What am i doing wrong? (i suck at combat)

[Rina Ravyn]

Ever since i started ED out in 2014 i had this lackluster feeling about combat, that, every bot i faced (i play PVE exclusively) had stronger weapons than myself, even when theyre the same...

Getting an Eagle i thought, id do better, but i got the same results.
Getting a Cobra i thought, id do at least a bit better now!, but i got the same results.
Getting an ASPX i thought, im SURE gonna notice some improvement now... but i still got the same results...
Even making a pitstop at a Vulture had me kinda disappointed.

And then last month i had 50kk creds saved up, finally unlocked Baron rank and got the Clipper that i wanted for 5 years....

and im still getting ♥♥♥♥ed up in combat even by Viper Mk IVs, vultures, and ASPs constantly...

so are the bots just buffed or is there something to combat that im missing, other than the ovbious stuff to upgrade your ship proper? (i made a 300LY journey to get the 5A frameshift Q.Q)

Would shutting off flight assist help, maybe? At least theoreticly me thinks it gives an edge but i tried it once and it was a disaster xD

[Les Grossman]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Katarina:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Space Hobo:

especially for something small you seem to enjoy that much, haha.

what is it with all of you saying i enjoy small ships?

The Clipper isnt small O.o


or am i missing something here?

Yes. Clipper is an actual midget of a ship disguising as a large vessel, don't let your eyes deceive you.

[T-Bone Biggins]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Manwith Noname:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Katarina:

nothing is engineered... most of them i havent even unlocked..

Yeah, you probably want to get on that. NPC ships can use engineering and if you are encountering them without any yourself, you're at a distinct disadvantage.

Hey can anyone confirm this? If so this would explain how in the past few days an Asp Explorer and an Anaconda turned faster than my Viper MkIII in separate fights. And I'm not a dogfighting noob, I'd say middling in skill level and I use all thrusters/FA-ff toggle on the ship properly. My Viper MkIII is simply A-rated with no engineering and I'm seriously contemplating dirty drives after seeing a few chunky ships out-maneuver me.

[ferus]

Actually, engineering isn't that bad with the Beyond updates. Engineers, their requirements and their work has been fleshed out and it's very easy to understand (+ you are always guaranteed a better result).

With the new exploration mechanics even the material gathering isn't that bad.

Worst thing is unlocking all those buggers who require special commodities. THAT I hated most of all.

[T-Bone Biggins]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ferus:

Actually, engineering isn't that bad with the Beyond updates. Engineers, their requirements and their work has been fleshed out and it's very easy to understand (+ you are always guaranteed a better result).

With the new exploration mechanics even the material gathering isn't that bad.

Worst thing is unlocking all those buggers who require special commodities. THAT I hated most of all.

I'm mostly asking about engineering in AI ships in high-res, haz-res, and the various CZ's. I thought they had engineering in the past, unsure if it was removed or not.

[Rina Ravyn]

they got to have... there is no way some ships are as strong as they are... and the powergap is also something to take into consideration...

two fights, two pythons. both i have fought seperate with the same setup on my clipper, one in low intensity CZ, the other in high sec nav beacon.

The nav beavon python was childs play... shields like butter, hull just a bit harder but still "easy". barely took any damage in return either.

i made the mistake of taking that fight and applying it to all future encounters with pythongs... BOI WAS I WRONG

CZ python took me from behind AND NO lube... end of story was a loss of my ensurance cost because i was about 1 second too late to enter the station... life support failure... saw my ship blow up inside the station tho, so...

the thing i tried to figure out these past days is what exact penalty you get on shield strenght for going over opt. mass because coriolis sure doesnt tell you... i tried... plz help =D

[GunBoat]

I don't see an issue with that, maybe more detail will help.

The optimal hull mass for shield generators only takes into account the base mass of the hull. The mass of all the subsystems and components added to it, do not count.

Actual base hull mass below the shield's optimum hull mass, shields work at capacity. Actual base hull mass above the optimum, shields work on a diminished capacity. Actual base hull mass above the maximum shield rating it can protect, the field isn't able to be created.

Increasing System pips doesn't increase overall strength but increases regeneration rate, more power equals faster recovery.

As I understand it anyway.

[Rina Ravyn]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από God:

Actual base hull mass above the optimum, shields work on a diminished capacity.

and THAT value is what im intrested in.

you didnt need to recount all of that the basics i had down...

i just 1.) didnt know added components to cross from below optimal mass to above had no effect on the shields strengh.
2.) i just want to know to what extent the shield is diminished when above optimal mass.

i cant find that percentage or flat penalty ANYWHERE

[GunBoat]

I didn't know what basics you had down, maybe I missed a previous post, not sure.

The calc you ask for is not necessary, you should not run with the optimal mass of the shield less than your base hull mass. It should always be just a little larger.

So if I have a 405 base hull mass, I can down slot my 6 shield that is 540 optimal to a 5 slot shield that is 450 optimal and be just fine with no penalty. 405 being less than 450. Good to go, then just A rate it and engineer it maybe go prismatic to up it's capability, etc.

Only use a shield that has it's optimal greater than the actual base hull mass and you don't need to do that calc.

I do not know if anyone other than FDevs knows the exact calc code.

[Rina Ravyn]

Ok, so, if the diminishing returns are actually not public knowledge (wich i dont quite understand but they might have their reasons) i can just take the values of shield strenght from corelois and assume all the Class 6 ones on the clipper have less than advertised?

Clipper is 300~ish tons above the class 6 shields optimal... there must be a massive penalty on it q.q

[Les Grossman]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Katarina:

Ok, so, if the diminishing returns are actually not public knowledge (wich i dont quite understand but they might have their reasons) i can just take the values of shield strenght from corelois and assume all the Class 6 ones on the clipper have less than advertised?

Clipper is 300~ish tons above the class 6 shields optimal... there must be a massive penalty on it q.q

Dude, you gotta be more specific here, like post your build in Coriolis or something? Usually going biggest possible A-rated shield for combat never fails. Slap on some boosters, maybe PD, or Heatsink along with SCB and you're set to go kicking ass of any ordinary NPC ships.

You gotta keep in mind difficulty of said NPC, like if you're up against Harmless Python somewhere in Nav Beacon, you can take him out in starting Winder without breaking a sweat. Deadly or Elite of same Python will be pretty tough match even for your A-rated large ship built for combat. As I mentioned, in CZs I haven't seen NPCs below Expert rank and they all have best non-engineered combat modules you can get, so that makes them pretty hard to crack. I also believe they might have better weapon loadouts than ordinary pirates, but nothing unusual or something unrealistic to tackle in combat capable ship.

When you're in CZ fighting higher difficulty Python, or something bigger, make sure his friendlies don't go ham on you and have an ability to go evasive if things aren't going your way. Still, not sure why you so bent on going in CZ. Try High Res, there are cops, follow them, practice, see what works and what doesn't in your build. Skill is pretty irrelevant when you fight against bots, it all goes down to stats and numbers to be honest.

[GunBoat]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Katarina:

Ok, so, if the diminishing returns are actually not public knowledge (wich i dont quite understand but they might have their reasons) i can just take the values of shield strenght from corelois and assume all the Class 6 ones on the clipper have less than advertised?

Clipper is 300~ish tons above the class 6 shields optimal... there must be a massive penalty on it q.q

Where are you getting 300 above? I open coriolis and the clipper and the base hull is 400. The stock 6E shield optimal value is 540. That's 140 over which is what you want. No penalties.

[Rina Ravyn]

My clippers mass is 850 laden

granted thats 700 unladen wich is only 200 above but still above...

EDIT: im blonde in the head... added mass didnt count when it goes over optimal


see! this is the ♥♥♥♥ i have to deal with on a daily basis xD
girls just shouldnt play games =D

[GunBoat]

True, added mass does not count at all. Don't use the laden or the unladen when working with shields. Use only the base hull mass 400.

All the shield has to do is fit around your ship. It doesn't care what's inside of it.

Now this all doesn't mean that an update couldn't change some of that in the future but that is how the wiki, reddit, and other sites indicate shields work at this time.

I didn't know this until I researched it on multiple sites. You're correct in that ED does not provide good documentation and we all have to get it off other sites on the Internet. ED has a manual web site but I don't think this is updated, https://www.elitedangerous.com/help/manual/.

Just do the research is all and fly to your hearts content like Dr. Brand.

[Les Grossman]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Katarina:

My clippers mass is 850 laden

granted thats 700 unladen wich is only 200 above but still above...

EDIT: im blonde in the head... added mass didnt count when it goes over optimal


see! this is the ♥♥♥♥ i have to deal with on a daily basis xD
girls just shouldnt play games =D

Now I feel like a blond myself, not sure what you're getting at... I mean Clipper has not best shields out there, but the biggest class and size will still give you best protection, ship mass is nothing you can work around here. It has similar shield strength as some Medium ships out there, hence the price, but that really isn't something to make that ship unable to fight.

[Mc]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Katarina:

2.) i just want to know to what extent the shield is diminished when above optimal mass.

I'm new at the game and can't give you exact equation, but for given situation don't you just see it? When I equip shield I think in specs it lists its supposed shield rating. On bottom left (below components list) it shows the actual shield rating (taking the mass into account) - so you can easily see how much you lose and even calc. the percentage if that is important to you. Whenever I consider new component I always check the lower left as it displays what actual effect it will have.