Python mk II has some of the worst hardpoint convergence I've ever seen on a combat ship

[Holeypaladin]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this, because it's a pretty serious design flaw.

I tried building a Python mk II with both Pacifiers and efficient APAs, and faced the same problem, twice. It simply can't hit an FDL with these weapons due to terrible hardpoint convergence. For a ship designed specifically to fight FDLs and Mambas, this is a big problem.

The reason why the FDL is a much better combat ship than the Mamba is not due to its hardpoints, as they're actually worse. It's because the FDL has some of the best hardpoint convergence of any ship in the game... certainly the best for a medium combat ship. A combat ship needs to be able to hit a Viper with its largest fixed weapons... in this regard, the Python mk II is worse than the Federal Corvette, which I stopped using due to its bad hardpoint convergence.

If you plan on fighting anything smaller than an Anaconda, forget about trying to use any cool weapons on the Python mk II. The only valid weapon choice is gimballed multicannons... which are just about the most boring thing imaginable, and near worthless against anyone with Dispersal Field plasmas, or Dangerous and higher NPCs who spam chaff 90% of the time.

[ждун]

Huh? Python MK2 equipped with 4x pacifiers (what weapons are cooler?) is the deadliest ship you can get. Almost 400 sustained dps. Convergence is no problem at all with this build and you can kill anything in a matter of seconds.

https://edsy.org/s/vAduQw6

https://youtu.be/ODSgzbHJz2w

I have already blown away elite ships with a single salve from the pacifiers.

PMK2 is not an FDL and it has to be flown differently. It is designed to be close range brawler. Fly it like a big vulture. Use frags and pacifiers, not MC's, no PAs or something. Engage from close range (<500m) and stick close. Don't allow them to gain distance and lure you into face tanking.

[Sighman]

Agreed on the short-range blaster. 4 x pacifiers and 2 x frags

https://inara.cz/elite/cmdr-fleet-ship/325280/4830119/

[XG99]

Another build option is 2 beams in the smaller hardpoints, and 4 large multis in the size 3 hardpoints.

Or you could put in 2 large beams and a mix of large and medium multis.

Or 2 large and 1 medium pulse or burst, and 2 large and 1 medium multis.

[funkynutz]

Meanwhile I'm hitting small ships like Eagles and Vipers with most of my Plasmas at once...

Insta kill on most small ships... And some mediums too...

[Holeypaladin]

Originally posted by ждун:

Huh? Python MK2 equipped with 4x pacifiers (what weapons are cooler?) is the deadliest ship you can get. Almost 400 sustained dps. Convergence is no problem at all with this build and you can kill anything in a matter of seconds.

https://edsy.org/s/vAduQw6

https://youtu.be/ODSgzbHJz2w

I have already blown away elite ships with a single salve from the pacifiers.

PMK2 is not an FDL and it has to be flown differently. It is designed to be close range brawler. Fly it like a big vulture. Use frags and pacifiers, not MC's, no PAs or something. Engage from close range (<500m) and stick close. Don't allow them to gain distance and lure you into face tanking.

A build like this only works if you use the Python mk II against Anaconda and larger sized ships which are too slow to put any distance between the two of you. As far as the video goes, you're not really fighting things, just ganking passive targets, which isn't viable for actual combat.

In an actual fight against a hostile target (rather than a surprise attack like in the video), it's nearly impossible get within 500m of a combat ship with any kind of agility at all, much less stay that close... they just boost away immediately. And definitely can't use frags against FDLs, Vultures, and Vipers... at most, only like 20-40% of the projectiles will hit the target, and that's assuming you're above or below, rather than in front of or behind the target.

Hardpoints are incredibly spred out. I tried the Pacifier build, and it was completely non-viable against elite FDLs... which are the only NPC ships that matter.

"Skill issue" or not, I have a much, it's much, much easier to blow up an elite FDL with another FDL. Which means that the FDL is simply a much better combat ship, due to its vastly superior hardpoint convergence.

Originally posted by funkynutz:

Meanwhile I'm hitting small ships like Eagles and Vipers with most of my Plasmas at once...

Insta kill on most small ships... And some mediums too...

Yeah, I disbelieve. Because I tried this too, and the hardpoints are simply too far spread to land more than one or two... if you aim for center mass, every single plasma will miss a viper that is facing you, so you purposefully have to aim to miss in order to land one or two.

[Un1k0rn]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Originally posted by ждун:

Huh? Python MK2 equipped with 4x pacifiers (what weapons are cooler?) is the deadliest ship you can get. Almost 400 sustained dps. Convergence is no problem at all with this build and you can kill anything in a matter of seconds.

https://edsy.org/s/vAduQw6

https://youtu.be/ODSgzbHJz2w

I have already blown away elite ships with a single salve from the pacifiers.

PMK2 is not an FDL and it has to be flown differently. It is designed to be close range brawler. Fly it like a big vulture. Use frags and pacifiers, not MC's, no PAs or something. Engage from close range (<500m) and stick close. Don't allow them to gain distance and lure you into face tanking.

A build like this only works if you use the Python mk II against Anaconda and larger sized ships which are too slow to put any distance between the two of you. As far as the video goes, you're not really fighting things, just ganking passive targets, which isn't viable for actual combat.

In an actual fight against a hostile target (rather than a surprise attack like in the video), it's nearly impossible get within 500m of a combat ship with any kind of agility at all, much less stay that close... they just boost away immediately. And definitely can't use frags against FDLs, Vultures, and Vipers... at most, only like 20-40% of the projectiles will hit the target, and that's assuming you're above or below, rather than in front of or behind the target.

Hardpoints are incredibly spred out. I tried the Pacifier build, and it was completely non-viable against elite FDLs... which are the only NPC ships that matter.

"Skill issue" or not, I have a much, it's much, much easier to blow up an elite FDL with another FDL. Which means that the FDL is simply a much better combat ship, due to its vastly superior hardpoint convergence.

Originally posted by funkynutz:

Meanwhile I'm hitting small ships like Eagles and Vipers with most of my Plasmas at once...

Insta kill on most small ships... And some mediums too...

Yeah, I disbelieve. Because I tried this too, and the hardpoints are simply too far spread to land more than one or two... if your aim is dead on, every single plasma will miss a viper that is facing you, so you purposefully have to aim to miss in order to land one or two.

Have you considered putting one side's hardpoints on one trigger, and the others on another?

These are ships, not fighter planes. You don't have to fire all guns at once.

You're no longer purposely missing then, and instead just firing from the side that has a line of fire. This is in fact exactly how I used railguns on a Cobra Mk III, where the smalls are hideously spread apart. It has the added bonus of using less power per salvo, too.

[Holeypaladin]

Originally posted by Un1k0rn:

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

A build like this only works if you use the Python mk II against Anaconda and larger sized ships which are too slow to put any distance between the two of you. As far as the video goes, you're not really fighting things, just ganking passive targets, which isn't viable for actual combat.

In an actual fight against a hostile target (rather than a surprise attack like in the video), it's nearly impossible get within 500m of a combat ship with any kind of agility at all, much less stay that close... they just boost away immediately. And definitely can't use frags against FDLs, Vultures, and Vipers... at most, only like 20-40% of the projectiles will hit the target, and that's assuming you're above or below, rather than in front of or behind the target.

Hardpoints are incredibly spred out. I tried the Pacifier build, and it was completely non-viable against elite FDLs... which are the only NPC ships that matter.

"Skill issue" or not, I have a much, it's much, much easier to blow up an elite FDL with another FDL. Which means that the FDL is simply a much better combat ship, due to its vastly superior hardpoint convergence.



Yeah, I disbelieve. Because I tried this too, and the hardpoints are simply too far spread to land more than one or two... if your aim is dead on, every single plasma will miss a viper that is facing you, so you purposefully have to aim to miss in order to land one or two.

Have you considered putting one side's hardpoints on one trigger, and the others on another?

These are ships, not fighter planes. You don't have to fire all guns at once.

You're no longer purposely missing then, and instead just firing from the side that has a line of fire. This is in fact exactly how I used railguns on a Cobra Mk III, where the smalls are hideously spread apart. It has the added bonus of using less power per salvo, too.

I had the large hardpoints on one trigger, and the mediums on another, but both are too far apart from each other.

Having two triggers for two separate railguns on a Cobra does not make for a fun fight, as you have to re-aim for every single shot and only do half as much damage per trigger pull as when you aim center mass for a single shot. This is the main advantage that the Viper has over the Cobra, in fact... all of its hardpoints are so close together that you can aim center mass, and hit with all four guns, against any ship in the game.

The FDL is also similar in this regard. While my build has two triggers, it's still a center mass aim for both triggers, and all four of its medium hardpoints can hit a Viper with reasonable accuracy. It's important for a good combat ship to be able to destroy agile Vipers as well as huge Anacondas, without having to rely on surprise attacks at point blank range, since there are times where you are the one being attacked.

[Sighman]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

The FDL is also similar in this regard. While my build has two triggers, it's still a center mass aim for both triggers, and all four of its medium hardpoints can hit a Viper with reasonable accuracy. It's important for a good combat ship to be able to destroy agile Vipers as well as huge Anacondas, without having to rely on surprise attacks at point blank range, since there are times where you are the one being attacked.

I shall have to record some footage in a RES I think. I do use boost-turn, throttle movements and occasionally FA Off to flip around fast so that I'm not just jousting with smaller ships.

[ждун]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

A build like this only works if you use the Python mk II against Anaconda and larger sized ships which are too slow to put any distance between the two of you. As far as the video goes, you're not really fighting things, just ganking passive targets, which isn't viable for actual combat.

LoL. This is regular hazres bounty hunting, where I am attacking anything that is WANTED.
Perhaps you were never doing it, I don't know, but in Hazres typically its you who attacks first. If you consider that "not really fighting" I wonder what would be "actual combat" for you. It looks like ganking just because they are killed too fast before they really can react, but they are not passive, there are no "passive" NPC pirates in hazres, they actually do try to fight back, but they simply have no chance to survive long enough.

The Python MK2 build like I have suggested is not only the deadliest build it is also one of the fastest. It can spam boost at 567 m/s. There is no any NPC that can get away from me. NPCs reach 450 at most.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

In an actual fight against a hostile target (rather than a surprise attack like in the video), it's nearly impossible get within 500m of a combat ship with any kind of agility at all,
much less stay that close... they just boost away immediately.

Sorry that is not true. This python build is a lightweight build optimized for speed and maneuverability, it is supposed to be flown always with 4 pips to engines, it is a lot faster than any NPC and it can easily outmaneuver any NPC including elite Vultures, Vipers, Eagles, FDL's anything. It is very simple with it to stick close and not allow them to gain distance.

Also if you were attentive you would have noticed that it applies drag debuff with on of its frags. This cripples their engines and makes them pretty much a sitting duck and making their boost almost useless. Even if they boost, I can boost as well, but usually I don't even need that because I am faster without the boost then them with boost and I have no problem sticking on their tails even when they boost.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

And definitely can't use frags against FDLs, Vultures, and Vipers... at most, only like 20-40% of the projectiles will hit the target, and that's assuming you're above or below, rather than in front of or behind the target.

I can land 100% of projectiles from the pacifiers on anything, including Vultures and Vipers. This is a matter of distance and skill. The trick is here using lateral thrusters to strafe in proper position. Small ships are instant kills anyway.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Hardpoints are incredibly spred out. I tried the Pacifier build, and it was completely non-viable against elite FDLs... which are the only NPC ships that matter.

Elite FDLs are easy as well, I can kill them without giving them even a chance to fire a single round at me. FDLs will spam-boost, but with drag applied their boost is a joke and I can spam boost as well.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

"Skill issue" or not, I have a much, it's much, much easier to blow up an elite FDL with another FDL. Which means that the FDL is simply a much better combat ship, due to its vastly superior hardpoint convergence.

Your problem is, that you are used to FDL and youre trying to fly the python like you are used to fly FDL. As I already said in my first post, THIS WON'T WORK. Python2 will suck if you fly it like FDL.

You must fly it, completely differently, more like vulture. Very close range (no more than 500m, better 100m), sticking on tails, not allowing the enemies to gain distance. If you fly it properly it is much more deadly than FDL can be. It has almost twice of fire power, but only at very close range.

The typical FDL builds with Plasmas you usually fight from much longer distance, and thats why convergence matters there. For very close range combat with pacifiers, it doesn't matter so much.

Originally posted by funkynutz:

Meanwhile I'm hitting small ships like Eagles and Vipers with most of my Plasmas at once...

Insta kill on most small ships... And some mediums too...

PMK2 is not the best platform for plasmas, convergence is one problem, and the other problem is its weak distributor and heat dissipation characteristics. If you prefer plasmas, better use FDL really. Python MK2 is best platform for a close range frag build.

[Holeypaladin]

Originally posted by ждун:

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

A build like this only works if you use the Python mk II against Anaconda and larger sized ships which are too slow to put any distance between the two of you. As far as the video goes, you're not really fighting things, just ganking passive targets, which isn't viable for actual combat.

LoL. This is regular hazres bounty hunting, where I am attacking anything that is WANTED.
Perhaps you were never doing it, I don't know, but in Hazres typically its you who attacks first. If you consider that "not really fighting" I wonder what would be "actual combat" for you. It looks like ganking just because they are killed too fast before they really can react, but they are not passive, there are no "passive" NPC pirates in hazres, they actually do try to fight back, but they simply have no chance to survive long enough.

The Python MK2 build like I have suggested is not only the deadliest build it is also one of the fastest. It can spam boost at 567 m/s. There is no any NPC that can get away from me. NPCs reach 450 at most.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

In an actual fight against a hostile target (rather than a surprise attack like in the video), it's nearly impossible get within 500m of a combat ship with any kind of agility at all,
much less stay that close... they just boost away immediately.

Sorry that is not true. This python build is a lightweight build optimized for speed and maneuverability, it is supposed to be flown always with 4 pips to engines, it is a lot faster than any NPC and it can easily outmaneuver any NPC including elite Vultures, Vipers, Eagles, FDL's anything. It is very simple with it to stick close and not allow them to gain distance.

Also if you were attentive you would have noticed that it applies drag debuff with on of its frags. This cripples their engines and makes them pretty much a sitting duck and making their boost almost useless. Even if they boost, I can boost as well, but usually I don't even need that because I am faster without the boost then them with boost and I have no problem sticking on their tails even when they boost.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

And definitely can't use frags against FDLs, Vultures, and Vipers... at most, only like 20-40% of the projectiles will hit the target, and that's assuming you're above or below, rather than in front of or behind the target.

I can land 100% of projectiles from the pacifiers on anything, including Vultures and Vipers. This is a matter of distance and skill. The trick is here using lateral thrusters to strafe in proper position. Small ships are instant kills anyway.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Hardpoints are incredibly spred out. I tried the Pacifier build, and it was completely non-viable against elite FDLs... which are the only NPC ships that matter.

Elite FDLs are easy as well, I can kill them without giving them even a chance to fire a single round at me. FDLs will spam-boost, but with drag applied their boost is a joke and I can spam boost as well.

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

"Skill issue" or not, I have a much, it's much, much easier to blow up an elite FDL with another FDL. Which means that the FDL is simply a much better combat ship, due to its vastly superior hardpoint convergence.

Your problem is, that you are used to FDL and youre trying to fly the python like you are used to fly FDL. As I already said in my first post, THIS WON'T WORK. Python2 will suck if you fly it like FDL.

You must fly it, completely differently, more like vulture. Very close range (no more than 500m, better 100m), sticking on tails, not allowing the enemies to gain distance. If you fly it properly it is much more deadly than FDL can be. It has almost twice of fire power, but only at very close range.

The typical FDL builds with Plasmas you usually fight from much longer distance, and thats why convergence matters there. For very close range combat with pacifiers, it doesn't matter so much.

Originally posted by funkynutz:

Meanwhile I'm hitting small ships like Eagles and Vipers with most of my Plasmas at once...

Insta kill on most small ships... And some mediums too...

PMK2 is not the best platform for plasmas, convergence is one problem, and the other problem is its weak distributor and heat dissipation characteristics. If you prefer plasmas, better use FDL really. Python MK2 is best platform for a close range frag build.

I've tried hazres bounty hunting, but it's not my thing. I mean, it looks like you have a very good build optimized for ambush hunting hazres sites... but when I tried them, they paid garbage, and simply worth it when compared to my usual bounty hunting missions.

I've tried drag munitions on frags, but for some reason, enemies manage to boost anyway, so I always wondered if it was bugged. Well, it appears to be working for you, at least, just not very well for me.

The type of combat I optimize for are solo fights against the strongest NPC ships in the game, which are the Spec Ops ships (especially the FDL and Python, but also the Vulture) that appear in medium and high intensity CZs, and the Elite FDLs that spawn as mission objectives for wing Assassinate missions. Have you tried your ambush build against them? They've got G5 dirty drag drives, so they're very fast and agile, and well... I don't have the skill to stay close to them. Simply being as fast as them isn't enough, as they'll boost past me and turn to face me as fast as I can turn about myself. And I'll never be able to micromanage pips like a computer can.

Plasma builds are much, much easier for me, since I can shoot at over a thousand meters rather than having to get within five hundred, which is why the FDL and FGS are much better ships for me, and why the hardpoint convergence of the Python mk II is so terrible for me.

No way could I fly with four pips to engines... I need the distributor and shield power, because these ships hit very hard, with near perfect accuracy. But plasmas basically need four pips to weapons anyway... the efficient APA Python II that I tested would still run out of weapons power with four pips, as does my FDL.

[Un1k0rn]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

Originally posted by Un1k0rn:

Have you considered putting one side's hardpoints on one trigger, and the others on another?

These are ships, not fighter planes. You don't have to fire all guns at once.

You're no longer purposely missing then, and instead just firing from the side that has a line of fire. This is in fact exactly how I used railguns on a Cobra Mk III, where the smalls are hideously spread apart. It has the added bonus of using less power per salvo, too.

I had the large hardpoints on one trigger, and the mediums on another, but both are too far apart from each other.

Having two triggers for two separate railguns on a Cobra does not make for a fun fight, as you have to re-aim for every single shot and only do half as much damage per trigger pull as when you aim center mass for a single shot. This is the main advantage that the Viper has over the Cobra, in fact... all of its hardpoints are so close together that you can aim center mass, and hit with all four guns, against any ship in the game.

The FDL is also similar in this regard. While my build has two triggers, it's still a center mass aim for both triggers, and all four of its medium hardpoints can hit a Viper with reasonable accuracy. It's important for a good combat ship to be able to destroy agile Vipers as well as huge Anacondas, without having to rely on surprise attacks at point blank range, since there are times where you are the one being attacked.

Who said anything about re-aiming?

It's a reactionary thing. Use the railgun that's actually on target in the given moment and focus attention on that one until it fires.

Secondly: Fun is subjective. I thoroughly enjoyed that setup, personally, so speak for yourself thank you very much. The only reason I no longer use it is because I generally find the Cobra Mk IV to be the better ship for my style. Yes, I am weird.

And you seem to be missing the point with your Python here.

Forget the larges on one trigger and the mediums on the other.

Try putting the port side on one and the starboard on the other. Ignore the sizes for a moment. Yes, it means that it won't deliver as much damage as firing all at once, but it won't do that anyway if it can't land all shots at once.

But if you can't break yourself from needing symmetry, well I'm afraid I can't help you there. That's all I can say on that without breaking politeness.

And just in case you try to be clever with a response: No, I sincerely doubt I could possibly beat your Python Mk II in a PvP fight with my Cobra. I'm humble like that.

Honestly though I agree with the guy with the Cyrillic name. Your best bet is probably to stick with an FDL. Sounds like it's more your style.

[Sighman]

Brother Sabathius is streaming right now using the Python Mk II with frags in a Haz RES

https://www.twitch.tv/brother_sabathius

[St0rmFury]

To those who shared your P2 pacifier builds, may I know why high cap or double shot over overcharged?

[Sighman]

Originally posted by St0rmFury:

To those who shared your P2 pacifier builds, may I know why high cap or double shot over overcharged?

I just prefer double shot. I always ignore DPS figures (who knows if they're accurate or updated?) and just go with that is more fun to me.

[Un1k0rn]

Originally posted by Sighman:

Originally posted by St0rmFury:

To those who shared your P2 pacifier builds, may I know why high cap or double shot over overcharged?

I just prefer double shot. I always ignore DPS figures (who knows if they're accurate or updated?) and just go with that is more fun to me.

How dare you not pursue the meta. Everyone knows that's the only correct way to have fun.