It od worth to but Odyssey DLC right now?

[Grapcioo]

It's already on sale and I Heard that they're finally fixed this DLC, but it is worth this money?

[Alrik]

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Main problem with Odyssey was always with performance. Its improved somewhat but still a bit of an issue, depending on your rig and graphics settings.

No, performance was not the main problem.
The bad performance becomes less a problem while hardware advances and players upgrade to newer and better hardware.

The main problem of Odyssey is IMHO the game design build uppon grind, and the general "cheap" feeling attached to some design choices.

Odysseys on foot combat uses the same resistance mechanics as ship/srv combat.
Lasers are good against shields, kinetics are good against space suits/hulls.
Space ships have 2 fire groups/buttons and can fire both types of weapons at the same time or switch fast between weapon groups.
Frontier could adopt that by making the Odyssey weapons like the ships: players can mount more than one damage type and use 2 firing buttons or a fast switch between those.
You know, stuff like an laser assault rifle with underbarrel shootgun to combine laser/kinetic damage in one weapon.

Instead Frontier desingend the first person combat in a way that forces players to switch between weapons, playing everytime the stock/draw animation and giving the enemy target more time to go for cover.
And that is intentional to force the players to get the "Faster Handling" mod for each weapon.

Elite Dangerous ship outfit and modding allows the player to try out different builds with only using money as ressource and with engineering as final layer on top.
Still players complained that the material collection and engineer unlock needed for engineering is too much grind.
So Frontier decided to make material collection and engineer unlock the only way in Odyssey to outfit, because why not build the game desing upon a mechanic that many players hated and complained before?

First players can't realy outfit a handheld weapon or suit in Odyssey.
The can upgrade it, an each upgrade improves the stats without any negative effects (like more power draw or more heat production) that make the outfitting of ships interessing and deep.
Players simply have to grind materials to upgrade the weapons/suits and it's the same type of materials for each grade, just more of that.
Prominent are manufacturing instructions needed for upgrading all suits & weapons.
To upgrade a grade one suit to grade 5 a player needs to collect 51 manufacturing instructions, while missions only give 1 -5 of them.
Players may buy suits up to grade 3 (if lucky to find them), and with that they need only 45 manufacturing instructions, so a little more than 10% less grind!

Upgrading suits & weapons unlocks modification slots that allow players to modify their weapons.
Modifications are such awesome stuff like... bigger magazines, a better scops, or nightvision on a space suit in a game that has pitch black planetary surfaces depending on the suns position. You know, stuff that can be buyed im most games in a store or comes as customisation option right from the beginning.
But players can't do that modification by them self, they need an engineer to do it, and those engineers must be unlocked by... grinding materials and data.
To make it even more grindy "the best mods" like night vision can be only unlocked by unlocking 2 other engineers first.
And if you still think that is all not bad enough: mods can't be removed from a suit/weapon. So if you find out that this mod isn't the right thing for you - well no chance to remove it, just go for the whole upgrade and modding grind with an other weapon/suit.

And to make the grind even worse: only a part of the materials needed to upgrade & mod can be traded in for other materials.
Also the game doesn't have a GUI for the player to track the materials the need, so players are forced to use a 3rd party tool.

So the grind is one of the main problems of Odyssey and it's not fixed at all.
The second thing is the cheap feeling of some design choices.
For example: each of the 13 engineers for handheld weapons & space suits uses the identical base. It's a one room mini on foot level without windows, and that reason for that is clear: it's cheaper to build only one level instead multiple.
This on foot level is so small that it doesn't have a bartender to trade materials or a weapon & suit shop to upgrade, so players need to have all upgrades done and materials ready before visiting the engineer.
And by that way Frontier can afford to add 13 engineers to the game offering boring mods to the player, instead just 6 engineers with unique bases. Because more for cheap is better.
Ship engineers didn't get even that, they have a broom closet next to the ship hangar there they wait for the players.
Ship engineer bases didn't even get an on foot level with shops & bar, and that's a shame because that bases were hand build for the Horizions DLC and offer unique view. But i get it, it's cheaper to no pay a dev to place the tower with the on foot level by hand.

Also players just spawn in a blue circle below their ship if the leave their ship.
That's cheaper than putting an airlock room inside the ships hull and spawn the player in it, so that the player can leave the ship on foot.
Using a black screen and audio of footsteps to "let the players hear how they walk outside the ship" is much cheaper!

And there are some minior things that made Odyssey look like be done by a cheap external contractor, like the lack of on foot stuff on locations like the Guardian & Thargoid sites from the Horizions DLC or the gunsights of the handheld weapons that use grey dot instead the red or green dots holographic gunsights use in real world and every shooter game set in a modern/futuristic setting.

[Sighman]

Originally posted by Alrik:

Frontier could adopt that by making the Odyssey weapons like the ships: players can mount more than one damage type and use 2 firing buttons or a fast switch between those.
You know, stuff like an laser assault rifle with underbarrel shootgun to combine laser/kinetic damage in one weapon.

Or they could add a weapon type to the game which does both kinds of damage in one.

They could make it fire something like, I don't know, plasma.

Imagine if there was a plasma shotgun for one- or two-shot close range kills, a pistol which turned out to be the most OP weapon in the game, an assault rifle that mowed down enemies when upgraded, and even a sniper that could one-shot any NPC from the other side of the settlement.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by Alrik:

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

Main problem with Odyssey was always with performance. Its improved somewhat but still a bit of an issue, depending on your rig and graphics settings.

No, performance was not the main problem.
The bad performance becomes less a problem while hardware advances and players upgrade to newer and better hardware.

The main problem of Odyssey is IMHO the game design build uppon grind, and the general "cheap" feeling attached to some design choices.

Odysseys on foot combat uses the same resistance mechanics as ship/srv combat.
Lasers are good against shields, kinetics are good against space suits/hulls.
Space ships have 2 fire groups/buttons and can fire both types of weapons at the same time or switch fast between weapon groups.
Frontier could adopt that by making the Odyssey weapons like the ships: players can mount more than one damage type and use 2 firing buttons or a fast switch between those.
You know, stuff like an laser assault rifle with underbarrel shootgun to combine laser/kinetic damage in one weapon.

Instead Frontier desingend the first person combat in a way that forces players to switch between weapons, playing everytime the stock/draw animation and giving the enemy target more time to go for cover.
And that is intentional to force the players to get the "Faster Handling" mod for each weapon.

Elite Dangerous ship outfit and modding allows the player to try out different builds with only using money as ressource and with engineering as final layer on top.
Still players complained that the material collection and engineer unlock needed for engineering is too much grind.
So Frontier decided to make material collection and engineer unlock the only way in Odyssey to outfit, because why not build the game desing upon a mechanic that many players hated and complained before?

First players can't realy outfit a handheld weapon or suit in Odyssey.
The can upgrade it, an each upgrade improves the stats without any negative effects (like more power draw or more heat production) that make the outfitting of ships interessing and deep.
Players simply have to grind materials to upgrade the weapons/suits and it's the same type of materials for each grade, just more of that.
Prominent are manufacturing instructions needed for upgrading all suits & weapons.
To upgrade a grade one suit to grade 5 a player needs to collect 51 manufacturing instructions, while missions only give 1 -5 of them.
Players may buy suits up to grade 3 (if lucky to find them), and with that they need only 45 manufacturing instructions, so a little more than 10% less grind!

Upgrading suits & weapons unlocks modification slots that allow players to modify their weapons.
Modifications are such awesome stuff like... bigger magazines, a better scops, or nightvision on a space suit in a game that has pitch black planetary surfaces depending on the suns position. You know, stuff that can be buyed im most games in a store or comes as customisation option right from the beginning.
But players can't do that modification by them self, they need an engineer to do it, and those engineers must be unlocked by... grinding materials and data.
To make it even more grindy "the best mods" like night vision can be only unlocked by unlocking 2 other engineers first.
And if you still think that is all not bad enough: mods can't be removed from a suit/weapon. So if you find out that this mod isn't the right thing for you - well no chance to remove it, just go for the whole upgrade and modding grind with an other weapon/suit.

And to make the grind even worse: only a part of the materials needed to upgrade & mod can be traded in for other materials.
Also the game doesn't have a GUI for the player to track the materials the need, so players are forced to use a 3rd party tool.

So the grind is one of the main problems of Odyssey and it's not fixed at all.
The second thing is the cheap feeling of some design choices.
For example: each of the 13 engineers for handheld weapons & space suits uses the identical base. It's a one room mini on foot level without windows, and that reason for that is clear: it's cheaper to build only one level instead multiple.
This on foot level is so small that it doesn't have a bartender to trade materials or a weapon & suit shop to upgrade, so players need to have all upgrades done and materials ready before visiting the engineer.
And by that way Frontier can afford to add 13 engineers to the game offering boring mods to the player, instead just 6 engineers with unique bases. Because more for cheap is better.
Ship engineers didn't get even that, they have a broom closet next to the ship hangar there they wait for the players.
Ship engineer bases didn't even get an on foot level with shops & bar, and that's a shame because that bases were hand build for the Horizions DLC and offer unique view. But i get it, it's cheaper to no pay a dev to place the tower with the on foot level by hand.

Also players just spawn in a blue circle below their ship if the leave their ship.
That's cheaper than putting an airlock room inside the ships hull and spawn the player in it, so that the player can leave the ship on foot.
Using a black screen and audio of footsteps to "let the players hear how they walk outside the ship" is much cheaper!

And there are some minior things that made Odyssey look like be done by a cheap external contractor, like the lack of on foot stuff on locations like the Guardian & Thargoid sites from the Horizions DLC or the gunsights of the handheld weapons that use grey dot instead the red or green dots holographic gunsights use in real world and every shooter game set in a modern/futuristic setting.

Nah, i'm standing by my point, because if the game runs so bad you can't even experience the gameplay, then you can't even be critical of the gameplay in the first place.

I do have my issues with Odyssey's features and gameplay, but it has added a lot of stuff that I do enjoy as well.

My main wish is they hadn't taken a step back with materials trading. They added materials/data traders for all ship based engineering, then released Odyssey with only partial trading. That was a massive faceplam from my side.

Regarding the black screen to/from cockpit, i'm quite fine with that. After running through my ship several times in Starfield, i stopped doing it and changed to using the teleport to seat. At the end of the day, i just want to get on with doing what i'm doing. In the bigger ships, you'd spend quite some time running from the entrance to the cockpit.

Would it be nice if they added full ship interiors? Perhaps, but it would be a novelty for me, one that would wear off quickly after the first few times.

The fade to black transition though, i don't think you'll ever get a seamless transition like you do in Star Citizen. Sometimes there are good reasons to take the quick and easy route, and that's because the "better" route will add a ton of complications to your code, and as we've seen with Star Citizen, it opens up a ton of issues for their development team, and why people randomly die due to stairs and elevators and whatnot.

The clever way for FD to do ship interiors would be to have the interiors disconnected from the outside, so then its just a separate map inside the ship, with windows being viewports into the external environment, but for that, you're keeping the fade to black transition anyway.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by Sighman:

Originally posted by Alrik:

Frontier could adopt that by making the Odyssey weapons like the ships: players can mount more than one damage type and use 2 firing buttons or a fast switch between those.
You know, stuff like an laser assault rifle with underbarrel shootgun to combine laser/kinetic damage in one weapon.

Or they could add a weapon type to the game which does both kinds of damage in one.

They could make it fire something like, I don't know, plasma.

Imagine if there was a plasma shotgun for one- or two-shot close range kills, a pistol which turned out to be the most OP weapon in the game, an assault rifle that mowed down enemies when upgraded, and even a sniper that could one-shot any NPC from the other side of the settlement.

I have a dominator loadout with the the shotgun, sniper, and pistol plasma weapons. Its a fun layout. My favourite though is my double rocket launcher loadout. That's just so much fun.

[Alrik]

Originally posted by Sighman:

Or they could add a weapon type to the game which does both kinds of damage in one.

They could make it fire something like, I don't know, plasma.

Imagine if there was a plasma shotgun for one- or two-shot close range kills, a pistol which turned out to be the most OP weapon in the game, an assault rifle that mowed down enemies when upgraded, and even a sniper that could one-shot any NPC from the other side of the settlement.

Yes, OP weapons that kill with one or two shoots to the body - no skill needed like headshoots - are a prime example of good game design.

The sniper rifle is a good example: yes you can one shoot a NPC from the other side of the settlement, but only if the NPC doesn't move after the shoot was fired and take seconds to hit.
One shooting an immobile target is possible in other games too, usually a headshoot is needed for that. Odyssey doesn't need that skill.

Imagine the projectile would be faster, the base damage lower so that players actually would need the skill to land an headshoot.

[Alrik]

Originally posted by Agony_Aunt:

My main wish is they hadn't taken a step back with materials trading. They added materials/data traders for all ship based engineering, then released Odyssey with only partial trading. That was a massive faceplam from my side.

Being able to trade all materials as in Horizions would have reduced the grind. That was obvious not a design goal for Odyssey.

Stuff like Manufacturing Instructions designed to be hard to get to keep the player engaged.
Not being able to remove a mod from a suit/gun is designed to keep the players engaged with doing the whole process over and over again if they want to try out different things.

Frontier also didn't add the "pin blueprint" function from Horizion to Odyssey, so players have to use pen & paper to track the materials they need (unless using 3rd party tools).

All that is either incompetence by the main game designer, the quality control and the upper leadership of Frontier - or intentional.
And I'm not going to think Frontier is incompetent. The whole Odyssey DLC was build with the most possible grind in mind.
And that after many players complained about the grind in Horizions.
Also one of the big positive aspects of Elite Dangerous was the ship outfitting that allows a lot of "try around & find out" even before engineering was added.

So tell me, why did Frontier get rid of one of the best aspects of the base game (outfitting with pros & cons) and went to the most critizised part of Horizions (engineering & material grind) if not intentional?

Regarding the black screen to/from cockpit, i'm quite fine with that. After running through my ship several times in Starfield, i stopped doing it and changed to using the teleport to seat. At the end of the day, i just want to get on with doing what i'm doing. In the bigger ships, you'd spend quite some time running from the entrance to the cockpit.

Would it be nice if they added full ship interiors? Perhaps, but it would be a novelty for me, one that would wear off quickly after the first few times.

I didn't mean full ship interiors.
I mean a simple airlock in the ship like Frontier is using it for the SRV or the ship launched fighters.
Imagine they have the same long blackscreen with footsteps played while "the player" walks to the SRV of fighter hangar.
Also take a stop watch and take the time used for that blackscreen...

[ΔΙΑΚΟΣΙΑ]

Originally posted by Alrik:

The sniper rifle is a good example: yes you can one shoot a NPC from the other side of the settlement, but only if the NPC doesn't move after the shoot was fired and take seconds to hit.

So plan your shot. Employ patterning like a real sniper.
If they're moving after you shoot, that's your fault.
Or use real skill and lead your shot without a computer calculating it for you.
It requires different skills, but it still requires skill.

Originally posted by Alrik:

One shooting an immobile target is possible in other games too, usually a headshoot is needed for that. Odyssey doesn't need that skill.

You've never faced enforcers, have you.
You have to headshot them. Grade 3 and above can survive a body shot from a grade 5 Executioner. If you miss the headshot, you then get rockets flying at you.

[Sighman]

Originally posted by ΔΙΑΚΟΣΙΑ:

Originally posted by Alrik:

The sniper rifle is a good example: yes you can one shoot a NPC from the other side of the settlement, but only if the NPC doesn't move after the shoot was fired and take seconds to hit.

So plan your shot. Employ patterning like a real sniper.
If they're moving after you shoot, that's your fault.
Or use real skill and lead your shot without a computer calculating it for you.
It requires different skills, but it still requires skill.

Exactly. All NPCs pause for a certain time during their rounds, unless you've alerted them.

If you wait until they pause, you have enough time to snipe them. If you wait too long they're going to move before the shot lands.

And be thankful the sniper shot isn't faster, because it's hard enough avoiding sharpshooters now. Imagine dying in a split second every time you set foot on a settlement.

[Alrik]

Originally posted by Sighman:

Exactly. All NPCs pause for a certain time during their rounds, unless you've alerted them.

If you wait until they pause, you have enough time to snipe them. If you wait too long they're going to move before the shot lands.

Exactly that way work sniping in other games with faster bullets too.
But usually it takes a headshoot to kill a target what doesn't move. In most of these games players can also kill moving targets with the sniper, just with more shoots to the body.

Killing an immobile NPC with one body shoot isn't that of a challenge, i have it done in Odyssey more than enough to find it boring.
The plasma sniper is op against immoblie, unsuspecting targets, and it is nerfed to being almost useless against moving targets.
IMHO thats just lazy balance.

Is it too much to make it less op against immobile targets by reducing base damage and a little bit better against moving targets by increasing the projectile speed?

And there is also the topic of the gunsights... with grey dots, that have low contrast on the target, and most sight missing any kind of indicators for leading the aim against moving targets.
You know, that little dots most sniper scopes have left and right from the center dot in other games?

But i guess there is some good reason why the gunsights are terrible in Odyssey... maybe because bot are to good with their goodlike perception or something....

And be thankful the sniper shot isn't faster, because it's hard enough avoiding sharpshooters now. Imagine dying in a split second every time you set foot on a settlement.

Yeah, i wonder how other games with faster projectile speeds handle that problem.

Maybe with the need for a Headshoot for an one shot kill?
Or maybe by don't using an NPC AI that is always 100% accurate and doesn't have god like omniperception?
Oh wait, thats excatly the way other devs handle that...

[Holeypaladin]

In my opinion, the rocket launcher is too powerful. Yes, it's supposed to be OP. But a G3 rocket launcher shouldn't be one-shotting a four-chevron Enforcer in high-intensity GCZs. It should be one-shotting the three-chevron enforcers in medium intensity GCZs.

The G5 rocket launcher's damage should be nerfed to that of the G3, basically.

[Agony_Aunt]

Originally posted by Holeypaladin:

In my opinion, the rocket launcher is too powerful. Yes, it's supposed to be OP. But a G3 rocket launcher shouldn't be one-shotting a four-chevron Enforcer in high-intensity GCZs. It should be one-shotting the three-chevron enforcers in medium intensity GCZs.

The G5 rocket launcher's damage should be nerfed to that of the G3, basically.

It can't one shot anything. The only weapon that can one-shot anything is the shotgun at point blank range, because each pellet counts separately for damage. No matter how much damage you do with a single shot you can't penetrate past shield damage and do health damage.

Let's say a soldier has 100 shield and 100 health.

Even if you do 10000000 damage with a single shot, all that would happen is the target loses their shield. Then on the second shot you can do health damage.

[funkynutz]

Originally posted by Alrik:

I didn't mean full ship interiors.
I mean a simple airlock in the ship like Frontier is using it for the SRV or the ship launched fighters.
Imagine they have the same long blackscreen with footsteps played while "the player" walks to the SRV of fighter hangar.
Also take a stop watch and take the time used for that blackscreen...

Long? No. Less than a second, usually.

It's not enough time to get up out of the chair, nevermind walk through a ship...

Probably takes longer if you've got the game installed on HDD, or a slow network connection...

[DYSEQTA]

@Alrick I don't think I agree with a single word you've said in this thread, and you've said a lot of them. All I get from your prose is that you have completely misunderstood what Elite Dangerous is and what FDev's goals were for Odyssey.

Odyssey is not an FPS module for Elite. It's not meant to be anything like <insert favourite FPS here>. It is a module that allows you to be your character completely instead of effectively being a ship as it was prior and that happens to include combat with personal weapons and so there are going to be some elements of that which are similar to other games you've played; similar, not the same. The combat is consistent with the rules of the game world that are already established and continues with Elite's rock/paper/scissors combat game design.

Elite as a whole is not a game in the traditional sense, it has more in common with a flight sim than anything else when considering its design goals. There is nothing "lazy" about their design of the combat and weapons for Odyssey; it is all well consdiered. Is it perfect? No. I find it frustrating that, considering the focus on stealth operations, you can't peek around corners or drag bodies into hiding for instance. However, all the complaints I see you making just suggest that you don't understand FDevs design goals. They achieved exactly what they set out to do and I for one very much enjoy the variety, atmosphere, and strategy-focused gameplay of the on-foot content.

Also IMHO it takes far more skill to be effective with an Executioner, especially if caught and under duress, than it does with any hitscan sniper rifle I've come across in traditional FPS games. Just saying.

But whatever, this is just like my opinion man.

[Alrik]

Originally posted by DYSEQTA:

@Alrick I don't think I agree with a single word you've said in this thread, and you've said a lot of them. All I get from your prose is that you have completely misunderstood what Elite Dangerous is and what FDev's goals were for Odyssey.

Odyssey is not an FPS module for Elite. It's not meant to be anything like <insert favourite FPS here>.

Odyssey is not an FPS modul, but the main focus of Frontiers marketing was the awesome "sphere of combat were ships, SRVs and commanders on foot meet"?
That's denial not far from those fans complaining that Odyssey is only an FPS and "no fan evar wanted Call of Duty (insert name of FPS you hate here) in Elite Dangerouse !!!!!11111eleven."

And I completely understood FDevs goals for Odyssey: a cheap produced DLC to make some money from the Elite Dangerouse fans desperate for "space legs", while the main focus of Frontiers was to produce games based on expensive licenses like Warhammer Age of Sigmar, Jurassic Park and Formula One.

Elite as a whole is not a game in the traditional sense, it has more in common with a flight sim than anything else when considering its design goals.

Flight sims is one of the oldes video games gerne, can't get less traditional than 1984s Elite or Microsoft Flight Simulator.
There are even first person shooters with a sim design: games like ARMA, Battlefield, Stalker, ect.
Usually those games use multiple hit locations, simulated bullet physics, a slower pace with body stance & movement affecting precision and a "realistic" outfitting system for guns.
Odysseys first person shooting part is nothing like that, it's more like the good old days of Unreal Tournament, Quake Arena or Doom.

And no, Odysseys design for suits and handguns doesn't fit in Elites game world or SciFi setting or rules.
Yes, "lasers against shields, kinetic against hulls" is a rule of Elite world.
Ships are adapted by that by being able to fire multiple weapons at once or switch fast between weapons.
It's hard to believe that manufacturers of handheld weapons in a world were personal shields exist ignore that and don't came up with ideas like a laser rifle with underbarrel shootgun.
It's even hard to belive that they would build a combat shotgun that has only 2 shots instead of a box magazin with more shots and go for an outdated design from the iconic doom games.
It's also hard to belive that anyone can buy a spaceships and all kind of guns for that at a space port, but the simple task of adding a better scope to a gun can only be done by 2 persons in the whole galaxy, and that anyone who wants a better scope needs to unlock 2 other specialists before by doing illegal stuff.
Unbelivable is also that space suits don't come with night vision from the factory in a world were space jockeys roam pitch black surfaces of planets and moons.
No, you can't explain all that stuff with "it's the rules of the game world", but you can explain it very well with "forcing the player to grind".

There is nothing "lazy" about their design of the combat and weapons for Odyssey; it is all well consdiered. Is it perfect?

It's well designed to maximize the grind.
Ship outfitting works without grind (except credits), Frontier removed outfitting completly for space suits and handguns.
Instead we get upgrading, based on material grind.
We get engineering, based on material grind to unlock engineers and material grind to install mods.
Even that players can't remove a mod is designed to increase the grind for materials.
If you don't like the word lazy: it takes less efford to design a game based on grind that a game based on other ways to keep the player engaged.

There is also objective bad design choices: like choosing gray as color for the holographic gunsights.

[funkynutz]

It's hard to believe that manufacturers of handheld weapons in a world were personal shields exist ignore that and don't came up with ideas like a laser rifle with underbarrel shootgun.
It's even hard to belive that they would build a combat shotgun that has only 2 shots instead of a box magazin with more shots and go for an outdated design from the iconic doom games.

What I find harder to believe is that the vast majority of humanity has apparently lost the ability to use their thumbs... What's that, you want to buy a scope for your rifle? That's going to cost a pile of random nonsense, it can only be fitted by an "engineer" (because anyone who isn't an engineer has obviously lost the use of their thumbs - give me a better reason?), and for some reason the engineers in the future are absolute frigging morons who are going to weld it to your gun...

EDIT: I see you covered that point (maybe not the thumbs) a bit further on... NVM...