Two handed mace or two handed hammer?

[ChemicalBacon]

I'm currently making a draft to take on the black monolith and I have a hedge knight and a swordmaster who make exceptional battleforged 2 hander units, however i'm stuggling to choose a mace or a hammer for the armour piecing and debuffing power

I get a lot of enemies have steel brow but the strike down ability on the 2h mace makes it almost worthwhile to stun an enemy for 2 turns. But I also like the 2 handed hammer for its stagger and ability to control crowds of enemies very easily while still dealing high AP.

I'm conflicted, what does everyone else prefer against ancient dead?

Edit: BB just corrupted my 300 day ironman save, so ♥♥♥♥ me I guess?

[Hykal]

I think this overall depends on your unit composition. I'd say hammer, but without knowing the other 11 and their setup, I can't make a true judgement call.

[ChemicalBacon]

Originally posted by Hykal94:

I think this overall depends on your unit composition. I'd say hammer, but without knowing the other 11 and their setup, I can't make a true judgement call.

Its a work in progress, I can't hire hedge knights because they will try to kill each other. I've opted for a monk (holy water event) and a bunch of sellswords, a swordmaster and a mix of thieves, lumberjacks and farmers.

[Abel]

2H Maces have the most chances to kill enemies in one hit. 2H Hammers have an AoE. I'd say my main concern in choosing one or the other would be Fatigue. If you have more, pick hammer, if not mace.

[Estieukua]

I normally use 2H maces or hammers on quick-handed polearm-users, in order to rapidly obliterate any encroaching ancient dead using basic 15-fatigue attacks. Both are highly effective for the purpose, but the Daze effect of maces is very nice (and it also makes the enemy effectively two-thirds staggered). I'd say maces are definitely a bit better for basic attacks. For high-defence troops around the edges of the formation, 2H hammers have an AOE attack that makes them more suitable than maces for that role, but I prefer greatswords or bardiches in order to be able to Split those pike-wielding bastards (but I suppose the greater devastation of 2H hammers might allow you to rapidly clear shield-bearing legionaries out of the way in order to advance to engage the pikes directly ... and you might just get a chance to hit those bastards before some other shield-bearing legionaries move in and rotate them out of your grasp).

[Hykal]

So to take it in a vacuum: Considering swordmasters don't always have the highest FAT, I'd give him the mace and the HK the hammer. I don't know how long it'll take you, but that old trait is gonna hit soon so you might as well prepare. Unless you give your swordmaster that drink of course.

[ChemicalBacon]

Originally posted by Hykal94:

So to take it in a vacuum: Considering swordmasters don't always have the highest FAT, I'd give him the mace and the HK the hammer. I don't know how long it'll take you, but that old trait is gonna hit soon so you might as well prepare. Unless you give your swordmaster that drink of course.

I have the water but he's only level 8, or was.
I think it triggers at level 10 or greater or something. he's already had the paycut event so I would've expected to see it in 30 days or so.

I say "was" because BB just corrupted my save. I load it and the game crashes, if I load any other save its just fine. So rip Ironman Vet 300 days. I must have put almost 20 hours of time into that save.

[ChemicalBacon]

Originally posted by Estieukua:

I normally use 2H maces or hammers on quick-handed polearm-users, in order to rapidly obliterate any encroaching ancient dead using basic 15-fatigue attacks. Both are highly effective for the purpose, but the Daze effect of maces is very nice (and it also makes the enemy effectively two-thirds staggered). I'd say maces are definitely a bit better for basic attacks. For high-defence troops around the edges of the formation, 2H hammers have an AOE attack that makes them more suitable than maces for that role, but I prefer greatswords or bardiches in order to be able to Split those pike-wielding bastards (but I suppose the greater devastation of 2H hammers might allow you to rapidly clear shield-bearing legionaries out of the way in order to advance to engage the pikes directly ... and you might just get a chance to hit those bastards before some other shield-bearing legionaries move in and rotate them out of your grasp).

So what do you do with your backline? Equip them with polehammers, axes or polearms?
I want to get a mix of polehammers and axes because honestly the polearms don't seem that great when you can only hit shields. I've tried flanking but on the black monolith its impossible with how many enemies there are.

I normally get a good 14 turns in and thin them down to 12 or so but theres always a lucky polearm hit that almost instakills a 100 hp brother in my frontline, after that it starts to fall apart because they start focusing single units and even though I have 70-90 Mdef on my units when they have their shields up it still seems that 1 in 4 pikes get a hit in.

[ChemicalBacon]

Okay new question: Dagger spam vs. ancient dead. Good or bad?
It avoids the high AP the the AD don't have a lot of health so in practice wouldn't it obliterate them completely in 3 stabs?

[UnluckyNoob]

Originally posted by ChemicalBacon:

So what do you do with your backline? Equip them with polehammers, axes or polearms?
I want to get a mix of polehammers and axes because honestly the polearms don't seem that great when you can only hit shields. I've tried flanking but on the black monolith its impossible with how many enemies there are.

I normally get a good 14 turns in and thin them down to 12 or so but theres always a lucky polearm hit that almost instakills a 100 hp brother in my frontline, after that it starts to fall apart because they start focusing single units and even though I have 70-90 Mdef on my units when they have their shields up it still seems that 1 in 4 pikes get a hit in.

Billhook in hands + 2H mace/hammer in backpack + warscythe(optional, for high fatigue bros only) in backpack. Attack at 2 tiles with billhook and at 1 tile with close combat weapon. Plan weapon switching so that you trigger berserk most of the time. Billhook >> polehammer/longaxe.

[UnluckyNoob]

Originally posted by ChemicalBacon:

Okay new question: Dagger spam vs. ancient dead. Good or bad?
It avoids the high AP the the AD don't have a lot of health so in practice wouldn't it obliterate them completely in 3 stabs?

Unfortunately they have 50% resistance. So it takes quite a long to kill them with dagger.

[Estieukua]

Originally posted by ChemicalBacon:

Originally posted by Estieukua:

I normally use 2H maces or hammers on quick-handed polearm-users, in order to rapidly obliterate any encroaching ancient dead using basic 15-fatigue attacks. Both are highly effective for the purpose, but the Daze effect of maces is very nice (and it also makes the enemy effectively two-thirds staggered). I'd say maces are definitely a bit better for basic attacks. For high-defence troops around the edges of the formation, 2H hammers have an AOE attack that makes them more suitable than maces for that role, but I prefer greatswords or bardiches in order to be able to Split those pike-wielding bastards (but I suppose the greater devastation of 2H hammers might allow you to rapidly clear shield-bearing legionaries out of the way in order to advance to engage the pikes directly ... and you might just get a chance to hit those bastards before some other shield-bearing legionaries move in and rotate them out of your grasp).

So what do you do with your backline? Equip them with polehammers, axes or polearms?
I want to get a mix of polehammers and axes because honestly the polearms don't seem that great when you can only hit shields. I've tried flanking but on the black monolith its impossible with how many enemies there are.

I normally get a good 14 turns in and thin them down to 12 or so but theres always a lucky polearm hit that almost instakills a 100 hp brother in my frontline, after that it starts to fall apart because they start focusing single units and even though I have 70-90 Mdef on my units when they have their shields up it still seems that 1 in 4 pikes get a hit in.

My "backline" (or interior core of the formation for fights like the Monolith) is the quick-handed polearm-users (billhook-users) who switch to 2H maces/hammers. Also axe-users with longaxes and either bardiches (good for splitting pike legionaries) or greataxes (great for one-shotting tower shields). Mastered polearms (or just jagged pikes, which I often equip as a third weapon on the axe-users) are great for getting at necrosavants in the early part of the fight without breaking out of formation, and for attacking nearby pike legionaries without staying in place to be attacked back. Axe-users can remove shields here and there so that the polearm-users can crush them quickly with bills and/or 2H maces/hammers.

I also have a high-defence greatsword-user to the front of the interior part of the formation, and another to the rear of it, and the front and rear flanks are guarded by shield-users who stay in a perpetual state of Riposte+Indomitable (great for getting rid of necrosavants in the early fight, and surprisingly okay against legionary armour - especially if some of it's been removed by bills/longaxes).

My past experience of trying to use shieldless troops on the exterior of the formation against the Monolith didn't work well. Also, shield troops using shieldwall still end up getting hit too much, and aren't able to contribute much damage. Even with 90 melee defence, that goes down to 70 because of diminishing returns, and the legionaries' shield knock-back skill has +40 chance to hit, meaning that they still have ~40% chance to knock you back. And if lots of them do try to knock you back (which they will) they will succeed before long, and that will cancel shieldwall (and riposte if that was active) and open up your formation.

[Whatever100500]

Originally posted by Estieukua:

My past experience of trying to use shieldless troops on the exterior of the formation against the Monolith didn't work well. Also, shield troops using shieldwall still end up getting hit too much, and aren't able to contribute much damage. Even with 90 melee defence, that goes down to 70 because of diminishing returns, and the legionaries' shield knock-back skill has +40 chance to hit, meaning that they still have ~40% chance to knock you back. And if lots of them do try to knock you back (which they will) they will succeed before long, and that will cancel shieldwall (and riposte if that was active) and open up your formation.

To tank monolith like that you need shieldwall+indom cyclers (just 1 makes huge difference, but more isn't that necessary). Indom makes you immune to knock-back, among other things.

[Desperado]

Originally posted by ChemicalBacon:

Its a work in progress, I can't hire hedge knights because they will try to kill each other. I've opted for a monk (holy water event) and a bunch of sellswords, a swordmaster and a mix of thieves, lumberjacks and farmers.

Dude Hedge cant kill each other with a monk in your team, i keep a monk lvl 1 and have like 8 hedge knight. The event proc like once for 40days, you just say "save you for the battlefield" then your monk can stop the fight for free, just light wounds.

[turtle225]

Originally posted by Desperado:

Originally posted by ChemicalBacon:

Its a work in progress, I can't hire hedge knights because they will try to kill each other. I've opted for a monk (holy water event) and a bunch of sellswords, a swordmaster and a mix of thieves, lumberjacks and farmers.

Dude Hedge cant kill each other with a monk in your team, i keep a monk lvl 1 and have like 8 hedge knight. The event proc like once for 40days, you just say "save you for the battlefield" then your monk can stop the fight for free, just light wounds.

HK's can always be stopped from killing each other regardless of Monks. You can just choose the option to have your bros intervene on the fight and a few will get a temporary injury and that's it, no deaths.

I see it fairly often that people are worried about hiring multiple HK's and I'm not really sure how this fear got perpetuated throughout the community when the death is always preventable.

Originally posted by ChemicalBacon:

I get a lot of enemies have steel brow but the strike down ability on the 2h mace makes it almost worthwhile to stun an enemy for 2 turns.

This is almost always worse than just using the normal attack. Daze is already a very good status and the normal attack does a bunch of damage while the Stun more or less sacrifices your turn. Anything not undead will also almost always get injured by the regular attack, and Ancient Dead can sometimes even be one shot after Frenzy is up.

Especially in a fight like the Monolith, you don't want to be clowning around with Stuns because you need to kill and kill fast to prevent getting overwhelmed. The Conqueror is an exception. It can be worthwhile to stun him because he has a billion health and is dangerous. But if you decide to do that use a 1H Mace bro instead. Your 2H Mace is better off doing the Daze/Damage.

Originally posted by Abel:

2H Maces have the most chances to kill enemies in one hit. 2H Hammers have an AoE. I'd say my main concern in choosing one or the other would be Fatigue. If you have more, pick hammer, if not mace.

I second this in answer to the original question.

[ChemicalBacon]

Its not like it matters now anyway, my save got corrupted and I lost all of it.
I don't really have the energy or patience to restart and go through those 300 days again