Why are Eldar so completely broken in this game?

[Aetrion]

I think Eldar in this game are horribly implemented. Everything about them is either so horrible that it's not worth using at all, or so overpowered that people will never stop complaining about it.


I mean, let's start with the broken stuff:

All of the Eldar fundamentals are absolutely horrid, you can't last for 5 seconds when you're actually exchanging fire with an enemy ship. You have no shields and the weakest troop values, so you always get your systems destroyed by lightning strikes. Your weapons have short range for the most part, you need to move to have any defense whatsoever, but if you ram someone you instantly die. Because of this you basically have to micromanage every single ship the entire time to keep them moving toward the enemy while shooting without ramming the enemy at the end of their attack run, and unless you're using pulsars you won't do enough damage in an attack run to justify all the time your opponent will have to fire at you while you're positioning for another.

With every other faction you can just issue a general attack order and the ships will behave half way intelligently, with Eldar if you don't keep full control over all your ships at all times they will simply commit suicide. They will come to a dead stop in firing range of the enemy, let their holofields drop, and simply sit there while they get destroyed in seconds. Pulsar ships will even just sit there while waiting for their pulsars to charge back up and basically just let themselves get killed.

Eldar aren't actually faster than other ships either. The second someone hits afterburners or big red button they will easily catch up with you, so any notion of effective hit and run attacks dies right there. The only way you can actually keep up an effective attack is to basically employ dogfight tactics and split your forces so the enemy can't give chase without getting shot in the rear. Again, sound in theory, but in practice it means you need to micromanage these ships to an absurd degree and a single mistake kills them.

A bunch of their weapons are also completely useless. Star Cannons? I guess it might annoy the enemy to have someone fly up to them and sandblast their paint off before rudely exploding. Bombers? Might be good if you had some actual carriers and not just the odd launchbay here or there. Torpedoes? Everyone has them, and usually more of them, nothing special here.

Oh, and having an Ulthwe ship is basically the most worthless thing ever. 180 seconds cooldown for an ability that does such laughably tiny amounts of damage half the ships in the game could just park in the center of the Maelstrom and be fine at the end of it. I mean seriously? The thing could do 10 times as much damage and it would still just be a minor annoyance to circumnavigate or fly out of. I mean people are meant to fly out of Maelstroms right? Because right now if they just stay in them for their whole duration they will take less damage than from a pulsar attack or torpedo run. With a cooldown as absurd as it currently has good luck even using this more than once in a match, and we're talking about an ability that would still be too weak to matter even if it had no cooldown at all.

Let me spell that out again: 200 damage if an enemy stays in the area of the maelstrom for the whole 45 seconds is an ABSOLUTE joke. An ability with a 3 minute cooldown needs to absolutely rip enemies in half to be worth it, and that would just add even more cheesy imbalance, so please just give us something with a reasonable cooldown and reasonable damage. Right now it's way too much cooldown for way too little effect.



And then there is the "good" or "cheese" as one might also call it.

I mean how about that Void Stalker? Yea, pretty much the entire faction lives and dies by one single ridiculously overpowered ship with one single ridiculously overpowered weapon.

Pulsars are the only thing Eldar have that actually does enough damage reliably to make up for all their huge shortcomings. Of course when you have a faction that dies to absolutely everything in seconds the only way you can ever compete is to have a weapon that kills absolutely everything in seconds. The reason why people hate this so much is because they suddenly are having just as much "fun" as Eldar players when their ships get melted into slag by death lasers in 5 seconds flat.

And yea, that speed boost ability is insanely good. I don't think anyone can complain about that. Doesn't really make up for any of the other shortcomings though.




Can we please have some decent game balance here? It's so obnoxious to play with a faction that is so OP in some areas and so horrible in others that every single match is either you absolutely slaughtering people and ruining their fun, or them absolutely slaughtering you and you having no fun.

The attack AI for Eldar needs to be more competent at actually using their ships, they need to be way sturdier than they are so that they don't need ridiculously damaging weapons to even be worth anything.

They need more ships, most notably some actual carriers, because their supposed fighter superiority simply doesn't manifest at all in the absence of any ships that actually have a lot of launch bays (Except the Void Stalker, because Void Stalker).

Their fundamentals need to actually be workable. When you're fighting enemies with holofields and starcannons you shouldn't get slagged in seconds by ships using macro cannons and shields, because it leads to a point where there is basically no good reason to use anything other than the cheesy stuff.

[A X I]

Thats a long post.

I read part of the first sentence tho, I think you are making a false dichotemy.

The Eldar are weak against spam, Imperial are great at spam. Play like an Imperial, and you can defeat them. Uless its on a gamemodes where they are totally OP, there are some cases where its basically impossible to beat them. Orkz vs Eldar on Planetary Bombardment is pitiful.

[С Г エ χ]

>Oh, and having an Ulthwe ship is basically the most worthless thing ever.
Oh, so this is a troll post! Clever how you completely ignore the real reason people take it.

[A X I]

Originally posted by С Г エ χ:

>Oh, and having an Ulthwe ship is basically the most worthless thing ever.
Oh, so this is a troll post! Clever how you completely ignore the real reason people take it.

This troll wrote a TL;DR longer than any ive seen here.

-2/10 if he's a troll, I mean no one will read this.

[Wolf Of Mars]

Originally posted by m8:

Originally posted by Ξ AXI Ξ:

Thats a long post.

I read part of the first sentence tho, I think you are making a false dichotemy.

The Eldar are weak against spam, Imperial are great at spam. Play like an Imperial, and you can defeat them. Uless its on a gamemodes where they are totally OP, there are some cases where its basically impossible to beat them. Orkz vs Eldar on Planetary Bombardment is pitiful.

Lol. You're an idiot. Leave these forums, ♥♥♥♥ posting anime display picture kid.

you sure showed who is smarter with your 2+2chan picture, bro!

[Aetrion]

Originally posted by Ξ AXI Ξ:

Thats a long post.

I read part of the first sentence tho, I think you are making a false dichotemy.

The Eldar are weak against spam, Imperial are great at spam. Play like an Imperial, and you can defeat them. Uless its on a gamemodes where they are totally OP, there are some cases where its basically impossible to beat them. Orkz vs Eldar on Planetary Bombardment is pitiful.

I didn't say Eldar can't win, I said Eldar are so utterly atrocios at all the fundamentals of the game that you need to micromanage them to an absurd degree and are entirely reliant on the one single weapon they have that does such obscene damage that it makes enemies die just as fast as Eldar do.

Originally posted by С Г エ χ:

>Oh, and having an Ulthwe ship is basically the most worthless thing ever.
Oh, so this is a troll post! Clever how you completely ignore the real reason people take it.

What is the real reason people take it? +30 troop value against lightning strikes? I mean that's great and all, but it doesn't even remotely justify an ability that should be area denial but does so little damage that enemies can ignore it completely and likely won't even notice.

[C4NNED]

Eldar ships are not designed for close quarters fighting for extended periods of time. they implemented the eldar correctly but they need to fix some of their weapons (star Cannons) as well as nurf the pulsars by making them do a little less damage and shorten range so they take skill to use. A nice game with mid tier eldar players is fun. but high tier eldar with 1 ship fleet gets pretty stupid because it glasses you instantly with no downside for them. The only way to successfully counter an eldar atm is Stealth hellbringer fleets with MoK and MoS with 3+ lightning strike. Chaos have no problem doing this. Imperials cant sneak for ♥♥♥♥. I guess imperials only option is admech Dauntless sword fleet with taunt but that still isnt optimal.

[Kamen Rider]

Devs have already said that they are going to make pulsars more high risk weapons to use by removing the 3k range upgrade forcing eldar to go to 6k (9k in case of VS) to use them, putting them in range of broadsides, trakktors, MoS silence etc, devs have said them will improve star cannons and create a new unique upgrade for them, and lastly the dev said they will be addressing the durability of eldar ships.

Second if you have ever played eldar in any iteration of the games from TT to Dawn of War you would have realized that eldar are a micro intensive faction that requires high skill to play well, hence the high micro requirement.

Third the eldar are faster, more manuverable and better kiters than every other existing and future faction in the game, it is irrelenvent if ships can go faster than your with AAF or BRB since those boosts are tied to a guage that must recharge while your boost has only a 19s CD and can make 180 turns on the drop of a hat with vauls maneuver

Lastly in-case you haven't played eldar recently many people have figured out that just like on TT the best way to beat holofields is with massed macro fire, and hence have started spamming swords, onslaughts, and iconoclasts vs eldar ships

malestorm does real work vs mass low hp escorts and furthermore becuase eldar attack from long range they never come into boarding action range, they have access to darkstar fighters and lauchbays on eclipse and viod stalker so their not vulnerable to assault boats so the only assault actions eldar worry about are lighting strikes which ulthwe favor provides near immunity vs

[Aelies von Saladir]

The idea behind them is 'difficult but awesome'. They're difficult to play right and are punished harshly for mistakes but are OP if played right.
Doesn't mean you have to agree with the idea, though.
And Ulthwe ships are all but immune to lightning strike. That's one of the Eldar's great weakness, as you've said in the OP. So choosing the favour to mitigate that weakness makes sense.

[С Г エ χ]

Originally posted by Aetrion:

Originally posted by С Г エ χ:

>Oh, and having an Ulthwe ship is basically the most worthless thing ever.
Oh, so this is a troll post! Clever how you completely ignore the real reason people take it.

What is the real reason people take it? +30 troop value against lightning strikes? I mean that's great and all, but it doesn't even remotely justify an ability that should be area denial but does so little damage that enemies can ignore it completely and likely won't even notice.

Yes, the +30 troop value is why people take it. Having a huge AOE damage ability is just a nice bonus. Not to mention you can combine it with stasis bombs.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by С Г エ χ:

Originally posted by Aetrion:

What is the real reason people take it? +30 troop value against lightning strikes? I mean that's great and all, but it doesn't even remotely justify an ability that should be area denial but does so little damage that enemies can ignore it completely and likely won't even notice.

Yes, the +30 troop value is why people take it. Having a huge AOE damage ability is just a nice bonus. Not to mention you can combine it with stasis bombs.

Biel-tan is still better. It makes lightning strikes worth a damn and gives you +20 troop value. Put a crew point into bladesworn and it basically has the same effect as Ulthwe does anyway. Maelstrom is garbage.

[Kamen Rider]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Biel-tan is still better. It makes lightning strikes worth a damn and gives you +20 troop value. Put a crew point into bladesworn and it basically has the same effect as Ulthwe does anyway. Maelstrom is garbage.

crew points give + 3 tro0p value
BT favor + 1 crew = 23 troop value

ulthwe favor grants +30 base troop value vs the only assualt action that can hit you if you dont play like ♥♥♥♥

malestrom is just icing on the cake

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by TenTonHammer:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Biel-tan is still better. It makes lightning strikes worth a damn and gives you +20 troop value. Put a crew point into bladesworn and it basically has the same effect as Ulthwe does anyway. Maelstrom is garbage.

crew points give + 3 tro0p value
BT favor + 1 crew = 23 troop value

ulthwe favor grants +30 base troop value vs the only assualt action that can hit you if you dont play like ♥♥♥♥

malestrom is just icing on the cake

I suggest you look at the math percentages before you make that assertion. 70 troop value gives you like an 89% chance of repelling an assault action anyway. That extra 3 points bumps it up over 90%. +30 is overkill and onky gives you a crappy ability with a huge CD.

Ulthwe is literally the worst Eldar favour out of all of them.

[Kamen Rider]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

I suggest you look at the math percentages before you make that assertion. 70 troop value gives you like an 89% chance of repelling an assault action anyway. That extra 3 points bumps it up over 90%. +30 is overkill and onky gives you a crappy ability with a huge CD.

Ulthwe is literally the worst Eldar favour out of all of them.

and i suggest you go on the main fourms and read the codex awnsers Q&A thread where people ask questions about game mechanics and Sio'are the dev responds so that you can understand how the game actually works

Originally posted by "Sio'are":

PROBABILITY OF BOARDING SUCCESS

what is the probability of a successful boarding action or lightning strike and how is this affected by troop value

The probability of Assault Actions success depends on one, or two things, depending the skill used :

Lightning Strike and Advanced Lightning Strikes (Demonic, Terminator, Avatar of Khaine), Assault Boats, Shokk Attack Mega-Kannon :
Chances of success :
100 - Enemy Troop Value.

Boarding actions :
100 - (Enemy Troop Value + Number of Close Defence System turrets still active).

so no
70 troop value does not give 89% defense and 3 troop points does not bump it to 90%

[Aetrion]

Originally posted by MY NAME:

Eldar ships are not designed for close quarters fighting for extended periods of time. they implemented the eldar correctly but they need to fix some of their weapons (star Cannons) as well as nurf the pulsars by making them do a little less damage and shorten range so they take skill to use. A nice game with mid tier eldar players is fun. but high tier eldar with 1 ship fleet gets pretty stupid because it glasses you instantly with no downside for them. The only way to successfully counter an eldar atm is Stealth hellbringer fleets with MoK and MoS with 3+ lightning strike. Chaos have no problem doing this. Imperials cant sneak for ♥♥♥♥. I guess imperials only option is admech Dauntless sword fleet with taunt but that still isnt optimal.

I understand what they are designed for, but the design just doesn't really work. The holofields just don't really well in practice on a faction that has all forward facing weapons and gets torn up at close range, because it means that you can only have useful defenses and actually deal damage while moving toward the enemy.

Of course the Void Stalker is considered to be unstoppable and overpowered, because if you need to micromanage every single second for all your ships then having a single crazy powerful ship that has enough health to forgive a mistake or two is way better than trying to do it with a whole fleet of ships each of which will die if you make a single mistake.

There is no incentive to play any other way with Eldar, the absurd micro requirement for them makes any extra ship a liability.

Originally posted by TenTonHammer:

Second if you have ever played eldar in any iteration of the games from TT to Dawn of War you would have realized that eldar are a micro intensive faction that requires high skill to play well, hence the high micro requirement.

There is a big difference between something being micro intensive and something that's just outright punishing to use if you don't keep total control of all your units at all times. The eldar ships in this game literally commit suicide if you give them an attack order and then don't follow that order up with individually plotted escape paths and speed boosts. Controlling a fleet of 4-5 escorts which will literally die to a single enemy volley if their holofield ever drops is ten times harder than controlling a single Void Stalker.

Originally posted by С Г エ χ:

Yes, the +30 troop value is why people take it. Having a huge AOE damage ability is just a nice bonus. Not to mention you can combine it with stasis bombs.

Do you understand that 4 damage per second is completely worthless in a game where ship hitpoints are measured in hundreds and ships will move through this effect in maybe 5 seconds tops? If someone gets stuck in the Maelstrom for it's full 45 second duration, which even with a stasis bomb (which is hard enough to hit anyone with) wouldn't ever happen they still only take 200 damage, and you have to buy a skill and a favor to even use this combo.

[Maschinengewehr]

Originally posted by TenTonHammer:

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

I suggest you look at the math percentages before you make that assertion. 70 troop value gives you like an 89% chance of repelling an assault action anyway. That extra 3 points bumps it up over 90%. +30 is overkill and onky gives you a crappy ability with a huge CD.

Ulthwe is literally the worst Eldar favour out of all of them.

and i suggest you go on the main fourms and read the codex awnsers Q&A thread where people ask questions about game mechanics and Sio'are the dev responds so that you can understand how the game actually works

Originally posted by "Sio'are":

PROBABILITY OF BOARDING SUCCESS





The probability of Assault Actions success depends on one, or two things, depending the skill used :

Lightning Strike and Advanced Lightning Strikes (Demonic, Terminator, Avatar of Khaine), Assault Boats, Shokk Attack Mega-Kannon :
Chances of success :
100 - Enemy Troop Value.

Boarding actions :
100 - (Enemy Troop Value + Number of Close Defence System turrets still active).

so no
70 troop value does not give 89% defense and 3 troop points does not bump it to 90%

So theres a whopping 7% chance difference then. Much wow. Biel-tan is still better as you can hit them back with twice as many assault actions in your own LS. See above for why Maelstrom is garbage..