Python mk II has some of the worst hardpoint convergence I've ever seen on a combat ship

[Holeypaladin]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this, because it's a pretty serious design flaw.

I tried building a Python mk II with both Pacifiers and efficient APAs, and faced the same problem, twice. It simply can't hit an FDL with these weapons due to terrible hardpoint convergence. For a ship designed specifically to fight FDLs and Mambas, this is a big problem.

The reason why the FDL is a much better combat ship than the Mamba is not due to its hardpoints, as they're actually worse. It's because the FDL has some of the best hardpoint convergence of any ship in the game... certainly the best for a medium combat ship. A combat ship needs to be able to hit a Viper with its largest fixed weapons... in this regard, the Python mk II is worse than the Federal Corvette, which I stopped using due to its bad hardpoint convergence.

If you plan on fighting anything smaller than an Anaconda, forget about trying to use any cool weapons on the Python mk II. The only valid weapon choice is gimballed multicannons... which are just about the most boring thing imaginable, and near worthless against anyone with Dispersal Field plasmas, or Dangerous and higher NPCs who spam chaff 90% of the time.

[ждун]

Originally posted by Keepenater:

I've never flown a FDL. How is it overall? Assuming it's what you primarily use that is. I myself primarily use a Krait MKII. I've heard the FDL is over all the best combat ship in the game.

"Best combat ship" is highly subjective. I have flown everything in combat in all kinds of builds including some very exotic ones. What is the "best ship" depends mostly on what you want to do with it, your style and personal preference. Some build may be rocking combat zones, but suck in extraction sites for example.

I have flown classic FDL plasma / rail and also all fixed MCs and some laser builds too. I have also fown Krait MKII a lot. With beams, MCs, packhounds, frags. I would say FDL is one of the most specific ships, especially with plasma / rails, it has to be flown in a very specific style to be effective. Also its main purpose would be pvp and high intensity combat zones. It is good at dueling single strong enemies. For bounty hunting where you have to kill tons of relatively weak enemies in as short time as possible, FDL is not the most efficient mass killer. For mass killing I would always prefer pacifiers as the highest damage weapon in the game.

[sergioosh]

Originally posted by ждун:

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

If you're content to use gimballed lasers and multicannons, then sure, convergence doesn't matter. But if you want to use rails or plasmas, it does. Especially when shooting at Vultures. My entire point in this topic is that bad convergence ships like the PMK2 require you to use gimballed laser/multicannon builds, which I find boring. I kill high-ranked NPCs a whole lot faster with an absolute damage FDL, and it's also more fun.

You simply got used too much to a plasma / rail FDL.

The Python MK2 is much more deadly, as long you don't try to equip and fly it as plasma / rail FDL. P2 with plasma / rail will definetelly suck, not only because of convergence but also because of underdimensioned power supply and because of issues with heat.

just don't try to make rail / plasma FDL out of it and don't fly it like FDL.

You must understand you choose a weapon-set first, then chose the platform for these weapons, and not vice versa. For plasmas / rails P2 is simply not the ideal platform, its one of the worst thing you can do with plasmas and rails mounting them on Python 2.

And once again, Python 2 shines in close range combat with frags. You must fight with it from distances no more then 500m. You fly it completely different, not like FDL. In close range combat convergence of frags is pretty much irrelevant. In close range combat it will be extremelly deadly, much more deadly than FDL with plasmas / rails can ever be.

Also you don't care about chaffs with 4x pacifiers as your main damage battery.

My suggestion: If you really want to fly P2, forget about rails and plasma, use frags.
Or if you really want to use rails and plasma, and close range is not for you, then stick with FDL.

Agreed. I was able to beat a much more skilled PvPer than me using PMK2 with pacis while he used a meta FDL.

[ZombieHunter]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

NPCs will not destroy you as quick if you use gimballed as a PVP encounter will. PVPs are going to be running plasmas with some kind of effect. Those PVP plasmas will destroy you while your gimbals are lost b/c of chaff. There is a massive difference between PVP and PVE. Also splitting your thermals and ballistics on separate groups is not reducing DPS. You are wasting ammo trying to bring shields down with ballistics. My point is in PVE gimbals are fine, not in PVP. The NPCs won't kill you as fast as another player can or will.

What deals more damage, four guns, or two? The answer is pretty self-explanatory.

If you're worried about how quickly enemies can destroy you, then you're not dealing enough damage. The best way to avoid being destroyed is to kill the enemy faster than it can kill you. And if you can't kill an NPC before they run out of chaff ammo, then your damage is way too low.

Gimballs are bad against high-ranked NPCs, because their chaff lasts way longer than it takes to kill them, and they spam it constantly, making it nearly impossible to hit. They're only effective against low-ranked NPCs that don't spam chaff, or if the fight lasts so long (due to your low damage build) that they run out of chaff ammo.

Ballistics also deal more damage than lasers, so they're not wasted even against shields. 50% of 100 is more than 75% of 60. If you're worried about running out of ammo, then you're taking too long to kill things. Also, there's zero reason to split between thermal and ballistics if you use an Absolute damage build. It's effective against both, especially against high-ranked enemies with engineered resistances on their shields and hull. Rails are also effective against both, as their damage is split 50/50. And both of these weapon types require good convergence.

If you're content to use gimballed lasers and multicannons, then sure, convergence doesn't matter. But if you want to use rails or plasmas, it does. Especially when shooting at Vultures. My entire point in this topic is that bad convergence ships like the PMK2 require you to use gimballed laser/multicannon builds, which I find boring. I kill high-ranked NPCs a whole lot faster with an absolute damage FDL, and it's also more fun.

If the enemy uses chaff that is when you switch to rails. I would not use all of my hardpoints for one weapon type. As I said you need a balanced attack. For every hardpoint you use for a similar weapon, you cannot use for a different one. You must use your hardpoints efficiently. Because of this, convergence does not matter. This is not an X-wing or Tie-Fighter.

[Holeypaladin]

Originally posted by ждун:

You must understand you choose a weapon-set first, then chose the platform for these weapons, and not vice versa. For plasmas / rails P2 is simply not the ideal platform, its one of the worst thing you can do with plasmas and rails mounting them on Python 2.

This is indeed true, and the reason why I decided the PMK2 is not a very good fighter in situations where you are unable to stay close to the enemy. Its only viable builds are "get close to an enemy and destroy it with frags before he can put distance between you," and "use large gimballed multicannons and maybe a couple rails." FDL is a much better ship for plasma/rail builds.

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

If the enemy uses chaff that is when you switch to rails. I would not use all of my hardpoints for one weapon type. As I said you need a balanced attack. For every hardpoint you use for a similar weapon, you cannot use for a different one. You must use your hardpoints efficiently. Because of this, convergence does not matter. This is not an X-wing or Tie-Fighter.

If you want to split your weapons into multiple fire groups and kill slower, go ahead. But I've discovered that I kill things faster by using all of my hardpoints on a FDL than I ever did back when I used split fire groups on a Corvette. My point is that the PMK2 is not a good ship for plasma/rail builds, which are the builds that don't require you to split your fire groups. And I'm not alone in saying this.

[Raitøx]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

If you want to split your weapons into multiple fire groups and kill slower, go ahead. But I've discovered that I kill things faster by using all of my hardpoints on a FDL than I ever did back when I used split fire groups on a Corvette. My point is that the PMK2 is not a good ship for plasma/rail builds, which are the builds that don't require you to split your fire groups. And I'm not alone in saying this.

On the python MK2 i have no problem to use 4 long range imperials railguns (3
super-penetrator/ 1 cascade feedback) in the central Hardpoint (2L/2M) and using Two large fixed efficient laser beam with thermal vent to support shield striping or DPS on Large target or sometimes when i feel like it i use seeker missile instead of laser beam.

Just using the central Harpoint put the MK2 slightly under the FDL
MK2 : 2 Large + 2 Medium
FDL : 4 Medium + 1 Huge

If we convert everything to Large we have :
MK2 : 3 Large
FDL : 4 Large

I didn't count the two large hardpoint on the back left and back right because those two have bad convergence but they're still useful for :
- Shield striping because shield tend to be bigger than the ship they're protecting so you can still hit a vulture shield with those hardpoint even if fixed but don't even try to hit anything but large unshielded ship.
- Turret because the MK2 is still a multicrew ship so that's an option if you play with someone else which allow you to have some protection
- Seeker missile rack or even normal, seeker for small and medium ship and normal missile for Large ship

Python MK2 has also other advantage over the FDL like :
- 16T fuel tank (MK2) vs 8T fuel tank (FDL)
- Better jump Range for the MK2
- Access to Rank 6 shield (MK2) vs Rank 5 only (FDL)
- 4 Large/2 Medium Hardpoint (MK2) give more option as to what weaponry you can use against hull vs 1 Huge/4 Medium (FDL) because medium hardpoint only has 35 piercing on average (meaning 1 mandatory multi corrosive on one hardpoint)

The python MK2 is more than fine if you know what you're doing and are not an delusional ignorant which seem to be your case.

[cocoapuffs1000]

How is the Python mk2 with regular engineered frag cannons? Not pacifiers. I have never been into power play, although I might reconsider when it gets revamped next month.

[Lupinus Rictus]

Originally posted by cocoapuffs1000:

How is the Python mk2 with regular engineered frag cannons? Not pacifiers. I have never been into power play, although I might reconsider when it gets revamped next month.

It's good, at close range, a lot of damage.

[Holeypaladin]

Originally posted by cocoapuffs1000:

How is the Python mk2 with regular engineered frag cannons? Not pacifiers. I have never been into power play, although I might reconsider when it gets revamped next month.

You might want to gimball them. Gimballed large frags deal almost identical damage to pacifiers, but they aim for center mass on the enemy, so that more pellets hit due to the larger spread. Considering the convergence issues on the large hardpoints, they might be a better option than pacifiers, especially at very close range where spread isn't a big deal.

[Keepenater]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Originally posted by cocoapuffs1000:

How is the Python mk2 with regular engineered frag cannons? Not pacifiers. I have never been into power play, although I might reconsider when it gets revamped next month.

You might want to gimball them. Gimballed large frags deal almost identical damage to pacifiers, but they aim for center mass on the enemy, so that more pellets hit due to the larger spread. Considering the convergence issues on the large hardpoints, they might be a better option than pacifiers, especially at very close range where spread isn't a big deal.

How's the ammo consumption on them Holey? I've never synthed ammo so without doing that how many fights can you go through on average before needing more.

[Holeypaladin]

Originally posted by Keepenater:

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

You might want to gimball them. Gimballed large frags deal almost identical damage to pacifiers, but they aim for center mass on the enemy, so that more pellets hit due to the larger spread. Considering the convergence issues on the large hardpoints, they might be a better option than pacifiers, especially at very close range where spread isn't a big deal.

How's the ammo consumption on them Holey? I've never synthed ammo so without doing that how many fights can you go through on average before needing more.

Depends how you engineer them. Double shot will deal the most damage, but also burn through ammo extremely quickly. High cap is probably the most ammo efficient... almost as much damage as Overcharged and Double Shot, but it requires you to tap the trigger twice as much. And the Screening Shell experimental will halve your reload times, which doubles your DPS but burns through ammo like crazy.

Frags are one of the less ammo efficient weapons in general, though. Don't expect ammunition to last as long as it does with other weapons. More ammo efficient than pack hounds and torpedoes, at least.

If I ever make a point blank range ganking build, I'll probably use all gimballed frags, give the mediums Overcharged + one Corrossive Shell and one Drag Munitions, to prevent the enemy from running too much and because frags have terrible armor penetration (the FDL and Corvette both have 70 armor hardness, while large frags only have 45 armor piercing). For the large I'd probably use High Cap + Screening Shell for high DPS with fewer reloads.

Keep in mind that point blank range means just that. Regular Frags have terrible spread and are very ineffective beyond 200m or so.

[ждун]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

This is indeed true, and the reason why I decided the PMK2 is not a very good fighter in situations where you are unable to stay close to the enemy.

With the lightweight frag build that I posted on the first page I have no such issue. Nothing gets away from me and I can outmaneuver anything, even fighters, though I usually ignore them. I can effectivelly stick on enemies tails not allowing them to shake me off, face towards me and fire their weapons. Its easy with PMK2, its one of the most maneuvarable ships. Fully engineered and with 4 pips to engines (this is how you fly a frag build) you are faster and more maneuvarable than any NPC in the game.

You should know that most NPCs will not boost when you are too close. I mean really close, 200m or less, then they try to shake you off differently, they try to get slower and let you pass. If youre prepared you probably can kill them faster before they realise that this doesn't work and try something else.

The exception to this are only FDL's and cobras. Those always try to boost off you right away. But here too, if you know that and youre prepared they should not be able to shake you off.

Note also that the lightweight frag build that I posted on first page, carries two gimbaled frags in the medium hardports. These are for debuffs only. One of them is applying drag munitions, the other corrosive debuff.

Drag munitions debuff is absolutely overpowered, it seriously cripples their engines effectivelly making them a sitting duck and you can reapply it again and again and keep them crippled at all times. Drag munitions debuff strips all their pips from engines capacitor. Meaning they become slow and much less maneuvarable and also their eng capacitor is not refilling, which means they can boost one or two times at most, and even then their boost is a fart with drag applied.

When I engage an FDL for example, I know as soon it gets hit it will boost. So the first thing I hit it with is drag debuff. They do boost, but it doesn't help them much. Im still faster even without boosting too.

Maybe try drag debuff, if you have problems staying close to the enemy.

[ждун]

Originally posted by cocoapuffs1000:

How is the Python mk2 with regular engineered frag cannons? Not pacifiers. I have never been into power play, although I might reconsider when it gets revamped next month.

Yea, will work but of course not as deadly as with pacifiers. Pacifiers are a lot more powerful than normal frags, due to their narrow cone which allows you to hit with all projectiles from about 500m away already. And due to the faster projectile speed. With normal frags you would need to be even closer to be effective.

But using normal frags is a good training for close range combat. With normal frags you MUST be extremely close. I learned close range combat with a vulture equipped with normal frags. Was really good training. I have learned a lot.

I would take fixed frags on the large hardpoints and gimbaled on the medium. Use medium gimbaled for debuffs and fixed large for damage.

Nevertheless, even with normal frags it will be very effective.

[ждун]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Originally posted by cocoapuffs1000:

How is the Python mk2 with regular engineered frag cannons? Not pacifiers. I have never been into power play, although I might reconsider when it gets revamped next month.

You might want to gimball them. Gimballed large frags deal almost identical damage to pacifiers, but they aim for center mass on the enemy, so that more pellets hit due to the larger spread. Considering the convergence issues on the large hardpoints, they might be a better option than pacifiers, especially at very close range where spread isn't a big deal.

I would go fixed on large and gimbaled on outside medium pods.
large ones are the main damage dealers and +15% more damage is worth it.
With gimbaled normal frags you will be effectivelly taken out of action by chaffs. Chaffs will almost nullify the chance to hit them with more than a few framgents from normal frags with their wide cone. You will hate chaff spammers with gimballed only.
You don't really need gimbals with PMK2 flown with 4 pips to ENG. You are extremely maneuvarable and it is not difficult to aim fixed weapons with it. I use gimbals on outside medium hardpoints only so I can apply the debuffs any time at any angles. I use them only for applying debuffs, and for that it is not necessery to hit them with all projectiles. If even only one fragment hits, it applies the debuff. So gimballed frags are actually very effective at applying debuffs, even when the enemy is spamming chaffs, there is a very good chance that at least one fragment hits.

[ждун]

Originally posted by Keepenater:

How's the ammo consumption on them Holey? I've never synthed ammo so without doing that how many fights can you go through on average before needing more.

With frags you will have to synth, they eat ammo in no time.

Consider using High Cap Magazines engineering. It helps a lot at ammo economy but it also increases damage. You deal a little bit more damage with Double Shot (but not that much more), however you can kill much more enemies with the same amount of materials. Because you have double amount of ammo and, which is even more important, with high cap engineering also each synth makes double amount of ammo for same materials.

[cocoapuffs1000]

For regular frags, I am going to try fixed for the 4 large slots with high cap magazine. I was undecided on the experimental effect. I was thinking oversized but the reload time is annoying. so maybe auto loader. I am not good enough with them yet to get a feel for whether the damage output needs a boost. The 2 medium frags will get corrosive and probably drag munitions...