Expert Sphere Grid Discussion 『Spoiler Warning, view at your own discretion』

[Himiko]

Let's all be constructive and discuss the Expert Sphere grid and the best possible paths for each character to take once they've finished their own grid. There isn't an in-depth discussion about this on these forums yet, so now should be a fine time to start one.

We'll be specifically discussing the Expert Sphere Grid and not the Standard Sphere grid because I've used the former for as long as I can accurately remember.

Now, I actually finished the sphere grids for each character on the Highbridge before the second boss battle with Seymour due to the high AP gains per fight(8000+ AP per fight, but half of that value when encountering the firefighter fiends) However, I now stand at the first save sphere you encounter on Mt. Gagazette after the boss battle with Seymour Flux, contemplating where to take my characters next with a bunch of backed-up Sphere levels.

At the end of each characters path are level 3 key spheres that block the way from moving forward, so for those of you that don't know, level 3 key spheres can be obtained in good number at Mt. Gagazette when fighting Biran and Yenke by using the "Steal" ability on them. Make sure to teach Kimahri Steal and Use, preferably by taking him to Rikku's Sphere grid early in the game.

I've done some reading online, and it's interesting to read the opinions others have regarding where to take a character next after their initial sphere path, yet often-times they are also inaccurate with their claims about the stats on the sphere grid. I'll list my thoughts and concerns regarding each character by referring to my own current in-progress playthrough.

I'll start with the most absolute obvious ones, the magic casters:

Lulu and Yuna

Lulu is a magic caster, so naturally she should take Yuna's sphere grid after completing her own in order to gain more magic stats.

Yuna is similar in this regard. She is a magic caster, so she should enter Lulu's section of the sphere grid after completing her own.

Both of Yuna and Lulu's sphere grid paths are right next to eachother and also end right next to eachother as well, with only a single mere level 3 keylock separating them at the end, so it is very easy to have them swap paths. It's also worth noting Yuna has higher magic stats than Lulu, so once Yuna learns the most powerful Black Magic spells(as well as Holy), she becomes better than Lulu.

Tidus, Auron, and Wakka

Here is where I believe the real debate begins. There's been a lot of talk about where to send your physical attackers once they've completed their own grid. Most of them say Wakka's path is the best for any physical attacker as his path has "more" strength and HP stats than Tidus and Auron's, but is that actually true? The problem is, in most debates online I've read about this, these people have not actually taken the effort to count the stats on the grids themselves and do the math, so I decided to do it myself.

STR: Tidus(31) Auron(40) Wakka(31)
HP: Tidus(2,200) Auron(3,600) Wakka(3,400)
AGI: Tidus(30) Auron(10) Wakka (16)
ACC: Tidus(18) Auron(19) Wakka(27)
EVA: Tidus(19) Auron(8) Wakka(10)
DEF: Tidus(21) Auron(19) Wakka(17)
MAG DEF: Tidus(3) Auron(17) Wakka(0)

These are the amount of Strength, Hit Points, Agility, Accuracy, Evasion, Defense, and Magic Defense stats that can be obtained in Tidus, Auron, and Wakka's sphere grid paths, respectively. Magic, MP, and Luck stats are pretty irrelevant regarding these three characters, so I didn't bother counting those. Also, keep in mind I only counted stats that are directly on the respective character's sphere grid paths, or are directly adjacent to their sphere grid path, meaning it doesn't require any extra sphere levels to detour from their path to pick up the stat in question.

As we can see, the common beliefs of Wakka's path containing more Strength and HP than Auron's is false. Auron's path contains not only more Strength and HP, but also more defensive stats(although the difference in HP is negligible since the 200 more HP on Auron's path is due to an adjacent HP node he shares with Tidus). Whether the common assertions of the opposite being true was due to the expert sphere grid maybe having vastly different stat counts(doubt it) or simply because they were too lazy to do the math themselves, I don't know.

To summarize a comparison to these stats, Tidus's path excels in Agility and evasion(although the evasion is irrelevant, if you only care about the evasion, go down Yuna or Lulu's path since there is overwhelmingly much more there) yet loses heavily in HP, Auron's has the most Strength, Hit Points and overall defenses, and Wakka excels in Accuracy.

So the question is, where should these guys go after their own sphere path? It's going to come down to which stats you want to focus on in the short term, as well as what abilities you want them to learn. So for Wakka, do you want him to have more strength, HP, overall defenses and Auron's abilities, or do you want him to have more agility, evasion, and Tidus's abilities? Do you want Tidus to have more strength, HP, defenses and Auron's abilities, or is Wakka's accuracy and abilities important enough for you to take Tidus down Wakka's path after his own? And lastly, should Auron take Tidus's path for more Agility, accuracy and Tidus's abilities, or should he go down Wakka's path for more accuracy and Wakka's abilities? Discuss.

Rikku

My favorite character to play with, Rikku. Wherever I take her next is the most important to me, so I need to consider this carefully. Right away it seems as if Tidus's path is the best option since not only does his path have as much strength as Wakka's, but there is much more Agility and Evasion there. Rikku's primary stat is Agility, so going down a path with a lot of it to keep her primary stat growing along with strength is ideal. However, how important is that Accuracy stat? Is Wakka's path worth it?

Kimahri

And finally, lastly and most certainly least(gameplay wise, not character-wise) for me, Kimahri. I initially took him to Lulu's path to learn those weak tier 3 spells which are fire, water, thunder, and blizzard(huge mistake, never do this unless you are making him a full mage), then took him to Rikku's grid to learn steal and use, then turned around and went to Wakka's grid. Thanks to this, he's barely only halfway through his grid, if even that. Whether you guys think he should have gone another route and where he should take his 2nd route, feel free to discuss. I honestly couldn't care less, as I hardly use him as is, although others might be interested in knowing.

End

So there we have it. Feel free to discuss what I've talked about as well as contribute anymore stat findings on the grid(I'll maybe add contributions to my post), as I'm sure it would help many people make decisions regarding these matters(myself included). Keep in mind this is simply about what makes the most sense stats-wise, not about being creative. If you're looking to make your Auron a Black Mage, or your Lulu a physical attacker, look no further! Who's here to tell you not to? -Giggle-

It took me a long time to gather this information and type all of this, and I'm tired and sleepy. I'll end this post now.

[Hinnyuu]

I'm not sure this has much of a point. Everyone can get everything, you can customize all stat nodes, and most of endgame consists of using 1 ability (Quick Attack) and not much else. On every character. FFX isn't exactly the most complex skill system.

The main problem is that the game just isn't nearly challenging enough to warrant more thought about the skill system. You can go down any path you want on any character and finish the story just fine, heck you can just not use the SG at all and beat the game anyway.

Every enemy can be clobbered to death with attack, so there's not even demands on specific skills. Outside of superbosses, nothing requires you to use a lot of thought about what grid path you take.

The upside of all that is that you really can do whatever you want for your characters. Auron the mage is about as easy as Lulu the fighter, since all characters are ultimately equal save for their overdrives (Aeons aside). On the Expert Grid, you start well enough near the center that you can go into any direction with any character.

I suppose what merits discussion most of all is advice to be given to novice players. Experts will beat the game easily in any setup, but those new to the game may find a few spots tricky. Then again, the Standard Spere Grid is fairly defined and just following the set paths will give you everything you need...

If you really want to be a min/max tryhard, send everyone down Tidus'/Auron's path. Both are about equal in terms of physical power, but Tidus' ends in the best ability for endgame (Quick Hit) meaning you want to go there in any case, while Auron's has a lot of marginal abilities (e.g. Guard, Sentinel). I like to go Tidus for Cheer/Haste, then dip into Auron for Armor Break (useful on some monsters for easy capture) and back to Tidus all the way to Quick Hit.

Alternatively, you can also destroy the storyline game with magic, which tends to scale really well early on. Doublecast is ridiculous once you get there, but most of the story will be over at that point. Still, even just -ra/-ga elemental spells can do serious damage against most enemies, often overkilling easily for even more leveling fuel. The downside is that you are boosting a stat that's irrelevant at endgame (MAG) and not picking up any endgame-relevant abilities.

Speaking of abilities, here's what I consider the must-haves for endgame and the grinding process:

Quick Hit - no-brainer, the best ability in the game and the bread and butter of all superboss fights
Provoke - vastly underrated and crucial for shutting down things like Greater Marlboros and Spirits in Omega, making capturing them a breeze
Armor Break - huge QoL improvement against high-defense enemies like elementals or flans, mostly for capturing purposes
Entrust - allows you to chain Auron's Banishing Blade overdrive to 100% break the armor on early arena farms (Juggernaut and Fafnir), vastly improving the early endgame grind
Steal - simply for the Lvl. 3 key spheres on Yenke and Biran, as you can pretty much steal your entire demand of these spheres in a single fight; since that is a Kimahri-only fight, make sure to grab the ability with him (to shortcut you need a Lvl. 1 key sphere which you can get in Mi'hen)
Dispel - having this is practically mandatory for the Penance fight, and it's somewhat useful on a few story bosses here and there

That's it. Everything else is nice, but often a waste of time. Even Haste or Cheer, while very useful, are often simply overkill. Protect/Shell are sometimes helpful, but if you level aggressively you'll find them unnecessary.

Of course, that's just for crazy I-know-every-fight-inside-out min/maxing. Don't be afraid to try out things, experiment, and make your own experiences. There is literally nothing you can screw up permanently, and nowhere you can go unfixably wrong. Whatever you do with your Grid during early game, you can still get the 100% perfect setup at endgame if you so desire. So do not hesitate to do something just because it sounds cool!

[Himiko]

Originally posted by Hinnyuu:

I'm not sure this has much of a point. Everyone can get everything, you can customize all stat nodes, and most of endgame consists of using 1 ability (Quick Attack) and not much else. On every character. FFX isn't exactly the most complex skill system.

The main problem is that the game just isn't nearly challenging enough to warrant more thought about the skill system. You can go down any path you want on any character and finish the story just fine, heck you can just not use the SG at all and beat the game anyway.

Every enemy can be clobbered to death with attack, so there's not even demands on specific skills. Outside of superbosses, nothing requires you to use a lot of thought about what grid path you take.

The upside of all that is that you really can do whatever you want for your characters. Auron the mage is about as easy as Lulu the fighter, since all characters are ultimately equal save for their overdrives (Aeons aside). On the Expert Grid, you start well enough near the center that you can go into any direction with any character.

I suppose what merits discussion most of all is advice to be given to novice players. Experts will beat the game easily in any setup, but those new to the game may find a few spots tricky. Then again, the Standard Spere Grid is fairly defined and just following the set paths will give you everything you need...

If you really want to be a min/max tryhard, send everyone down Tidus'/Auron's path. Both are about equal in terms of physical power, but Tidus' ends in the best ability for endgame (Quick Hit) meaning you want to go there in any case, while Auron's has a lot of marginal abilities (e.g. Guard, Sentinel). I like to go Tidus for Cheer/Haste, then dip into Auron for Armor Break (useful on some monsters for easy capture) and back to Tidus all the way to Quick Hit.

Alternatively, you can also destroy the storyline game with magic, which tends to scale really well early on. Doublecast is ridiculous once you get there, but most of the story will be over at that point. Still, even just -ra/-ga elemental spells can do serious damage against most enemies, often overkilling easily for even more leveling fuel. The downside is that you are boosting a stat that's irrelevant at endgame (MAG) and not picking up any endgame-relevant abilities.

Speaking of abilities, here's what I consider the must-haves for endgame and the grinding process:

Quick Hit - no-brainer, the best ability in the game and the bread and butter of all superboss fights
Provoke - vastly underrated and crucial for shutting down things like Greater Marlboros and Spirits in Omega, making capturing them a breeze
Armor Break - huge QoL improvement against high-defense enemies like elementals or flans, mostly for capturing purposes
Entrust - allows you to chain Auron's Banishing Blade overdrive to 100% break the armor on early arena farms (Juggernaut and Fafnir), vastly improving the early endgame grind
Steal - simply for the Lvl. 3 key spheres on Yenke and Biran, as you can pretty much steal your entire demand of these spheres in a single fight; since that is a Kimahri-only fight, make sure to grab the ability with him (to shortcut you need a Lvl. 1 key sphere which you can get in Mi'hen)
Dispel - having this is practically mandatory for the Penance fight, and it's somewhat useful on a few story bosses here and there

That's it. Everything else is nice, but often a waste of time. Even Haste or Cheer, while very useful, are often simply overkill. Protect/Shell are sometimes helpful, but if you level aggressively you'll find them unnecessary.

Of course, that's just for crazy I-know-every-fight-inside-out min/maxing. Don't be afraid to try out things, experiment, and make your own experiences. There is literally nothing you can screw up permanently, and nowhere you can go unfixably wrong. Whatever you do with your Grid during early game, you can still get the 100% perfect setup at endgame if you so desire. So do not hesitate to do something just because it sounds cool!

Yes, during end-game grinding, you can eventually get everything with every character regardless of what path you put them down first. However, this is about doing things in an order that makes sense. Not everyone even decides to do end-game grinding like that, so the first couple paths they decide to take with a given character would have a lot of impact on their character's overall stat development. My goal for this thread is to clear the preconceived notions about the best sphere grid paths to take, and to incite discussion about which ones are really the ones that make the most sense in the short-term(pre end-game grinding) depending on what you want to achieve.

Thing is, most people on the internet have said Wakka's path is the best path to take physical attackers once they've completed their own section of the grid, but I just can't see any reason to do that unless you want them to have high accuracy, which I think would be rather insignificant until end-game grinding and the hardest bosses. Auron's path has more strength stats, but Tidus's path has way more agility, so you'd be attacking more often, which essentially makes those paths even or slightly in Tidus's favor, as you said. So I do believe Tidus and Auron switching paths once they finish their own is probably the best choice, with Wakka taking either of their paths depending on whether you want him to be a bit tankier, or be quicker.

As for Rikku, as I said in my original post, I think Tidus's path would be best, since it has decent strength as well as high agility. I'd probably weave in and out of both Auron and Tidus's path anyways, especially if I decide to take some kind of warp sphere to the end of their grids for the superior stat bonuses.

Regardless of the paths they take, it shouldn't be too much of an issue to use certain spheres to teach your characters the essential abilities they need without actually going down that path first.

I don't know much about end-game grinding in general, as this will be the first playthrough I do all of that stuff, but I'll take this information in mind when moving forward.

All in all, your contribution is much appreciated. I'm sure a lot of people will find your information useful.

[Bobby Digital™]

wakka's because mages/hybrids miss too many physical attacks

[Dragon Crisis Core]

Theoriticly if your willing to put in the grind you could unlock everything for everyone its been so long sense i fully played the game so i forget the combo skills.

[Himiko]

Originally posted by Bobby Digital™:

wakka's because mages/hybrids miss too many physical attacks

That's a good point that lines up with what I said. Pretty much the only reason to take Wakka's route is for higher accuracy. Due to this, his path is a good first route to take for anyone you'd want to make a physical attacker. So Yuna, Lulu, and Kimahri would benefit from going there first.

Originally posted by k.mitch.gh:

Theoriticly if your willing to put in the grind you could unlock everything for everyone its been so long sense i fully played the game so i forget the combo skills.

I don't think you've been reading what's being said in this thread, as it's already been stated multiple times you can eventually grind each character to have everything if you so choose to. However, this is to discuss the strengths of each sphere grid path and best possible order for each character depending on what the player wants to achieve, for players that aren't planning on end-game grinding, or for those that simply want the knowledge and prefer doing things in the best order they possibly can. Let's stop repeating ourselves about the obvious possibility of grinding each character to have every ability and stat node in the game, and start talking about what the thread was made for.

[Hinnyuu]

I don't know how much people grind, but I find that even with fairly intensive grinding I finish a SG path by about Gagazet and not earlier. That's almost to the end of the story line, and at a point where it doesn't really matter where you go next.

I'm not sure why people feel they need more ACC from Wakka's path. Only swift and flying monsters tend to dodge a lot, and those are a fraction of the monsters you encounter. Wakka alone is usually enough to deal with them, with no need to get others involved. I much prefer going for STR instead to ramp up the damage, as that is what you are going to need for the early monster arena grind. Neither Juggernaut nor Fafnir have significant EVA stats, and can be hit even by the likes of Yuna/Lula on full magical setup.

It's all about the way the endgame grind works. The optimal setup for max stats is probably finishing the story until access to Sin, then going for 10 captures in each area immediately while finishing the Celestial Weapons as you go. Once that is done, grind for max STR, then sufficient AGI, then sufficient ACC, then max DEF, then max MDEF, then max EVA, then sufficient LCK. Order is somewhat flexible after STR, I guess. On the side you also grind money to make two sets of armor for everyone you want to use, one for Dark Aeons (Haste/Phoenix/Protect/Stoneproof) and one for Penance (Haste/Protect/20Def/Potion). Then you kill all the superbosses.

That plan obviously benefits the most from having high STR above all else, meaning Tidus + Auron. This also gives you Quick Attack (the most important ability) and Armor Break (very useful for capturing). I like to keep one character on magic, usually Lulu - it makes certain enemies easier and gives access to Double Cast + Demi/Ultima, which can be very helpful softening packs in Omega/Sin for easy capture. It is by no means required, however, and if you do plan on using Lulu at endgame you may want to put her on a STR path right away. Personally, I don't see the point of ever picking her; aside from her useless overdrive, her attack animation is also super long, meaning everything will take forever. Not to mention her CW is the hardest to get by far. They really did a number on her...

Considering how few abilities are actually worth using, I think it's no surprise that Tidus + Auron are the most efficient paths. There's a few nice skills to pick up here and there, but most you can do without.

My own personal favorite is to have Tidus, Wakka, Auron, Rikku go down Tidus' path for Cheer/Haste, and then down to the left where it junctions with Auron's path. Dip in for Armor Break, then go back and finish Tidus' path for Quick Attack. Then finish out Auron's path, then Wakka - usually I'll be at the arena farming stat spheres before I finish out Wakka's path, meaning it doesn't matter where I go.
For Kimahri, I go and pick up Steal/Use from Rikku's path, then connect back to Tidus and follow the same as above.
For Lulu, I go down her path all the way to Double Cast, pick up Holy, then park her at Ultima until I get enough Lvl. 4 Key Spheres to unlock it. Then off to Tidus and Auron, same as everyone else.
For Yuna, I go down her path until I get Dispel/Cura, then switch her over to Tidus and Auron with the others. Had her on Lulu first for a while, but two casters does really seem like overkill.

What's most important actually seems to be rationing of movement spheres. Teleport/Friend Spheres are extremely helpful at various switching points, but not infinitely (or easily) available during the story part.

[Random]

I pretty much always send the melee group down wakka's path second simply for the accuracy, with decent str. wakka I send down aurons path because they sort of join eachother and it's not too hard to backtrack a touch to go down it backwards.

Lulu's path leads into yuna's and yuna's leads into lulus, so they are pretty well second for eachother.

Rikku's path ends sort of in the middle of itself, and tehcnically tidas or yuna's paths are the closest, I personally sent her down yuna's to grab autolife (I didn't level rikku much at all until I was farming the monster arena).

My main toons for speed were tidas/wakka/auron when runing the campaign, while yuna was a regular sub in just to keep her aeon's reasonable for certain points.

But levelling is very easy using overdrive->ap items with dontonberry in the monster arena, so once I had the airship I blew the game stat curve out of the water (i played it all back on ps2 so I just wanted more efficiency as opposed to challenge).

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Random:

I pretty much always send the melee group down wakka's path second simply for the accuracy

What enemies do you find dodge a lot of your attacks? I really don't notice a problem at all, nothing except fliers dodges the non-Wakkas consistently and you hardly have more than 1 in a given pack. And if you do, magic works well enough against most (not Eyes, I guess).

I just don't find Accuracy all that useful in the early game, and would never trade extra STR/AGI for it. Not to mention all the status abilities are a complete joke.

[Random]

I'm already farming monster arena stuff by the time I finish a line, as I don't waste my time spinning around in circles to level to get passed early game encounters. so I don't have alot of unnecessary early game levels. health is worthless, str is fine, but wakka has just as much as tidas, and tidas' line is generally the 3rd path my guys go down, but when they do they finish the entire path in 1 go due to the 80 or so levels I have to spend from the monster arena, so it's all mute.

I think my current playthrough is 34 hours in and I have tidas 100% complete on the sphere grid with 255 in everything. Granted I had experience from the internaltion ps2 release, so I knew where everything was etc, meaning I could cut corners.

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Random:

wakka has just as much as tidas, and tidas' line is generally the 3rd path my guys go down

My question is simply, why go Wakka early and Tidus last? If as you say their stats are fairly identical, you're essentially trading AGI from Tidus for ACC from Wakka, and also picking up useless status abilities instead of things like Haste(ga) and Quick Hit. Of course you end up getting everything eventually anyway, but the question is simply why not go for something early that might actually be of use at the early parts of the game (like Haste), rather than pick up bad abilities and redundant stats (ACC)? Also it's easier to branch off into Auron for a few good abilities (e.g. Armor Break) from Tidus' line than it is from Wakka's.

[Random]

my armors have auto-haste so I don't need hastega. quick hit, sure, but once again, the difference to me is like 15 minutes of game play.

Like I said, I'm certainly not a normal case for your normal levelling study, so the ordering of lines is rather pointless to me. I was just saying that accuracy is more important for a character like auron, who can hit hard but has a poor chance to hit as a base.

Kimahri in the expert sphere grid, starts in the centre as a wild card, and I do send him down tidas' line first, so that's not a second choice for him, as its his primary. so the only "secondary" line people is basically rikku. as everyone else leads into another line already lulu->yuna yuna->lulu, wakka -> auron (backtrack 1 circle required) auron -> wakka, tidas -> auron.

So wakka backtracks a single circle to gets more mdef/def/str from auron, and auron gets more str/acc from wakka (his speed is irrelevant with a celestial weapon giving first strike).

Tidas' line ends up about 3/4 through auron's line, so I just finish the last circle of his and then go through wakka's line back to the start.

Your question was about the expert sphere grid second line choice, I just find it pointless to backtrack everyone down their line specifically to get into tidas' line when the vast majority (except rikku/kimahri) have set ends going into others via a lv3 key sphere.

Abilities are generally useless, except for autolife to prevent wipes, where auto-phoenix wont save you, or using an aeon to take the hit. Quick hit is only useful for end game bosses where you are trying to squeeze more out of your agi to get an extra turn in before a wipe move. But once again this is end game so you would have the entire sphere grid covered or atleast alot more than 2 lines.

[Hinnyuu]

Originally posted by Random:

my armors have auto-haste

I'm a bit confused now what we are actually talking about. If it's endgame, then why bother discussing paths - you have infinite levels at your disposal and can just fill at your leisure any which way you want.

Path choices, to me, seem only a meaningful discussion during early/mid game. And you most certainly will not have Auto-Haste available there.

[Random]

simple, the mid game is pretty much all about capturing 10 of each monster for the arena.

capture + peircing, pretty well negates the need for armour break. spells have cast animations and take too long when you are trying to capture stuff as fast as possible, thus attack, attack, attack. everytime a mob dodges, thats another attack required. you don't need excessive agility for mid game because they don't scale based on your level meaning you already out pace practically everything.

so assuming you do it over in order from besaid -> mt gagazet, you just need to not have things miss.

caqtuars dodge alot, gremlins dodge, birds dodge, wolves dodge, little raptors etc etc. there are quite alot of monsters in each zone with higher evade than accuracy from tidas/aurons path, they aren't a minority, and relying on a single character to hit them slows down your mid game farming.

for sin/omega, I would drop a don tonberry run or 2 before capturing them, and this is then leading towards end game prepping for armour etc.

but like I said, the path's lead into eachother, the second path choice is very obvious for every character depending on which sphere grid they went down first.

Tidas -> last auron circle -> wakka
Auron -> wakka (because you should have already got quickhit + entrust from the tiny 6 lvl offshot at the beginning of his last spiral!)
Wakka -> auron
Lulu -> yuna
Yuna -> lulu
Rikku -> tidas
Kimarhi see above.

the rest require more backtracking which are wasted levels. also the second path is generally taken backwards, meaning all the higher stat nodes are acquired first. the last circle from tidas -> auron gives you 12 str before you reach wakka's line, that's 30% of aurons entire str acquired on the way to wakka's accuracy.

Also you should consider the actual sphere level count for each path, because you have listed the stats, but not how many nodes are in each, tidas' path is longer than wakkas...

[Hinnyuu]

You're again talking about a time in the game where the story is essentially complete, and you have everyone and the freedom to go anywhere. It hardly matters where you go when at that point.

But what about before that? The time where choice actually matters is the story portion of the game.

Originally posted by Random:

capture + peircing, pretty well negates the need for armour break.

Armor Break is not for armored enemies per se, but for those with high defense. Elementals, flans, etc. will take a good number of regular attacks, but can be killed in 1-2 hits after armor break.