Flightstick/Throttle and VR

[thecelt]

So I've only logged a few hours in game but I'm seriously considering buying the Logitech X52 Pro Flight Control System and a VR headset. I'm just not getting comfortable with the flight controls and the game pad and mouse and using VR and reprogramming all of the keybinding into a flight control system would seem like it would feel more intuitive.

I use the Logitech G13 game pad/keyboard and a mouse but It feels awkward trying to look around and still comfortably control the ship while doing whatever.

So i have two questions before i sink a lot of money into this.

First is does anyone else have a setup similar to mine with a keyboard config that is comfortable that they could communicate so i could try it?

Second is anyone else who has the VR/Flight stick set up I describe, any feedback of pros/cons you've had are very much appreciated.

Thank you all in advance for any help.

[Swans]

Hi, yes I have the x52 kit and the Rift. But I actually found my HOTAS was overkill for ED and reverted to using a XB1 gamepad, but I still use my x52 setup for simulators as I find it useful for their more complex flight and combat models.

For me, ED strikes a balance between arcade and sim that is more on the arcade side (which is fine as it makes the game accessible to more people and combat is still fun), and for that reason it seems more well suited to console controller than HOTAS. This is just my opinion of course and there are many people who love HOTAS in ED, but there’s nothing you can do with HOTAS you can’t do with controller and vice/versa.

In terms of pros and cons, I find the controller better because it’s smaller, is right in my hands with all the buttons at my fingertips which is useful when I am blind in VR, whereas with my x52 I found myself sometimes peering down the nose piece of my Rift to find a certain button on my throttle or stick, I am sure you would instinctively learn these positions in time though. Controller obviously takes up far less space than HOTAS.

The main benefit with HOTAS is immersion of using a stick, but I don’t find ED a particularly immersive game anyway because of the travel mechanics. What I usually do in travel is alt-tab to another app for 10 mins and keep one eye on the windowed game display.

All said and done, HOTAS vs gamepad is six of one half a dozen of the other and it comes down to personal preference because, as I say, at a technical level, either will do all you need.

[rfb]

The game plays so well with a gamepad I dont feel the need to use my flight stick, especially in VR. I might use the stick for microsoft flight sim 2020 next month.

[Pte.LuckyPhil.Anzacs 1st]

Hello I have played about 1700 hour all in VR rift then pimax 5k. I started with x52 then moved to the x56. there are so many keys in this game the x56 is better but at $400 AU it maybe too much for u to pay. The game is so good in VR you shoud look at the pimax 5k, 8k or 8kx. Pimaxvr.com good luck see u in the back

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by thecelt:

Second is anyone else who has the VR/Flight stick set up I describe, any feedback of pros/cons you've had are very much appreciated.

Thank you all in advance for any help.

I would advise against an X-52. Saitek's build quality is abysmal and they break within weeks. Since they got taken over by Logitech it's supposedly gotten better, but the problem is that when you order one you have no control over whether you get a newer Logitech era one or some of the Saitek backstock.

For the same price you can also get the thrustmaster t16000m HOTAS, which as far as I am aware most people would say is better and I agree. The low end Thrustmaster sticks have durability issues themselves, but they're not as bad as saitek.


Advantages to the 1600m over the Saitek is that the throttle is just better. It has more buttons and hats, it also has an analogue stick which the saitek doesn't (very useful for thrusters in games like this vs a hat) and it has a paddle axis which can be used for rudders/yaw which is immeasurably better than using the twist axis on a stick.

Advantages to the X52 over the 1600m is that the stick on the saitek is far better. Less buttons (technically) but they're much better laid out. It also has a pinky switch and a two stage trigger which is nice. There's also the advantage that the in game controls are modelled after the X52 but that's not that meaningful, especially if you're planning on playing other games.

[thecelt]

Thanks for the feedback. I ended up with the Logitech X52 instead of the Pro. I did consider the Thrust Master, thank you for the comparison, but the one i wanted wasn't available at the store.

For me it has completely changed how the game feels and plays. Getting off the mouse and G13 game pad for flight has been an absolute blessing. Flying feels like flying now and the controls feel much more intuitive. I'm still trying to retrain my brain to the new hand positions and key bindings but with just the in game pre-sets, it's so much easier to adjust power, throttle, super cruise, shoot up pirates, evade interdiction and everything else I've tried.

I'm still using the mouse and game pad for in station stuff but to separate the flight controls really enhanced the enjoyment of the game. Now about that VR.......

[Dolphin Bottlenose]

Originally posted by thecelt:

Now about that VR.......

Go easy on your brain - one thing at a time. :)

[s0laris]

Do not discard Voice Attack. You can get rid of quite a lot of key binds using it and it takes but an hour for setting it up correctly. Also costs only 10 bucks here on Steam. You can augment it with additional 15 quid i think with a HCS voice pack.

Careful though, listening to your favorite billie eilish song may or may not invoke the wrath of System Authority crafts in the area :D

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by thecelt:

I'm still using the mouse and game pad for in station stuff but to separate the flight controls really enhanced the enjoyment of the game. Now about that VR....... :cozyjunimogreen:

If you're planning in VR you really need to get hands on time with the headsets you're thinking of getting.

For example I have an index, it's supposedly got a 110-120 degree field of view, which it does if you use an "in game" FOV tester but it also doesn't have 120 degree field of view and it's actually like you have your hands on the side of your head like a horses blinders in terms of the dead space. Best way I can describe it is it's like there's big screen curved TV's about 2-3 feet in front of each eye, and this is with the lenses pulled that far back my eyelids rub on them.

But other index users apparently have an experience that's nothing like this. And the only reason I can think of as to why is it's some kind of interaction with my head/face/eye shape/positioning.

Meanwhile the RiftS I had was fantastic and there was almost no dead zone for vision on it, even though supposedly the field of view is lower. Only reason I got rid of it was that it kept disconnecting, which is an issue some people have with oculus products. Best explanation I could see though I have no way of testing is that even thought the requirements for the headsets only say that you need USB 3.0 there's actually also a minimum voltage delivery over the USB that's needed (the RiftS being USB powered) which some Mboards/USB cards can't deliver.


But anyway long story short is that it's something that ideally you should have some hands on time with. All I can say however is that the choice between a RiftS that works and an index, I'd pick the rift.

[Moniboi]

Originally posted by A calming voice.:

Originally posted by thecelt:

Second is anyone else who has the VR/Flight stick set up I describe, any feedback of pros/cons you've had are very much appreciated.

Thank you all in advance for any help.

I would advise against an X-52. Saitek's build quality is abysmal and they break within weeks. Since they got taken over by Logitech it's supposedly gotten better, but the problem is that when you order one you have no control over whether you get a newer Logitech era one or some of the Saitek backstock.

For the same price you can also get the thrustmaster t16000m HOTAS, which as far as I am aware most people would say is better and I agree. The low end Thrustmaster sticks have durability issues themselves, but they're not as bad as saitek.


Advantages to the 1600m over the Saitek is that the throttle is just better. It has more buttons and hats, it also has an analogue stick which the saitek doesn't (very useful for thrusters in games like this vs a hat) and it has a paddle axis which can be used for rudders/yaw which is immeasurably better than using the twist axis on a stick.

Advantages to the X52 over the 1600m is that the stick on the saitek is far better. Less buttons (technically) but they're much better laid out. It also has a pinky switch and a two stage trigger which is nice. There's also the advantage that the in game controls are modelled after the X52 but that's not that meaningful, especially if you're planning on playing other games.

Let me correct something here. The X52 has a worse joystick in terms of the tracking by far, though I haven't noticed a difference in my use. It t16000m uses a superior tracking technology (similar to the warthog), resulting in very precise tracking, which leaves the X52 in the dust in that regard.

As for my experiences with these sticks, here we go:

The T16000m (only joystick):
-The stick takes a lot of force to move. The stick is fairly light, so this causes it to move around easily. It does, however, also give more feedback, which is preferred by some. I'm not too inclined either way in terms of the feeling itself, but the lightness is a problem due to this.
-It's very comfortable in the hand for me to hold, which is good.
-The handrest piece at the bottom would move around, which threw me off a bit as it's definitely not supposed to move like that. This seems to happen after a while.
-As a standalone joystick, it worked well. The small throttle thingy felt satisfying to use and did its job. The buttons at the base of the stick were fine for that and there's a lot of them.
-That was until not too much use. After a week or two, the twist axis started doing its own thing. It would register twisted inputs without me doing anything, making games unplayable if using yaw. Looking at it online, it seems to be a hardware flaw with the stick itself, so the problem would come up eventually with even a new one of those. At this point, I got the X52.

The X52 (Logitech one):
-Immediately noticed a stick with much less resistance. I can easily adapt to these things, so it isn't an inferior or superior experience for me in terms of the feel. However, it does mean the stick moves around less.
-Very comfortable to hold as well and the handrest piece does not move when in use and is adjustable on height.
-As a HOTAS setup, the buttons are great. Lots of them and in nice places. Very much like the shift button at the bottom of the area behind the joystick where you'll find the trigger at the top. I like secondary on holding that and pressing the trigger along with primary fire being just the trigger. It's very much to my liking. Additionally, the cover for the fire button is satisfying to fidget with.
-While the joystick tracking is technically worse, I don't notice this as I'm not overly focused on that in my playing.
-No yaw issue like with the T.16000m. The joystick has lasted with me over a month now without issues. Not too long, but better than the Thrustmaster that I had.
-The throttle is also quite nice. It does its job well, though I would love some paddles at the back as a feature even if I much prefer using twist on my joystick.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Moniboi:

Let me correct something here. The X52 has a worse joystick in terms of the tracking by far, though I haven't noticed a difference in my use. It t16000m uses a superior tracking technology (similar to the warthog), resulting in very precise tracking, which leaves the X52 in the dust in that regard.)

The idea it has better tracking is marketing shpiel, same with 500,000dpi mice.

The joystick's throw is, let's be generous and assume 8". X52's sensors have 2048 resolution, 1600m's have 16k resolution

Or in other words the saitek can differentiate 0.004 of an inch increments and the t1600m can differentiate 0.0005 of an inch (it actually can't due to sensor fluctuation on hall effect, but...).

You can't move your hands with that level of precision, so it doesn't matter.

[thecelt]

Range of motion is good, but these little suction cups on the bottom aren't worth a darn. I'm going to take them off and put Velcro on the bottom so the joystick doesn't lean when I'm turning hard.

[Moniboi]

Originally posted by A calming voice.:

Originally posted by Moniboi:

Let me correct something here. The X52 has a worse joystick in terms of the tracking by far, though I haven't noticed a difference in my use. It t16000m uses a superior tracking technology (similar to the warthog), resulting in very precise tracking, which leaves the X52 in the dust in that regard.)

The idea it has better tracking is marketing shpiel, same with 500,000dpi mice.

The joystick's throw is, let's be generous and assume 8". X52's sensors have 2048 resolution, 1600m's have 16k resolution

Or in other words the saitek can differentiate 0.004 of an inch increments and the t1600m can differentiate 0.0005 of an inch (it actually can't due to sensor fluctuation on hall effect, but...).

You can't move your hands with that level of precision, so it doesn't matter.

Well, I'm only talking technicalities here. I did mention that I haven't noticed any difference in practical use. It does, however, have much better tracking. If the effect of this is negligible, that's a separate matter.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Moniboi:

Well, I'm only talking technicalities here. I did mention that I haven't noticed any difference in practical use. It does, however, have much better tracking. If the effect of this is negligible, that's a separate matter.

I was more trying to explain why you don't notice a difference even though the natural assumption is that 16k v 2k would be a world of difference.

The advantage of hall effect sensors isn't actually the precision, but the fact there's no contact so they have longer lifespans over older potentiometer style joysticks. This doesn't really matter for cheaper joysticks though as all of the components are plastic (even the internals on the warthog) so they'll likely wear down as soon or sooner than the sensors.

Though I think the X52 itself is also a hall effect stick, just filtered down to 2048 positions.

[Dolphin Bottlenose]

Originally posted by A calming voice.:

The advantage of hall effect sensors isn't actually the precision, but the fact there's no contact so they have longer lifespans over older potentiometer style joysticks.

Not to mention that both of my t16000m and the Warthog have zero dead zones, even after using the Warthog for maybe 3000+h in the game (not counting the t16km's yaw, that incidentally has a pot, not a Hall sensor). And the dead zones reduce the resolution further.