FINAL FANTASY X/X-2 HD Remaster

FINAL FANTASY X/X-2 HD Remaster

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SoloTrolo Nov 28, 2017 @ 5:48pm
Question about Jecht... (will contain spoiler)
If Jecht is a dream like Tidus and came from fayth... Does Sin also accept a being that was originally from a dream?

Because Jecht said that he ended up in the world and he didn't know how to get back to his own world. So he's technically a fayth in the real world. But if that's true, then does Sin accept anything/any being in the final fight?
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Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
Hinnyuu Nov 28, 2017 @ 11:27pm 
Originally posted by EcG Solo:
Because Jecht said that he ended up in the world and he didn't know how to get back to his own world. So he's technically a fayth in the real world.
Actually, he's more technically an aeon. So is Sin, by the way. But it doesn't really matter, since the distinction between fayth and aeon is already somewhat blurred.

Essentially, think of aeons being a mixture of substance (a soul) and form (a will). The soul is what serves as an anchor for pyreflies, which are pressed into a form by a strong will.

In the case of an aeon, the soul comes from the fayth, and the will comes from the summoner.

In the case of an unsent, both soul and will come from the same source (one being) but this only works as long as the will is stable.

In the case of a fiend, the will is degraded and reduced only to powerful, blind emotion (usually hatred, fear, anger, resentment, etc.).

You can see that the more powerful the will, the more powerful the result - which is why you need an exceptionally strong-willed summoner to be able to create an aeon powerful enough to defeat Sin.

Sin itself is, of course, an aeon - its fayth is the Fayth Cluster, fueled by the souls of countless Zanarkandians. And its summer is Yu-Yevon, who himself is an unsent by now and reduced entirely to pure will (to the point where his shape is almost entirely abstract).

Yu-Yevon is very special, though. It is for good reason that he is called peerless, because he is constantly summoning not only Sin but ALSO the entire Dream of the Fayth, i.e. Dream Zanarkand. We don't know how or where that Zanarkand takes shape, though. It may be a dream in its truest sense, i.e. existing as an abstract on some disconnected plane; or it may exist on the Farplane, which we know is funky enough with physics; or it may in fact exist somewhere in the real world (though I find that unlikely). Personally I believe that Zanarkand is tucked away on the Farplane, which is sort of an intermediate realm between body and soul. It would also explain why fayth like Bahamut (who are not part of the Fayth Cluster) are concerned about the Dream of the Fayth - they may simply be connected to the other fayth through the Farplane. Indeed, Bahamut has no trouble manifesting on the Farplane in X-2, while the only other times we see him is in Bevelle - in proximity to his physical form - and within Dream Zanarkand.

Now, paradoxically that would mean Yu-Yevon is also the summoner of Tidus and Jecht - i.e. that one of his own summons became the fayth for his other summoning (Sin), AFTER it became the fayth and the summoning of ANOTHER summoner (Braska). It sounds strange, but if you think of fayth simply supplying the soul needed to shape into a summon, it doesn't actually matter much who does what. As long as the will involved is powerful, whether it comes from the fayth itself or the summoner is irrelevant - as we can see with e.g. Seymour, who has no trouble taking fiend- or aeon-like forms on his own after his death without the need for a summoner. I suspect that while any strong will could do this, the reason we have fayth in the Yevonite form (i.e. souls trapped in statues) is to preserve their sanity in the long term. Without a strong anchor to the physical world, the will erodes over time and results in a fiend; and the more powerful the manifestation of that will, the faster this happens. Since fayth need to be very powerful manifestations (i.e. aeons) they need something to keep them from going insane and becoming fiends - which is why their souls are tethered forcefully to the world through their stone containers. The most remarkable case, in my opinion, is someone rather unassuming, though: Mei'chen, who has managed to retain his shape and his sanity for over 1,000 years without any summoner or physical fayth form. It is no surprise he didn't remember, surrendering his will to his scholarly pursuits was probably what served as a powerful enough focus to keep his soul centered.

But let us go back to Sin. Sin is fueled by the Fayth Cluster, but also by the soul of whoever last became the Fayth of the Final Summoning. By using the entirety of that soul, Sin is overpowered - and it is likely that what allows it to do so is the sacrifice of the High Summoner. HOW exactly that works, we do not know; whether the aeon simply kills the summoner in mindless rage as it is summoned, or whether the summoner dies only after Sin is defeated... all we have are vague implications that are often hung up on phrasing that may simply be translation ambiguity. However, since it seems to be unavoidable (this is never questioned) we can assume that it is something inherent in the process of completely spending one soul to create an aeon. Perhaps it takes an equally unnatural amount of willpower to do so, and this causes a fatal degree of mental exhaustion in the summoner; or perhaps one soul is not enough and the summoner has to sacrifice a part of their own soul to make it happen. Something along those lines.

Either way, the Final Aeon is still just an aeon - a mass of soul kept in its shape by a will. I suspect that it is precisely BECAUSE it is an aeon, i.e. that the will comes from an external source, the summoner, that Yu-Yevon can subsequently take control of it, since the original summoner is dead. If it was simply an unsent or a fiend, this would probably not work to the same degree. Yu-Yevon then takes this new soul and supplies his own will, drawing additional fuel from the Fayth Cluster to re-summon Sin. He becomes the overriding will at its core, and as we can see from Jecht, even strong-willed fayth hosts lose themselves in Sin eventually. Jecht probably held on longer than most, but 10 years in he's already nearly gone (and certainly not strong enough to hold Sin back completely, though he seems to be able to rein it in a little bit).

So, to answer your question: as long as it is an AEON rather than any other form of manifestation (unsent or fiend) it seems that Yu-Yevon can supplant the original summoner and take control. Whether or not he COULD do the same with a fiend or unsent is unclear, but certainly aeons make for better targets considering they are the most powerful kind of manifestation. An interesting question would also be what would happen if Yu-Yevon took control of a "regular" aeon rather than the Final Aeon - i.e. an aeon with an intact fayth. Or perhaps it is Yu-Yevon taking over which depletes the fayth statue in the first place (though this wouldn't explain why the Final Summoning is so extraordinarily powerful).
Lord Quinton Nov 29, 2017 @ 5:12am 
that was a hell of an answer...

I think your right about Dream Zanarkand being on the farplane, remember that Auron died fighting yunalesca (i think that was her name) and then through sheer force of will wandered over to Zanarkand, grabbed his friends son Tidus, and summoned both himself and Tidus into 'reality'.
(sheer force of will or just bloody spite, take your pick)

One thing I don't think was ever explained in X was how Jecht got into the world, perhaps it was explained in X-2, or i forgot.
Hinnyuu Nov 29, 2017 @ 5:51am 
Originally posted by Lord Quinton:
One thing I don't think was ever explained in X was how Jecht got into the world, perhaps it was explained in X-2, or i forgot.
It's not explicitly mentioned how this happened. The fayth say he was "touched by Sin" but we don't know what that means, exactly. One possibility is that it was something the fayth did deliberately in an effort to end their dreaming. Or maybe it was just coincidence, and he lucked his way out. Since Sin and Dream Zanarkand are connected (both being summons of Yu-Yevon) it's possible Jecht simply found a connection point by accident. We know he "went out to sea to train" and being the cocky prick he is maybe he just swam farther than anyone ever before. Or something.
Last edited by Hinnyuu; Nov 29, 2017 @ 5:52am
Lord Quinton Nov 29, 2017 @ 8:34pm 
I thought the original Zanarkand was at war with another country, and the other country summoned Sin, who got out of control, ate both countries, and then wandered around eating everything and everyone until Yevon figured out how to appease Sin with the ultimate summons or something like that. that happened several hundred years before the actual game took place, I seem to recall Al-Bhed was involved somehow.
Last edited by Lord Quinton; Nov 29, 2017 @ 8:35pm
Hinnyuu Nov 30, 2017 @ 1:54am 
Originally posted by Lord Quinton:
I thought the original Zanarkand was at war with another country, and the other country summoned Sin, who got out of control, ate both countries, and then wandered around eating everything and everyone until Yevon figured out how to appease Sin with the ultimate summons or something like that. that happened several hundred years before the actual game took place, I seem to recall Al-Bhed was involved somehow.
No, that's not what happened. Zanarkand was at war with Bevelle, that much is true. Bevelle was a machina superpower, and really, Zanarkand never stood a chance. When defeat was on the horizon, with Zanarkan refusing to surrender, most of the last surviving Zanarkandians made a decision to sacrifice themselves and all become fayth - with Yu-Yevon, the leader of Zanarkand, as the summoner.

We don't know whether that was simply mass "suicide" to transition over to Dream Zanarkand, forever out of Bevelle's reach - or whether this was a deliberate attempt to summon a gigantically powerful aeon, i.e. Sin, in hopes of defeating Bevelle after all - or both. Fact is, Yu-Yevon created Sin and it made short work of Bevelle's armies and of the rest of Spira. Realizing that Sin was a world-ending threat, some of the last surviving summoners from Zanarkand, namely Yu-Yevon's daughter Yunalesca and her husband Zaon, came up with the Final Summoning in order to defeat Sin. And the rest is history.
Moridin Dec 1, 2017 @ 2:08pm 
Sin aint a Aeon. the first version was made by gravity magic and pyraflies. Yu Yevon made it to protect him as he summoned Dream Zanarkand.
It returns for its spawn cause to get stronger/heal it has to absorb large amouts of pyraflies, which explains why it absorbed Seymour.

Dream Zanarkand is also physically in spira, (Sin took Auron to it when Jecht was still in control). so that makes Tidus, Jecht and everyone else in the dream zanarkand Aeons.

Sin was never intended to destroy Bevelle and the other machina cities, when Yu Yevon died and became a unsent, it then destroyed zanarkand, bevelle and the other machina cities.

I dont think anywhere actually states why yunaleska tried to stop Sin, though what Hinnyuu said about it is probably accurate.
Last edited by Moridin; Dec 1, 2017 @ 2:09pm
Hinnyuu Dec 1, 2017 @ 6:18pm 
Originally posted by Moridin:
Sin aint a Aeon. the first version was made by gravity magic and pyraflies.
Where's your source on that? Sin uses gravity magic, but that's a far shot from being MADE by gravity magic - after all, many aeons also use different kinds of magic, that doesn't mean they're MADE by it. We know Yu-Yevon is a summoner, and that he created Sin - what, then, is Sin if not an aeon, the will of a summoner made manifest?

Originally posted by Moridin:
Dream Zanarkand is also physically in spira
That's pure speculation. We have no proof of that. In fact, considering Tidus' consciousness is transported there during his encounter with the Fayth Cluster, it's actually more likely it's NOT a physical realm.

Originally posted by Moridin:
Sin was never intended to destroy Bevelle and the other machina cities, when Yu Yevon died and became a unsent, it then destroyed zanarkand, bevelle and the other machina cities.
Do you have any source for that? The game never says what the INTENTIONS were. And considering Sin's name, it's very possible that the destruction it wreaks on those who destroyed Zanarkand was not at all unintended. We know Sin is used by Yu-Yevon as a protective armor, but one would assume that such an armor didn't have to be a giant killing machine running rampant across the world. Not to mention that we have many indications in-game that Sin is driven to destroying human settlements in particular, which would be an odd coincidence if it wasn't part of its design.
SoloTrolo Dec 1, 2017 @ 6:51pm 
Well... I'll be replaying the entire game again.
Im just gonna record the entire game and get all the scenes out lol...
Moridin Dec 2, 2017 @ 2:06pm 
translations of the ultimania guide, wiki and other sources.


infact http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sin and http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_Zanarkand . sure you can ignore those as data sources.

i am curious as to where you got your info @hinnyuu given that even when i had only played the game that i never thought the Faith on gagazet was powering Sin.
Last edited by Moridin; Dec 2, 2017 @ 2:20pm
DRUNK_CANADIAN Dec 4, 2017 @ 4:26am 
So I am confused now about the actual history of Sin....the existence of Zanarkand and duality of the "real events, and the dream"
Moridin Dec 4, 2017 @ 4:41am 
basics? ok. Yu Yevon made Sin as a armour for himself using gravity magic and pyraflies. it was to protect him while he made use of the fayth, made by a fair portion of zanarkand survivors, to summon a dream...or you could say Aeon, zanarkand in order to preserve the city forever. stuff happend, he died/lost control and Sin went and killed people to get the pyraflies people turn into when they die. this was to make it stronger.

dream zanarkand was someplace out in the sea, beyond where people from the continent called Spira could reach.

Yunalesca, daugher of yu yevon, turned her husband into the final summoning and killed Sin. Yu Yevon possessed the summoning, killed his daugher and made the summon the new core of sin to keep summoning zanarkand.

yunalesca became unsent, people spread how she beat it, temples and the religion of Yevon appeared. became cemented as the main faction of spira 600 years later when high summoner Gandof killed Sin using the final summoning.

eventually, in a effort to put a end to the dreaming/summoning the faith had Jecht taken by sin, making him more then just a aeon in the process, when that failed they brough in Tidus and the game starts.
Kinichie Dec 4, 2017 @ 5:40pm 
Tidus & Jecht are for all intensive purposes, Aeons. Both exist as they are part of the summoning of Dream Zanarkand by the hundreds of fayth on Gagazet. Dream Zanarkand exists somewhere in Spira that is never visited by us players except for the Prologue. Allegedly its location is somewhere near Baaj Temple (Anima's Temple) and only Sin and Auron have visited it. Why we can't visit it is never explained, however its existence is proven by several pieces of information in the game (most notably the Fayth of Mt Gagazet and the fact Tidus and Jecht 'exist' at all) and by the knowledge that its continued existence is the sole driving force of Yu Yevon to continue making Sin to protect it.

The original Sin never had an Aeon at its core, and was summoned by Yu Yevon to protect Dream Zanarkand using the same fayth that summoned the city. Presumably the core for this Sin was Yu Yevon himself, the reason that every Sin afterwards has The Final Aeon at its core is because the strain of maintaining Sin eventually destroyed Yu Yevon's mind, and turned him into a mindless entity bent solely on destroying Technological Civilizations that may harm or discover Dream Zanarkand. For the 1000 years after the creation of Dream Zanarkand and events of Final Fantasy X, Yu Yevon exists solely to preserve Dream Zanarkand and to ensure Sin's survival to protect Dream Zanarkand. For every Sin destroyed, he would create a new one, as the 'calm' was merely the time it took for Sin to be created and become strong enough to become the force we all know it is again.

So since Yu Yevon inhabits Aeons and uses them as the core for Sin, and goes for the strongest Aeon as the protection/core for Sin (The Final Aeon), and Jecht is an Aeon from the start, it did not matter to him that he inhabited him. We know that Yu Yevon goes for the strongest Aeon available because after Jecht is defeated inside Sin, he goes for the regular Aeons (Bahamut, Valefor etc.) afterwards.

The Final Aeon is a fayth created by Yunalesca. No, we don't know how she does it, and it's never demonstrated as by the time us players encounter her and have the chat, Auron, Tidus and Yuna have decided that Yunalesca is going down. The main thing about all of this however is to note that when we players finally get Yuna to the Statue of the Fayth for the Final Aeon and discover the Fayth is missing, the reason it is missing is because it is currently being Summoned. For us players when we get to Zanarkand with Yuna, the current Fayth is Jecht. However he doesn't pop up and say 'Hello' because Yu Yevon has him summoned as the core for Sin. We know that Fayths can only be summoned by one summoner at a time because there are times in the game Yuna goes up against other Summoners, and cannot summon Ifrit if the opponent is currently Summoning Ifrit. Other examples exist for other Aeons where they can and cannot be summoned during the story.

Quite how Jecht went from being a Summoned Aeon from the Fayth at Gagazet into being a Fayth of his own, I can't rightly explain. Something to do with Pyreflies, though it becomes a bit of a paradox somewhere along the line.

Since every Final Aeon is a Aeon/Fayth, and Jecht was transformed into being a much more powerful being on becoming the Final Aeon (The process of becoming an Aeon is never explicitly explained, though it can be assumed it is similar to how Seymour's mother became Anima as she is the most recent regular (Not Final) Aeon to be created) it is safe to assume that Jecht's paradoxical existence made little difference to how Yu Yevon creates and inhabits beings to maintain and control Sin.

Critically however, to the point in hand about Sin accepting any being as its Core, after Yu Yevon's defeat all the fayth cease to exist as they are free to enter the farplane. This is because Yu Yevon prevents the Fayth from passing to the Farplane because that's what keeps Dream Zanarkand alive (The main drawback for Yu Yevon is that this happens for all Fayth). As Sin and all the Aeons are made from the Fayth which Yu Yevon has 'created' and controls, its not much of a stretch to imagine that an Aeon from the Fayth being used to Summon both Dream Zanarkand and Sin is also being used as the Core for Sin.

When writing it like this, you do realise there are a few plot holes...
Last edited by Kinichie; Dec 4, 2017 @ 6:15pm
SoloTrolo Dec 5, 2017 @ 1:52pm 
Off track question. Why did the Fayth (the little boy) say that he and others were "tired" when Tidus visited the dream right before the Zanarkand Ruins area?
Moridin Dec 5, 2017 @ 2:34pm 
Originally posted by ||||||||||||||||||:
Off track question. Why did the Fayth (the little boy) say that he and others were "tired" when Tidus visited the dream right before the Zanarkand Ruins area?

The Fayth are being forced to use their memories of the real zanarkand by Yu Yevon to summon the dream zanarkand. I think he means they are tired of being forced to remember something for so long. well that and the fayth on gagazet being constantly used would have a effect on them.
DRUNK_CANADIAN Dec 6, 2017 @ 8:14am 
Originally posted by Moridin:
basics? ok. Yu Yevon made Sin as a armour for himself using gravity magic and pyraflies. it was to protect him while he made use of the fayth, made by a fair portion of zanarkand survivors, to summon a dream...or you could say Aeon, zanarkand in order to preserve the city forever. stuff happend, he died/lost control and Sin went and killed people to get the pyraflies people turn into when they die. this was to make it stronger.

dream zanarkand was someplace out in the sea, beyond where people from the continent called Spira could reach.

Yunalesca, daugher of yu yevon, turned her husband into the final summoning and killed Sin. Yu Yevon possessed the summoning, killed his daugher and made the summon the new core of sin to keep summoning zanarkand.

yunalesca became unsent, people spread how she beat it, temples and the religion of Yevon appeared. became cemented as the main faction of spira 600 years later when high summoner Gandof killed Sin using the final summoning.

eventually, in a effort to put a end to the dreaming/summoning the faith had Jecht taken by sin, making him more then just a aeon in the process, when that failed they brough in Tidus and the game starts.

But how does the FFX-2 story fit into this....were those the real people of Zanarkand....and how come Yuna has a previous incarnation or whatever.....I can see the Tidus equivalent since he is considered a dream entity....and keep it basic for me....I'm still trying to wrap my head around the basics.
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Date Posted: Nov 28, 2017 @ 5:48pm
Posts: 18