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Any more than 10% of your total hull HP in module reinforcement health and your ship will die with fully functional modules. Any less and the ship starts falling apart from underneath you. I found this notion works for PVE and PVP for me at least.
Also close to 10% is good enough. Don't worry about it if you aren't exact. For PVP I go a bit above 10% on module protection due to module snipers and for PVE I don't care if I get to 10%.
Fighting thargoids I found I needed 3 module reinforcements and about 20%~25% of my ships hull health as total module reinforcement health or my ship's modules would start falling apart long before my hull did. (Not running an AMFU or limpets of any kind on my build though) I can solo any thargoid in game but a Hydra with my ship set up that way.
Note what @master4arms said. Pretty useful information.
I'd also like to add that if you combine a 4D with any E-grade (which can be smaller), you'll get a bit less protection throughout the start of the fight (which is fine since your hull in good state will prevent most penetration at this stage). But with an added benefit:
If you get to the stage where your ship is heavily damaged, penetration will happen often and D-grade modules will break rather quickly from burst damage attacks or sustained attacks that accurately hit any module. The E-grade reinforcement will shine there as it will provide longer lasting protection (though of a lesser magnitude) than a D-grade in a low hull integrity state.
Also, keep in mind: module reinforcements collapse in predictable ways. If all your module reinforcements are of the same class (all D or all E), then whichever has the least integrity will be targeted first. And if you have a mixture of D and E grade, the D-grade will be targeted first.
You can achieve different types of "module shielding curves" depending on your needs and how you set up the reinforcements.
2 class 4 + 1 class 2. 3 class 4 *or* 2 class 4 + 2 class 2 are acceptable but don't go over.
The 'diminishing returns' thing is...misleading. You'll hit a diminishing returns point in the % damage reduction, but there isn't a diminishing returns point on actual module integrity bonuses.
For me, 2 class 4 and 1 class 2 means I start getting important systems (distributor, drives) failing when hull is between 30 and 40% (unless I take an unlucky PA shot or get sniped by rails.) For most PvE this is fine, I have enough of a hull buffer to reboot-repair and flee. For PvP, or if I was trying to solo a wing assasination mission or something, I'd probably go for 2 class 2 and 4 class 4, which would cost me ~10% of my hull but mean I would be fully operational for a lot longer.
It isn't misleading. What master4arms means is that if you dedicate too many optional internals to module reinforcements, you'll run into these problems:
- A significant hit in overall hull health.
- The aforementioned significant penalty to hull health will mean that your hull percentage will drop faster, which in turn means that you'll start taking a larger volume of penetrating shots sooner in a fight and in turn start wearing out your module reinforcements faster.
(As a sidenote: a friend and me have beaten Thargoid cyclopes on Challengers and Crusaders set up with 2 module reinforcements).
I don't think you have ever taken this setup to either PvP or wing assassinations, if you have done those activities to begin with.
First, your 2 class 2s and 4 class 4s, you cannot install in a Challenger unless you're willing to use a size 6 slot for that. And if you were to do that, you'd chop off most of your hull; *this* is the diminishing returns situation that you labeled as misleading. What you're proposing is to basically fly a paper armor ship with unkillable modules. You won't be operational for longer, you'll be operational for much less due to trading more than half your potential hull integrity for module integrity.
You shouldn't stay in a place and keep fighting till you get to the point where you have to reboot for repairs during a fight so that you can flee. If you get to that point, you either have critical core system malfunctions (which means your ship is no longer combat-worthy and is a reason to leave BEFORE it compromises you, not *during*) or you have broken down weapons that will keep malfunctioning until repaired (and each malfunction takes away a chunk of durability, so they will keep breaking down and won't be reliable until properly repaired). A core system malfunction that requires a reboot can, by itself, *prevent* you from escaping after the reboot since your ship can keep taking module damage during the reboot process and you might end up with a broken module again after the reboot is done. And if you have broken utilities, odds are they broke from missiles and most likely your point defence went out alongside these, and that's not something you want inoperable in a hull tank.
Challenger has for optionals: 6, 6, 4(M), 4(M), 4(M), 3, 3, 2, 1.
You can run two Size 4 MRPs and a size 2 MRP without touching the 6's at all, lol...
https://s.orbis.zone/j674
https://s.orbis.zone/j675
iirc that's roughly my Challanger build and it holds just fine. you can fill in the weapons :P
2:There's also a reason I specified 'non thargoid pve'
As was pointed out, no. You can fit 4 MRPs on a Challenger just fine.
It sounds to me like you don't actually fly hull tanks.
See, I fly a chieftan. I run 2 class 4 MPRs and 1 class 2 MRP. That is the max *before* the module protection % diminishing returns point.
In that chieftan, depending on what specific weapons are being used to attack me, 30% is when important things, like the engines, start to fail and it's time to flee. And yes, if possible you flee *before* they fail but 30% is when failure becomes likely. By suggesting 3 or 4 of them I'm *not* suggesting a ship with "paper armor." I'm suggesting that balances it's armor and module protection such that 'critical modules start failing' and 'you explode' happen as close to 'at the same time' as is possible. With only 2 4D MRPs, my experience is that important things (like your engines) tend to be completely gone between 75% hull and 50% hull, which makes all that *extra* hull minimally useful because you're being forced to flee while it's still there. By running 3 instead of 2 I give up 1000 effective hull health (ie I have 11% less health) in exchange for 10% extra module protection and like 20% more module integrity. A 4th makes this trade again, but it's a 3% increase in % damage reduction and a like 15% increase in module armor.
(Also, for PvE at least, Chaff, to preserve what shield you do have and so avoid having to take hull damage and risk missiles in the first place, tends to be more effective than point defense, especially because point defense only protects you from certain angles and chaff protects you from every angle)
For PvE this kinda breaks them down into a couple broad catagories.
2 MRPs: Safest, stays combat effective the shortest amount of time (critical stuff starts breaking while you're still at very high hull, but you have a huge hull-buffer so you can reboot-repair and run away)
3 MRPs: Some Saftey. Can stay in combat longer. Critical stuff starts breaking while you're at 30% ish hull, less of a buffer.
4 MRPs: Not Safe. Can stay in combat the longest. Critical stuff usually doesn't start breaking until you're at 10%-20% hull which might not be enough time to reboot-repair and flee if an unlucky missile hit blows out your engines or something.
(It also depends on if you want to be PvP safe. Because aggressive module sniping is so common in PvP I'd tend to recommend the 4 MRPs if that's in your plans, you'll need the extra protection and they probably won't give you the chance to reboot/repair anyways.)
Chaff protects you from gimbals/turrets, Point defense guards your nacelles / thrusters from missiles. So to be fair, completely different things :P
I do generally prefer Chaff though, I only run PD on mining / trade ships and that's just to guard the cargo hatch.
I'm absolutely an advocate of using MRPs but honestly, Guardian Shield Boosters were such a boost to my PvE Chief that I haven't seen module failure in ages.
I thought you couldnt one shot thargoids
anymore ?
The biggest warning I get first and foremost that my ship is getting messed up is the Module Reinforcement Disabled alert messages. I count how many of those I get and when the messages warning me my MRPs are gone equal to how many I have equipped I know it is time to wrap up the fight and run or commit until the rebuy screen. I usually don't have to make this choice until around 25~30% hull when running 2 class D MRPs. I don't know if this is because I am lucky all the time or I do as Mr Piccolo taught me and DODGE! things trying to shoot me. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvS6zMThiZU) Thus preventing things from getting regular clean hits on any one module.
I've also had mixed luck with rebooting and running when my FSD get's shot out, but that does not happen unless it gets sniped or I am at about 30% or lower hull remaining. The only thing I've had fail commonly at above 50% hull is thrusters and externals if I get missiled or modules that are being sniped by players, Spec Ops or Goids.
Chaff is amazing, but does nothing against missiles. Point Defense is not a bad option to have on a ship if you can fit it, but if you have 4 utility mounts or less Chaff is a better option to use over point defense or trying to run both. If the chaff keeps getting blown off or keeps malfunctioning when you need them I found it better to use shielded engineering on it than getting the extra ammo. Too many times my chaff has dumped all its ammo during malfunctions or just strait up broke with more then 7 uses left.
As for point defense not being good because it only covers certain parts of the ship, learn to roll when you hear or see the missile alert until you hear/see your PD firing. Also PD is way better than the ECM due to how ECM is programmed to work.
The size and combo of the MRPs don't matter when it comes to resistances just the number of them. Their size just dictates how long they last in a fight. Which is why I said base your module protection health off your total hull points. I found through extensive trial and error the 10% mark works wonders. You will blow up at about the same time your important modules crap out. Granted I use Armored Powerplants and Shielded FSD engineering along side good module power priority settings. (Yes, this matters greatly on any build even in PvE.) I can't tell you how many times I've had player's ships stop dead in their tracks when they have output down malfunctions on their plants.
Here is the breakdown for D Class Module Reinforcement Packages and the diminishing returns that DO exist in game for them. Do with this info what you want.
9 MRPs = 100% Internal Protection 50% Hardpoint Protection
8 MRPs = 99.9% Internal Protection 50% Hardpoint Protection
7 MRPs = 99.8% Internal Protection 49.9% Hardpoint Protection
6 MRPs = 99.6% Internal Protection 49.8% Hardpoint Protection
5 MRPs = 99% Internal Protection 49.5% Hardpoint Protection
4 MRPs = 97.4% Internal Protection 48.7% Hardpoint Protection
3 MRPs = 93.6% internal Protection 46.8% Hardpoint Protection
2 MRPs = 84% Internal Protection 42% Hardpoint Protection
1 MRPs = 60% Internal Protection 30% Hardpoint Protection
Guardian versions do not make any difference in protection rates they just have more heath at the cost of needing to use power and being stuck at priority 1 in the module power settings.
I'm not doing the Class E breakdown, but it takes 9 of them to about equal to the same protection as 4 Class Ds.
Diminishing returns is on protection percentage though.
Using the Challenger I linked above, it has 89% protection with 3 MRPs, one is a class E.
Adding a 4th MRP, it goes up to 96%, a fairly small gain not worth a slot, right?
The raw module armor jumps from 600 to 755 - that's a substantial increase in how much I have to blast an Armored Power Plant with High Yield Cannons (as an example, that is, I'm not claiming they're good or w/e). The protection percentage has diminishing return at 3 MRP - the raw module armor has no such issue. I usually run 3 MRP on anything I expect to take hull damage in as a general balance but if its a Medium Intensity Conflict Zone, I usually throw a fourth MRP on the Chief since those usually give me a 4 man Spec ops wing that target modules more; that railgun ASPX Spec OPs is irritating at times.
And yeah don't bother with Class E breakdown; they're useful to add more raw module armor per slot when you're already at 3 Class D MRPs.
Kind of like how Hull Reinforcement gets diminishing returns on damage resist values, but you smash more Heavy Duty + Deep HRPs in there just because it adds more raw hull.
Tl:dr though MRPs equaling 10% of (effective) hull is fine as a rule of thumb, that's also what I use. There might be special edge cases where you can squeak out marginal gains in efficacy but I really don't care lol