Why PvP in ED sucks

[Agony_Aunt]

So, i made the comment in another thread, and was asked to expound my thoughts on this matter.

So, ill start off by contradicting myself a bit, and say that it doesn't entirely suck, and that many players enjoy PvP in ED and some good fun can be had.

However - ED in general is a bad game to play if you want it to be your focus or if you don't make it your focus, then you are at a disadvantage in any PvP encounter.

Why?

1) Consequences of death: We have insurance, but once you are flying those bigger ships, the time lost to death can be significant. Unless you are the sort of player that is happy just chasing the get-quick-rich schemes (currently the long range smuggling missions), then you can lose significant playtime by dying. Most good PvP games have limited consequences for death. They don't set you back much or at all. Perhaps a respawn timer, or you are out until the end of the match, then you are back in the game. No serious loss. For people trading its even worse, when the cost of loss of cargo can be higher than the insurance cost of the ship.

2) It can be hard to find challenging PvP. Sure, some people just want easy kills (separate point) but some actually seek out challenging opponents. But in game, the ways of doing this are limited, and you can spend a lot of time actually finding combat with good opponents. Not everyone likes to sealclub... but those people suffer the same problem as point 1. Downtime. They don't lose credits, they just have to spend time finding people to PvP with. This is why we are seeing things like organized events for PvPers from time to time. But the matchmaking is done out of game, because in game, its not easy.

3) Skill vs ship: This is one of my main issues with PvP in ED. Skill beats ship in general, but if you don't fly the right ship, you do disadvantage yourself. If you accept PvP as a way of life in ED, then you are basically accepting that either you will be at a disadvantage to another player who is in a more PvP oriented ship, or you follow the meta and exclusively fly a PvP fitted combat ship - thereby accepting you do not fly many of the ships in the game, and severely limit what activities you can take part in. A good PvP game is much more biased towards player skill, with each participant on a roughly level playing field.

4) The meta, as in what is currently considered the best ships/loadouts for PvP. Ugh... steath ramming ships is the current meta, and boy, is that annoying for me. Is this a space combat game or demolition derby? Previous meta was all about SCBs... which was also boring as hell. Fights went on forever, and anyone who didn't want to die usually had plenty of opportunity to fire off an SCB and then run. ED simply doesn't do PvP balance/meta very well from what i've seen so far.

I could probably bring up other reasons why I think PvP in ED sucks, but it basically boils down to that if you want to accept PvP and for the encounters to be "fair" then you have to accept you are going to limit what other things you do in game if you play in Open. I know some people play in Open and simply accept that there are those who will attack them in superior ships and try and kill them for no reason. They either die or run, neither of which is actually providing either party a decent PvP experience (although the attacker might get some satisfaction from killing a player in an inferior ship - some people are like that "Yay! I killed another T6! I'm so great!").

I've been called a coward and a carebear by hardcore PvPers because i play in Private Groups to avoid the PvP. I find it amusing, since what they actually mean is they are upset that they can't attack me in their PvP configured ships while i'm perhaps flying an Asp configured for running missions, or even a FdL configured for PvE combat (its a very different meta you follow, one that is not suited for PvP)... not to mention that the most dedicated PvPers fly in wings of 4... and its understandable, they have to, because there are other PvPers out there in their PvP configured ships flying in wings of 4... its an arms race. Its not being a coward or a carebear avoiding heavily one sided encounters by whatever means possible. If there was only a single game mode, i'd simply avoid systems where PvPers are known to exist, i still wouldn't be engaging in PvP with them.

Funny thing is, I actually enjoy PvP in games which are focused on it or balanced for it. GTA5, Quake, UT, Age of Empires, Starcraft, the list goes on and on. I'm not against PvP in general, just i think it sucks in ED. Losing in those games is fine, winning is great, a real sense of achievement.

Losing to PvP in ED is a chore as you need to then get your credits back, and winning doesn't present me with much sense of satisfaction either, i know i've just consigned another player to having to get those credits back.

I don't think FD can do anything much to satisfy the PvP hungry beyond what already exists, except perhaps for better in-game communication tools allowing people who want PvP to engage, perhaps a more real time bounty system. At least not without fundamentally changing what the game is.

Its quite clear the game was designed as a PvE game with the possibility of limited PvP. FD simply didn't consider or care about the PvP hungry players, because they were not making the game for that sort of player. They (probably misguidedly) thought CQC was the solution to the PvP "problem", but failed to understand the playerbase. I enjoy CQC for what it is, but its something i jump into when i just want a change of pace, not something i want as my main game, and for many PvPers i think its the same. They don't care about flying the small ships in limited encounters. They have worked hard to get their pimped out ships and want to fly those in PvP.

Might even be worth it as an experiment for FD to make a PvP arena in the main game, where players are free to bring their ships, where there is reduced or even zero insurance costs, and let people who want to PvP in the main game, do it to their heart's content.

Of course, it won't deal with the dedicated sealclubbers and griefers, but it might be interested for the dedicated PvPer looking for a challenging match.

Anyway, my thoughts, probably rambled on too much anyway. Feel free to discuss, or tell me how that i'm wrong and don't understand PvP in this game ;)

[fivemilesmile]

Publicado originalmente por mrraybaker:

PS.... I expect everyone agreeing with the OP to henceforth and forever be immune to being called a "fanboy" because we happen to like the rest of the game ;)

Im already immune to any of that not coming from friends, as any random folks do not know enough of me for their opinion to count.
And if friends say that, it also won't hurt but makes me stop and think, because their opinion counts.

[raymazoida]

So general thoughts so far on how to improve PvP seems to be

More Reward
Less Risk
Combination of both.

Anyone got any thoughts on how else to improve it so it doens't "suck"?

[fivemilesmile]

Publicado originalmente por mrraybaker:

So general thoughts so far on how to improve PvP seems to be

More Reward
Less Risk
Combination of both.

Anyone got any thoughts on how else to improve it so it doens't "suck"?

well yeah, of course: a trader losing a shipment due to a random player could lose hours of playtime and effort, so that trader won't play in Open, or better not. Also an explorer returning with a year worth of trip again won't risk it in Open.

The problem here really is, that when you are faced with an NPC, you know that the NPC has nothing to gain, nothing to lose, no real intentions and emotions behind it all - it does its job just as your toaster, or microwave owen, or car, so flying your trade ship around you can expect certain behavior from an NPC and you can learn to counter it.

When a human intercepts you, that human is well aware of the costs and gains, knows how much pain their act would mean to you and also wants certain reactions from you and expect some from themselves (the warm feeling of killing a helpless seal). Also there is no countering it, unless you fly something equal, which defeats the purpose of you being there apart from the PVP intention.

Even if you remove the rebuy cost, I still won't fly my shieldless tradeconda in Open around, because all the while I'm not a sitting duck for any NPC, as I know what to expect from them, I am a dead sitting duck to a half-way decent pilot, and while I really lose hours of my game time, they gain nor lose next to nothing: no incentive to offer my loss for them willingly.

Recently I have started to drop a few of my cargo to any NPC pirate and they leave me alone promptly, the AI is a "fair" role player.

[Laurreth]

My 2¢: "Open world PvP" has never worked and will never work. It's completely incompatible with "PvE progression", and it either leads to full-on psycho grief hell or needs regulatory mechanics that lock the game down to a padded cell, breaking every attempt at a sandbox design.

If you want fun, balanced PvP action, play arena.

[fivemilesmile]

Publicado originalmente por Shadowdancer:

My 2¢: "Open world PvP" has never worked and will never work. It's completely incompatible with "PvE progression", and it either leads to full-on psycho grief hell or needs regulatory mechanics that lock the game down to a padded cell, breaking every attempt at a sandbox design.

If you want fun, balanced PvP action, play arena.

Indeed. If there was only Open, with the conditions we have now, nobody would own anything bigger than a Cobra, as it would take forever to get the credits together with a PvP build. No chance for trading, bounty hunting in RES sites or mining. Maybe the long range smuggling would be the only option to earn any money, as a smuggler build is geared for fast running, but that is all.

It is real life, Elite Dangerous - fine, make it then one really. In real life we have the Police coming down on anyone carrying weapons, do real manhunt after terrorists, idiots with guns or speeders on motorways. Make it Dangerous for those too, who are killing players, not just for those, who are getting ganked because not armed to the teeth. If I'm forced to trade in an environment full of peps after easikillz, I expect the Powers and Government to provide protection, at least in their home systems and maybe in the nearby ones.

[fivemilesmile]

here is a thought for those, who argue this is Elite Dangerous: right, try to kill me in my trader. But if you do, you will be wanted, marked, and you can go on a killing spree, but when you die, that is a save reset. In real life you pay this sort of crime with your life, that makes it a final choice. Let's have the same in the game called Dangerous.

If I'm to fly in Open, and you kill me and I lose a lot, I would be happy with the thought of you having a save reset on your death, by the hands of somebody else, and would not mind offering my hide and losing hours. Would make me even happier to get a notification of your death: "rigth mate, you got what was coming to you" as I grind again.

[Zi]

Good points here. Just one thing else.
About very difference between pve and pvp builds and behavior.

...

Just imagine silent wing in haz res, pirates, what after loosing shields gone SR and tons of small ships with low heat profile.. even ramming you, or FDL npc attacking you with 4 hammers and huge PA, running fit with heatsinks, all HRPs and without shield..

I just even not mention cops doing same around stations. Or npcs ramming you inside station. Or wings with only missiles/torpedoes..

Yeah.
AI might be good so it will erase difference from PvE and PvP builds, and make [s]playing as fun as nightmare[/s] PvE builds absolute.. Now BH is strongly remains me mining :) just a little more active version, say.. animals hunting. Dumb instinct/simple script-driven animals. But even not all animals so dumb as AI in ED now :p

[fivemilesmile]

Publicado originalmente por Zi:

Good points here. Just one thing else.
About very difference between pve and pvp builds and behavior.

...

Just imagine silent wing in haz res, pirates, what after loosing shields gone SR and tons of small ships with low heat profile.. even ramming you, or FDL npc attacking you with 4 hammers and huge PA, running fit with heatsinks, all HRPs and without shield..

I just even not mention cops doing same around stations. Or npcs ramming you inside station. Or wings with only missiles/torpedoes..

Yeah.
AI might be good so it will erase difference from PvE and PvP builds, and make [s]playing as fun as nightmare[/s] PvE builds absolute.. Now BH is strongly remains me mining :) just a little more active version, say.. animals hunting. Dumb instinct/simple script-driven animals. But even not all animals so dumb as AI in ED now :p

well yeah. It always felt "unreal" to have thousands of NPC ships around for me to kill, really like shooting ducks with shotgun, of fishing with dinamite.. This concept is all wrong, also creates a huge PvE-PvP difference: you can kill any number of NPCs, it still won't prepare you against players, if anything, it makes you more dumb.

[Zi]

Oh dam, I mean `[and make PvE builds] obsolete`, not absolute.
My bad, lol.

Anyways, we have famous griefers and serial killers in galaxy, many knows their names. Those who just having fun killing traders, other clean ships. Why not to hire such a advanced npc wings of say couple of silent FDLs or FAS to make them feel the same? ;)

They pretending they are advanced. So be it! Get advanced fights! You`ll be interdicted usually of wing of 4 silent DBS mercenaries equipped with 4x MC. Have fun!

[raymazoida]

Publicado originalmente por longstar:

It is real life, Elite Dangerous - fine, make it then one really. In real life we have the Police coming down on anyone carrying weapons, do real manhunt after terrorists, idiots with guns or speeders on motorways. Make it Dangerous for those too, who are killing players, not just for those, who are getting ganked because not armed to the teeth..

Funny isn't it

Every ganker in history says "but it's called Dangerous"... yet they scream blue murder when the thought of it being dangerous for them is brought up.... I'm pretty sure the box didn't say

"Dangerous for traders explorers and noobs"

or

"Play your way as there is crime but no punishment"!

[hyperion]

Agony_Aunt is starting a fight! Oh noes! Multiplayer sucks in all games. You know why? Humans!

[raymazoida]

Publicado originalmente por longstar:

well yeah, of course: a trader losing a shipment due to a random player could lose hours of playtime and effort, so that trader won't play in Open, or better not. Also an explorer returning with a year worth of trip again won't risk it in Open.

I wonder... as I approach the bubble after my ooo 2 month maybe exploration trip, I have been exploring in open... but thats easy when you know the odds of meeting someone are so small as to be negligable... and the odds that person will be hostile even less so... buts as I get back towards humanity, and some other players I wonder how smart that is...

I wonder how many of those PvPers saying Solo/private shoudl be closed earnt all their money for their ships in open... and if so what route they took... because I'd put money that it wasn't trading, likely not exploring, possibly smuggling with a fast ship. But perhaps not as you can of course get people camping robigo, and surely would were there no other game mode.

To me it smacks an awful lot of "pulling the ladder up behind you"

[Laurreth]

Publicado originalmente por mrraybaker:

I wonder... as I approach the bubble after my ooo 2 month maybe exploration trip, I have been exploring in open... but thats easy when you know the odds of meeting someone are so small as to be negligable... and the odds that person will be hostile even less so... buts as I get back towards humanity, and some other players I wonder how smart that is...

I'd definitely approach the outermost system of the faction you want to sell your info to in solo. Not even due to gankers, but due to the "interesting dynamics" of online play. There's just so much more that can go wrong when you're sharing an instance, ranging from very inopportune disconnections, over invisible but collidable ships, to missing or even flipping stations.

[fivemilesmile]

Publicado originalmente por mrraybaker:

Publicado originalmente por longstar:

well yeah, of course: a trader losing a shipment due to a random player could lose hours of playtime and effort, so that trader won't play in Open, or better not. Also an explorer returning with a year worth of trip again won't risk it in Open.

I wonder... as I approach the bubble after my ooo 2 month maybe exploration trip, I have been exploring in open... but thats easy when you know the odds of meeting someone are so small as to be negligable... and the odds that person will be hostile even less so... buts as I get back towards humanity, and some other players I wonder how smart that is...

I wonder how many of those PvPers saying Solo/private shoudl be closed earnt all their money for their ships in open... and if so what route they took... because I'd put money that it wasn't trading, likely not exploring, possibly smuggling with a fast ship. But perhaps not as you can of course get people camping robigo, and surely would were there no other game mode.

To me it smacks an awful lot of "pulling the ladder up behind you"

I will make the last 1000 lights in Solo for sure :) call me chicken, but if I make it to that point, I will have 100,000 light years and six months of play to lose. No amount of penalty would compensate for that, unless I could get a real name and address.That would come handy, in a Jay and Silent Bob sort of way.

Lol good point on griefers background. Bet their credits did not get collected by flies as well. It is all the same old story innit? "I kill cause I can." But as soon they get to lose on the business, the fun is suddenly missing.

On the other hand, even the healthiest body needs viruses (or can benefit of one): what you survive makes you stronger. It does not mean the virus is necessary, more like tolerated bad, that needs to be fought off. These guys are just like that for this community.

[fivemilesmile]

Publicado originalmente por mrraybaker:

Publicado originalmente por longstar:

It is real life, Elite Dangerous - fine, make it then one really. In real life we have the Police coming down on anyone carrying weapons, do real manhunt after terrorists, idiots with guns or speeders on motorways. Make it Dangerous for those too, who are killing players, not just for those, who are getting ganked because not armed to the teeth..

Funny isn't it

Every ganker in history says "but it's called Dangerous"... yet they scream blue murder when the thought of it being dangerous for them is brought up.... I'm pretty sure the box didn't say

"Dangerous for traders explorers and noobs"

or

"Play your way as there is crime but no punishment"!

exactly, it should be Dangerous to everyone, in equal way. Was a good comment on the bounty - make them pay for what they take away. If they cannot swallow what they bit off, oh well, then it is Sidey time. Would mean at least a few dozen hours of clean air for us until they back in the game with a " PvP" ship again.