Archers: my ratings of the perks

[Goblin King]

Here is how I rate the perks for an archer / crossbowman.

Essential Perks

- Bow Expert / Crossbow Expert: For the fatigue reduction & extra range / extra armor piercing.
- Berserk: To wreak poorly armored hordes.
- Killing Frenzy: 25% damage that is reasonably easy to proc.

Near Essential Perks

- Bullseye: huge boost to accuracy for high priority targets behind cover (Hexe, Necromancer, Goblin Overseers/Shamans, etc.)
- Footworks: to get out of melee. Could be replaced by smart use of Rotation.

Excellent Perks

- Gifted: A +4 to Ranged and very good boost to two others stats.
- Overwhelm: Excellent for high initiative bros. Can proc on multiple enemies if shot into a group of foes.
- Pathfinder: To save fatigue and maneuver to high ground.
- Colossus: massive boost to HP.
- Nimble: Excellent boost to survivability if you have good HP and low fatigue armor.
- Rotation: A decent alternative to Footworks if you keep a tight formation.
- Recover: for prolonged battles. Could be omitted for Bros with Iron Lungs or using a fatigue reducing unique weapon.

Good Perks

- Adaptation: small but consistent improvement to accuracy.
- Anticipation: Amazing ranged defense, but Nimble & ranged defense may be enough and doesn't work on melee.
- Dodge: Great for high initiative bros. Unfortunately, fatigue & waiting both reduce its effectiveness.

Okay Perks

- Executioner: 20% damage boost, but unreliable to proc.
- Quick Hands: to refill your quiver quickly, or switch to a melee weapon.
- Relentless: if you have high initiative & an initiative build (Overwhelm + Dodge + Recover).
- Steel Brow: archers want helmets that don't reduce vision much, and this helps protect them.

Situational Perks

- Crippling Strikes: to combo with Executioner.
- Fearsome: At the level you get this your equipment can usually do over 15 points of damage.
- Head Hunter: to helps against monsters with high health but no armor. Harmful against enemies with head armor.

[Arandur87]

I really enjoy Headhunter on my Archers for sniping down Billmen, Arbalesters and hatless Berserkers ect.
Most fights don't really take that long on my playthrough so I usually don't take Recovery on Archers (~100 Fat is enough for most fights).
If a Archer ends up with ~80 Fat on lvl 11 I'd take Recovery.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by Arandur87:

Most fights don't really take that long on my playthrough so I usually don't take Recovery on Archers (~100 Fat is enough for most fights).

But it's fights that *do* last more that matter. Easy ones you would have won without needing to optimize for it.

Plus, perfectly berserking archer accumulates 21 fat per turn and needs 36 free for full cycle. An archer with 100 free fat can fatigue out (as in can't fire 3 times) by turn 5 already.

[Arandur87]

Originally posted by Whatever100500:

Originally posted by Arandur87:

Most fights don't really take that long on my playthrough so I usually don't take Recovery on Archers (~100 Fat is enough for most fights).

But it's fights that *do* last more that matter. Easy ones you would have won without needing to optimize for it.

There's one fight where you really need long lasting Archer fire and that's Goblin City. I don't take a perk for just one fight.
I rather use 1-2 Lone Wolf Duelists to clear up some Gobos in addition to my Archers and Shieldwall. Works out for me so far.
It's just my opinion, everybody can specc their Bros as they want.

[MattE/Bierbaron]

I would give him the throwing weapon specialisation too, for the ancient dead and the Schrats.

[turtle225]

Archer and Xbow build is very different. Trying to combine the two here gets kind of muddy imo.

I don't want to pick apart the list too much because it depends a lot on whether we are talking Bow or Xbow, but I will mention a few things.

Nimble should be on essential. It is far and away the best defensive option you have and you would be crazy to skip it.

Footwork/Rotation are not necessary if you have proper positioning and other bros to handle problem situations. They can be ok, but I consider them luxury.

Recover isn't necessary. By the time archers fatigue out the battle should be "won." In Goblin City and Witch Hut you can bring Second Wind potions if you are worried.

Headhunter is garbage on bow archers. Yes you can stack it up and cheese a Raider or something but for every time that works there's a time where you fail to kill something you should have killed because you hit them in the head (Run some simulations, common 140/115 Raider actually lives longer against HH Warbow than no HH, on average). It isn't completely terrible on xbows who want to pierce anyway, but I'd rather take almost anything else than a perk that might net me one or two extra headshots over a battle - headshots that might have been overkill damage anyway.

Steel Brow is bad. 70hp/120/95 Nimble survives 2.71 heavy xbows on average. With Brow that goes to 2.9. If you picked Colossus (no Brow) you get up to 3.26. Even the 4hp from Gifted gets you to 2.89. If you already have Nimble, Colossus, Gifted, and Anticipation/Dodge and still want more defense then Nine Lives is a better mediocre defensive option than Brow.

Quick Hands just to swap quivers is a poor perk investment. QH on Xbow/Throwing hybrid or Xbow/Pole hybrid is great.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Footwork/Rotation are not necessary if you have proper positioning and other bros to handle problem situations. They can be ok, but I consider them luxury.

Not having Footwork means having to pass on opportunities to attack certain enemies. Footwork archer can afford to fire at Orc Warrior from 2 tiles and get away if orc decides to push towards it's position. Non-footwork archer can only fire if there far-shot trajectory available, 2 tiles is generally too dangerous.

I tried not taking Footwork in previous run (to make archers hexe-proof, which actually worked). But it also made big orc fights much more dangerous.

[turtle225]

Yes, Orcs are the main reason to take Footwork, maybe Unholds too I guess. I bring 2 archers to orc fights (with Warriors) and keep them huddled in the interior backline. If you keep tight formation and have some Indomitable or Taunt bros on the edges then the Warriors have a real tough time pushing through to your archers.

Footwork isn't bad and I won't fault anyone for using it. I just disagreed with the OP's assertion that it was "near-essential"

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by turtle225:

Yes, Orcs are the main reason to take Footwork, maybe Unholds too I guess.

Unholds are more often available to be shot from afar - you don't want more than 2 bros at opposite sides of each anyway. Unholds are also more predictable, while Orc Warrior pushing somebody into empty position then using him as step-stone towards archer is a more subtle move.

Plus, Unholds are not as sticky due to knockback.

[Sormaran]

i agree, CP is so situational, it sucks so much when you bring archers vs ancient dead/schrats/kraken. If only you'd use archers vs generally squishy and living targets, like humans, beasts or gobbos - then it would be awesome.... but alas.... oh wait, you do use archers like that. so ... ???? ....

• Lowest priority for head hunter, cuz let me guess: "dont wanna hit a fresh helmet" urgh... its like you dont even know about armor penetration, criticals and overall how damage works in this game. Feelings don equals facts.
  
• Overwhelm is so overpraised, 80% of people dont even know why they pick it, i bet. It is only useful when your bro is a stand-in till real archer comes. Stand-in who cant hit anything is not an archer, thats debuff spammer to kill\fire later. Doesnt mean its bad perk, but for "ideal" list of perks its a bad one. Definition of "situational" at its finest.
  
• your executioner\CP ranking doesnt make any sense, not only its super low and those are core perks, but its also a combo pack, one doesnt go without the other, how come they're in diff categories? Doesnt matter much, tho, since how low you put them.
  
• Pathfinder, footwork, colossus, rotation - are you sure its an archer build or is it a hybrid? all of those perks are barely ever useful for archers. All enemies who can catch you out of position are either too weak to pose a threat or you dont bring archers in those fights anyway. Those perks as useful as nine lives.
  
• Dodge\relentless - whats the point? first of all its a combo pack, so why perks are in diff tiers again? And then how can you actually use it? Even with relentless, constantly firing archer barely have any dodge buffs. Lvl'ing defences instead of initiative is better every time.
  
• Quick hands - overreaction for an archer. Again i ask, sure its not a hybrid?
  
• fearsome.... i cant even...
  
• Recover and gifted are only good on bad rolled bros, otherwise its a waste. Same as with overwhelm - thats whole definition of "situational".

Im not usually to come in such discussions, cuz i believe everyone allowed to their own fun, but since its a recommendation - thats fair game. And Holy Davkul, this list is a meme, i wish i never opened the topic.
Archers are hard pressed for perks already... well, good ones, those who not waste it on dodge, relentless, colossus, quick hands, fearsome, et cetera. This list is a disservice and misinformation.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Sormaran:

• Lowest priority for head hunter, cuz let me guess: "dont wanna hit a fresh helmet" urgh... its like you dont even know about armor penetration, criticals and overall how damage works in this game. Feelings don equals facts.

HH is bad, not sure why you are defending it. It is actively harmful against the majority of enemies in the game. I ran some simulations and the only enemies it makes any meaningful contribution against are Overseers, naked Zerkers, and anything without a hat. Anything else that has a hat and it is actively hurting you. Why take a perk that is actively hurting you at least half the time? Yes you can stack it up and fish for one shot kills but unless you manage to get 5 stacks it won't be guaranteed, and every time you are shooting the more normal mildly armored guys it is getting in the way.

Originally posted by Sormaran:

• Overwhelm is so overpraised, 80% of people dont even know why they pick it, i bet. It is only useful when your bro is a stand-in till real archer comes. Stand-in who cant hit anything is not an archer, thats debuff spammer to kill\fire later. Doesnt mean its bad perk, but for "ideal" list of perks its a bad one. Definition of "situational" at its finest.
  
• Dodge\relentless - whats the point? first of all its a combo pack, so why perks are in diff tiers again? And then how can you actually use it? Even with relentless, constantly firing archer barely have any dodge buffs. Lvl'ing defences instead of initiative is better every time.

Agreed, I've never understood the community's fascination with Dodge/Overwhelm archery. They fatigue up too fast and I don't shoot slow things like Warriors. Dodge is better than Relentless, it makes sense to be tiered above, but I don't like any of these on archers myself. Dodge can be ok as a defensive option for xbows who don't burn fatigue, but I would never consider it on Warbow.

Originally posted by Sormaran:

• your executioner\CP ranking doesnt make any sense, not only its super low and those are core perks, but its also a combo pack, one doesnt go without the other, how come they're in diff categories? Doesnt matter much, tho, since how low you put them.

You can use Executioner without Crippling just fine, it makes sense for it to be a tier above. I use both on archers myself. Crippling is a waste on xbows.

Originally posted by Sormaran:

• Recover and gifted are only good on bad rolled bros, otherwise its a waste. Same as with overwhelm - thats whole definition of "situational".

Gifted is fine. Even superstar 100 skill archer can still benefit from 4 accuracy. 90 skill archers are looking at 30-40% on quick shot Goblins.

Originally posted by Sormaran:

Archers are hard pressed for perks already... well, good ones.

Idk why you feel you are hard pressed when you apparently dislike most of the perks. I can probably guess 9 of your perks based on your post, most of which I use myself (not HH). I am at a loss for your 10th perk though.

[Goblin King]

I listened to your comments and downgraded Recover from "Near Essential" to "Excellent".

As for Overwhelm, it can provide a -20% to Melee/Ranged, potentially to multiple targets. That is huge. It can really make a difference if one of your bro is low on health, or if you are fighting big bad guys like the Barbarian King, Lindwurms, Unholds, Schrats, etc.

If you bros are getting hit 40% of the type by melee, a -20% to melee means you half the damage received by that creature, which is huge.

[suejak]

I don't take either on my archers, but I think Relentless is probably better than Dodge on them. Dodge is pointless on them post-Nimble, but Overwhelm on archers is pretty good.

A lot of people get stuck in the fallacy that Relentless is only about Dodge. It's not. It's about initiative.

[Tephros83]

Edit:
This reminds me. Anybody know the initiative level to outpace goblin overseer or ambushers?

My current approach for bows is:

Always: Colossus, recover, bullseye, bow mastery, berserk, nimble, KF

Then the last 3 perks depend on if he is better in initiative or ranged defense:

Initiative: Dodge, relentless, overwhelm
Ranged defense: pathfinder, anticipation, footwork

May consider swapping relentless/dodge for pathfinder sometimes if the guy is really beefy (to skip dodge) or really fast and will overwhelm anybody necessary without relentless.

I don't agree with skipping recover at all. It may be okay for early game or easy stuff where you're holding your fire to save ammo, but for challenging battles I always use it and that's what I build for. Also I only level fatigue to 80 after equipment so maybe that influences this.

[suejak]

Originally posted by Tephros83:

Edit:
This reminds me. Anybody know the initiative level to outpace goblin overseer or ambushers?

If I'm reading the code correctly, it looks like overseers have 120 base init and ambushers have 140. Both overseers and ambushers recover at a rate of 15 per turn, just like a normal human, and I assume they also have armour/weapon effects.

[Abel]

Interesting discussion.
Personally, I build very offensive archers. I don't pick Footwork or Rotation because I don't like to use them as bait/off-tank.

Recover is a must. Quick Shot costs 12. That's 28 per turn, add 12 every other turn for Berserk and remove 15 per turn. That's 19 per turn. That gives 5 turns before being exhausted, more or less. Very likely to happen in difficult battles. There are actually very few builds that can afford to pass on Recover.

Executioner is a good perk, in my opinion. Especially with the new Barbarians. It will also help kill enemies like Orcs, sturdier Goblins and all humans much faster.