close.

Have you used a normal Shamshir? I feel like you are biased from your famed variant.

[Grigsey]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by Grigsey:

They are both 1-2 shotting stuff anyways.

This isn't accurate at all.

Mace kills 180/200 Honor Guard in 2.96 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 5.88.
Mace kills 160/170 Chosen in 4.37 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 7.39.
Mace kills 140/110 Raider in 2.07 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 3.75.

Yes swords run 8 fat per swing instead of 10. Yes that is useful. But Mace kills things much faster. They aren't even close.

Have you used a normal Shamshir? I feel like you are biased from your famed variant.

Funny about those numbers, they do not match my experience at all. Not even close. The duelist literally round after rounded 4 chosen my last fight. 2 shots each. Your math does not match reality, sorry. Last time I went treasure hunting, same w/ honor guards.

I have used a normal shamshir, it was *gasp* usable, not insane like the famed version which is better by leaps and bounds, but usable. Early on setting up targets for executioner bros was handy (ya know before the bros have access to like perks and stuff) For reals turtle, step outside of your cookie cutter, you might realize there is more to battle brothers than just the damage stat on weapons.

There are no doubt pros and cons to each set up. The entire point is, it's viable, and objectively pretty good with small trade offs between other duelist builds.
Crap I'd argue for sword duelist in general due to the odds of finding a good famed variant of any number of one handed swords are pretty decent to the point of being able to count on it more than "a maybe if" The other one handed sword bro in the company has their swing cost down to 6. Less than a dagger. Which is nuts for a dodge build. He too, never runs out of fat or low on init. The mace bro near him, does, often.

Lots of benefits, lots of flexibility of other things to use while seeking a good famed. Flexibility in a game of RNGesus is good.

[Winter Wolf]

Originally posted by Abel:

Yep, I like the idea and the mechanics of the weapon and I congratulate you for your efforts to make it work but how useful are cutting injuries compared to blunt ones? And how crippling are they that it'd be better to inflict more rather than get additional damage (with the old secondary skill that was Decapitate).

Also, named Shamshirs costing 15k in shops is insane.

Aren't all the shop prices insane? I've not found anything in shop that was near it's gold value that was also "good". The shopkeepers have to feed their baby orcs and dragonlets after all...

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Grigsey:

Originally posted by turtle225:

This isn't accurate at all.

Mace kills 180/200 Honor Guard in 2.96 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 5.88.
Mace kills 160/170 Chosen in 4.37 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 7.39.
Mace kills 140/110 Raider in 2.07 hits on average. Shamshir kills in 3.75.

Yes swords run 8 fat per swing instead of 10. Yes that is useful. But Mace kills things much faster. They aren't even close.

Have you used a normal Shamshir? I feel like you are biased from your famed variant.

Funny about those numbers, they do not match my experience at all. Not even close. The duelist literally round after rounded 4 chosen my last fight. 2 shots each. Your math does not match reality, sorry. Last time I went treasure hunting, same w/ honor guards.

Sorry friend, but that's literally impossible unless the Chosen are naked, and they are not. Double grip Shamshir has 56-63 damage range. Chosen have 130 hp. You can't even two shot naked ones unless you get a headshot.

Your anecdotal Famed Shamshir w/ Frenzy and hammer/xbow support or whatever else isn't what I'm talking about.

Normal Mace, normal Shamshir. Mace is superior.

[Grigsey]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Originally posted by Grigsey:

Funny about those numbers, they do not match my experience at all. Not even close. The duelist literally round after rounded 4 chosen my last fight. 2 shots each. Your math does not match reality, sorry. Last time I went treasure hunting, same w/ honor guards.

Sorry friend, but that's literally impossible unless the Chosen are naked, and they are not. Double grip Shamshir has 56-63 damage range. Chosen have 130 hp. You can't even two shot naked ones unless you get a headshot.

Your anecdotal Famed Shamshir w/ Frenzy and hammer/xbow support or whatever else isn't what I'm talking about.

Normal Mace, normal Shamshir. Mace is superior.

Normal vs. normal, yeah sure. Except for all the other things to consider that aren't damage related that totally effects your bros in one way or another. We are going to have to disagree here, just like flail duelists (who are still great) and all the other stuff we don't agree on due to your stance of bigger damage # = better always. And head shots, the things that happen one in 4 swings never ever happen when swinging up to 3 times a round. Or wounds never lower their HP pool, or anything else that comes up in a fight.

You can spout math that doesn't consider perks or head shot variables or the effect of wounds all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this duelist, by himself can 2 shot chosen quite regularly. Probably more so if I created a bro specifically for it.

Sorry dude, your math is wrong on this one.

[suejak]

Hmm, wandering into a bullfight like a blind man here, but I wonder which would yield injuries more consistently. Surely it has to be the shamshir? Glancing at the math (and maybe I'm wrong), winged mace without CS is not going to be injuring too consistently, whereas the shamshir (esp. with CS!!) is going to be injuring constantly.

I'm happy to be wrong, but it seems like if you're building an anti-barb strategy around injuries w/ Executioner and whatnot, you'd definitely prefer to have a shamshir guy reliably dealing injuries on every blow than a winged mace guy doing it only sometimes. My math seems to suggest the winged mace guy is gonna be very unreliable in this area, even if he might do more damage on average overall in a vacuum.