Mining isn't Broken Just Watch Out For Depletion

[JessyJams]

You can't see the minerals in the Galaxy Map commodity list any more which means you can no longer see which systems are buying or selling minerals of a particular type. You also can't see which of the buyers is paying most.

Furthermore, hotspots don't seem to have ANY of the material specified. I've tried 3 hotspots, each on separate rings of separate planets. Not one had a single asteroid with the specified material after 120+ prospected asteroids. I used the pulse scanner and only tested bright yellow/red.



Edit!

If you are following mining guides and turning up empty handed, It's because of a new mechanic called Depletion.

You can't see it. It's invisible to you, but the more a hotspot is mined, whether by you or someone in solo elsewhere in the world, the fewer good asteroids the hotspot will contain. This effect, while invisible is HUGE. It means the difference between making 20 million credits/hour or not even being able to cover your limpets.

Don't mine the same hotspots as everyone else. If you suspect your hotspot has gone dry move on. THere's no way in game, far as I can tell, to see this mechanic.

[Henry Hatsworth]

If you're going to the gold rush system, it's overpopulated and over mined so finding anything, especially crackable asteroids is going to be nearly impossible.

Which is why I never make use of YouTube videos claiming how to make millions and instead find my own millions.

[Wraith]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από McKE:

I like 3.3 but mining seems broken atm.

Is there really no way to now see who will buy your minerals? We used to be able to filter star systems by import of minerals, now we can't. So this means there's no way to find a buying system, and no way to see which of the buying systems is paying most.

Secondly, hotspots aren't giving any of the mineral specified. I tried 3 hotspots, spent 120+ prospector limpets targeting the bright yellow/red pulse asteroids. Not a single mineral of the hotspot type.

Is someone able to confirm or deny the above? I'm trying to make sense of the new mining system. So far it's nearly impossible to use.

From my experience recently I have had different results. Dropped in on a few hotspots last night and was able to locate some - not many , but some - astroids containing exactly what I was after. Went looking for Low Temp Diamonds and found them. Went looking for Void Opals and found them.

I did have to search through several astroids which had nothing I was looking for, but after about 15 - 20 minutes of searching through angry astroids I finally found one....then another.

[JessyJams]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Gramer Natzi:

I'll try to answer in a way that (hopefully) won't force you to reply with another wall of text missing my fundamental points.

-You are indeed new to mining, same as everyone else, since mining mechanics just got
overhauled. (Unless you're a time traveler from the future, that is. ^^)

- Mining is crazy profitable right now.
There's no need to gather statistical data in order to make 100+ million / hr.
In fact, doing so will likely drive you nuts at this point (since FDevs are still tweaking
things).

I'm not doubting that it CAN be profitable. In fact, I'm not even complaining that there is zero way to get good materials. What I'm complaining about has nothing to do with the literal act of mining itself. What's frustrating me is the miscommunication on that front.


I know about the whole bugged stations buying opals for 1.6m/t. I also know about the Robigo runs and the extinct thargoid money printers. I just don't want to resort to that. Why should I have to do that? Mining was perfectly profitable without abusing the mechanics of the game pre 3.3. SUre, it wasn't hauling level, but it was solid and fun. Now it's fun and too broken to be worth doing unless I use an external tool to find a glitched market to sell my stuff to..

Even if I didn't do that, and I just mined like pre 3.3, I can't find markets to sell to unless I use an external site or randomly station hop until I get lucky? No way. That might be fun if station prices never changed, but they do. I'd have to repeat the same random station hop every time. My credits/hr would plummet.




I'm suggesting that just maybe the hotspots are bugged.

I'm also wondering why, they removed a feature that previously existed (the ability to see import pricing on valuable minerals).

- If you want specific technical data, you won't find it here, I'm afraid.
Either raise a ticket or create a new thread on the official forums:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php/30-Dangerous-Discussion

Well, after further research. I'm certainly not the only one with this issue. It seems the same issues were present during the beta and never addressed

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/9vq6se/33_mining_tutorial/

- The pulse wave analyser does tell you where fissure asteroids are.
It won't tell you anything about asteroid composition, just the "density" of deposits on/in
it.

No glow = surface deposits

Dim - somewhat intense glow = subsurface deposits + surface deposits (maybe)

Very intense glow = deep core deposits (ALWAYS) + surface/subsurface deposits
(maybe)

(Your mileage may vary, but this is the general rule as far as I can tell)

This is absolutely not my experience. I suppose it may always lead me to an asteroid with atleast one new asteroid feature (deposit) of some kind, but that itself is useless. I can't confirm that as I wasn't paying much attention to it.

It most certainly does not lead me to deep core deposites with any semblance of consistency or reliability. I found a total of 1 deep core asteroid in my entire foray and it wasn't the mineral of the hotspot type. The only asteroids I checked were bright bright yellow/red on the pulse scanner. Over 100 of them at 3 separate rings in 3 separate systems. Furthermore, I mined with a friend. I can't say how many he prospected, but I can safely say dozens. He got the exact same results as me. We gave up.

Even you admit there that t his is just "far as I can tell". You can't say for sure what the pulse analyzer is doing. You're not able to answer my question definitively. It seems neither one of us knows what the pulse analyzer is actually measuring.

Just so you know, my first mining foray in 3.3 was a 9 hour disaster, pretty much.
The guide I linked is the product of all the stuff I've learned about the new mining system
since.

Not trying to sound pretentious here... but it freaking works! ^^



Before applying the methods described in the guide --> 4 million/hr
After applying the methods described in the guide --> 100+ million/hr

You put together a fine guide. For me, I didn't learn anything from it though. My issues aren't about using the modules, or finding hotspots, or finding planets or what good rings look like. Those are things I knew how to do going into it (thanks to guides such as yours).

My problems are different. I hope that can be understood. Mine have to do less with procedure and more to do with results/ quality of life.


If the only answer to that question is to use a third party website and/or an exploit, then the system is broken by definition is it not? Clearly it is not profitable to stick only to in game methods, otherwise the answers here would not be to go around the game to make it worthwhile.

From what you say, it seems like you've been mining in "dry" hotspots, where most fissure asteroids have already been mined.

- I can find the specified hotspot minerals without much trouble, as long as I'm not in "dry"
hotspots.
Again, some fissure asteroids in your path will contain different rare minerals, but they'll
be highly profitable all the same.

Is there an in game way to determine what dry means? If by dry, you mean another player was here recently, I find that to be nearly impossible considering i tested three separate rings in 3 separate systems.

I'm not in "gold mine" areas. I'm in self found mining zones spread around. I hardly ever see new players. I suppose there could be a cities worth of people playing solo around me, but how would I know that?Furthermore how would I fix that? If all it takes for a hotspot to be worthless is someone else to have been there recently, am I supposed to relocate? HOw do I choose a hotspot that hasn't gone "dry"?

- You don't have to use online tools, of course, it's up to you.
However, keep in mind that you're having a hard time mining ALSO because you refuse
to use them.
To a certain extent, you're kind of complaining about the consequences of your choices
(when confronted with a problem).

Sure, I agree that there should be ways of obtaining rare mineral demand data in-game.
However, new rare minerals just got here, it'll likely take some time for FDevs to fully
implement everything and fix issues.

It's not about using online tools in general. It's besides the point. I use eddb.iio and others just like most people here. The issue is that for this particular case FDev REMOVED a feature that previously existed. It's not like something is just missing. They removed it.

I used to mine Painite. Painite would go for 40-50k credits/t. If you used the import filter, you could locate markets willing to buy it for 150+k/t. This seems impossible to do now.

Considering FDev intentionally removed the ability to check prices on the only non worthless materials tells me there isn't much hope that FDev intends to fix this in the future.. I was perfectly happy seeing import prices before...

You can either be patient, use online tools temporarily or keep having a hard time finding
certain rare minerals and venting your frustration here ^^.

What's more frustrating than the mining is the total miscommunication we're having here. I'm apparently the only one who thinks losing the import pricing is important to mining. I'm also apparently the only one who finds it odd that hotspots seem to have statistically less of a material than non hotspot mining. These are my only two issues. The rest stem from that.

Besides, you're ignoring the fact that I already do what your guide says. Your guide is for the beginner miner. Most of it is just about how to set up, equip, and use the new modules. It has no advice targeting my concerns.

It doesn't explain how hotspots work, what the increased likelihood is. It doesn't explain an in game way to find markets to sell to. It doesn't show anything at all related to what I'm asking.

I really appreciate your reply. It seems, though, that the true answer seems to be that mining is indeed broken. Unless I use an external site, and follow a careful method of exploiting the supply demand market, mining isn't worthwhile. If I do do that, however, it will make me 100 m Cr/hr. We all know that's not intended and will be nerfed soon. Hopefully when it is nerfed, they'll have fixed this glaringly broken system.

Unless someone can explain an in game way to do the following, my questions can't be answered:

1) non randomly determine whether or not an asteroid is worth further inspection.( I thought the pulse wave scanner was supposed to reliably measure something meaningful)

2) Verify that hotspots indeed have a higher chance of finding the mineral/metal in question.

3) IF they go dry, how does one know this? Is it measureable? How do we know they go dry at all? Is this a wives tale or an actual game mechanic? What's the counter to it?


4) Finding a suitable market that purchases my mined minerals/metals at all, and also does so above the market average.


4, in particular was perfectly doable pre 3.3. 1) was supposed to be pulse wave scanner. and 2) would require admittedly some pretty detailed analysis on the level of the rez site fragment charts from pre 3.3.

I love the new mining tools. Love that it requires more skill now. I absolutely hate that it's devolved into having to use online tools and clear exploits to be worth it. Mining has never been this much of a waste of time for me.

[JessyJams]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Henry Hatsworth:

If you're going to the gold rush system, it's overpopulated and over mined so finding anything, especially crackable asteroids is going to be nearly impossible.

Which is why I never make use of YouTube videos claiming how to make millions and instead find my own millions.

I'm not where other players are. Those are players who just use websites to make up for the failings of Elite. I'm here to play Elite I don't want to do that. I'm where I mine normally. Hardly see anybody where I am. Not sure how I'd know if it were mined even if that's not the case.

I also despise using guides to abuse game mechanics. Learning mechanics is fine, but abusing them I refuse to do. I just want to have fun.

Besides, I use a VR set up. It's a pain in the ass to use external websites and such.

[JessyJams]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Crash Test Dummy:

Select cargo on the right, enter your system, and use the Best Sell tab to find where to go
https://inara.cz/galaxy-commodity/

Forgive my stubborness, but I'm not using an external site to do this. It worked fine pre 3.3 in game. Not going to happen. I'll sooner just not mine. It's profit/hr isn't that impressive to me. I'm trying to mine for fun/roleplay/ credits. I'm not here to ride some exploit wave or spend my time getting out of my VR cockpit to go constantly tweak a website spreadsheet to find out who is now buying the stuff I'm mining at a price worth selling it for. I play Elite dangerous, not Inara.

Mining worked fine, in game with no external tools, pre 3.3. If this is where mining is at now, it's broken. This isn't an improvement.

[Galon007]

This game isnt for everyone. People have so many issues with really simple game mechanics.

[JessyJams]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Galon007:

This game isnt for everyone. People have so many issues with really simple game mechanics.

If you read this thread, you'd know it has nothing to do with the mechanics of mining itself. Don't be a troll.

[JessyJams]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από kcooley29576:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από McKE:

I like 3.3 but mining seems broken atm.

Is there really no way to now see who will buy your minerals? We used to be able to filter star systems by import of minerals, now we can't. So this means there's no way to find a buying system, and no way to see which of the buying systems is paying most.

Secondly, hotspots aren't giving any of the mineral specified. I tried 3 hotspots, spent 120+ prospector limpets targeting the bright yellow/red pulse asteroids. Not a single mineral of the hotspot type.

Is someone able to confirm or deny the above? I'm trying to make sense of the new mining system. So far it's nearly impossible to use.

From my experience recently I have had different results. Dropped in on a few hotspots last night and was able to locate some - not many , but some - astroids containing exactly what I was after. Went looking for Low Temp Diamonds and found them. Went looking for Void Opals and found them.

I did have to search through several astroids which had nothing I was looking for, but after about 15 - 20 minutes of searching through angry astroids I finally found one....then another.

Was it 100 million credit/hr worth? That's the claim here. At this point, I'd be happy finding a single mineral in its own hotspot just for giggles. Mining seems less profitable now than ever unless you want to play ELite Google Search. Even finding a handful of alexandrite asteroids after 4 hours is less profit than the consistent and steady platinum/painite harvesting of old. Mathematically I'm not seeing how a regular guy like me, who wants to go out and mine without websites, exploits or external tools, can justify mining ever again.

Even old school mining is less profitable because it takes more time to find a buyer than before.

[the frost staff]

You can still show trade routes for a group of commodities your looking for, not an exact one, but a group.
I'm still learning how to use the new tools in 3.3 for mining, because I'm mainly a combat person(I'm not a pirate). I'm currently in a system where I am mining for a HUGE profit, so I will be staying away from combat(unless I have to fight).

[JessyJams]

Ok.

I have found answers to these issues. It's not been easy to piece it together. THere's a lot of hearsay and regurgitate information surrounding this.

Let me start by thanking people who engaged in discussion on this. I apologize for the clear frustration, but much of my concerns were not alleviated.

Here's the run down.

1) FDev removed any in game way to view mineral buyer prices. This is a terrible decision that forces people to use external tools even more than they do now. For VR users, this is a huge insult. We can't easily switch to desktop mode. It's not so simple to just have two monitors next to eachother showing Inara and the game. To take a perfectly fine in game method of determing pricing, only to throw it away, when people just go find the prices anyways, is terrible design philosophy.

2) The Pulse Wave scanner is psuedo snake oil. Nobody can say for sure what it does. Ask 10 people, get 10 answers. Or get the same answer but with much mumbling and doubt. Instead, let's say it's supposed to indicate potential. It doesn't do this very well though, but ideally, it indicates the potential of a good asteroid.

It will not tell you the quality of mineral, the type, the content amount, nor the number of minerals in the asteroid. It might tell you something about the types of deposits, such as surface, subsurface, or fissures.

Originally, I thought the idea behind the pulse scanner was to remove "guess and check". That is not the case. You still have to guess and check, but the pulse scanner will guess for you. The checking is still up to you. So don't immediately fire a prospectors, instead use your mining laser to chip it first, then see if it's worth wasting a limpet on.

3) Hotspots are persistent either forever or for a time. The "Dry" asteroid statements are correct but incomplete. It is true that they go Dry, but unlike rez sites, they aren't limited by the 20km max radius for their effect. You can go much further out, where others are far less likely to have strip mined it and get your resources that way.

My problem has mostly been due to assuming you had to be within 20km of the Hotspot drop zone. When I do this, it's always empty most likely because someone mined it before me and it doesn't reset when they leave. If you could not go beyond 20km this would be a deal breaker.

So, if you want to mine a hotspot, do NOT go to the <20km radius like you would a Resource Extraction Site. Pick a spot away from it within the colored circular area from the Analysis mode.


Knowing this it is kinda cool. I like the idea of persistent resources. Now resources actually get depleted. Fortunately, the hotspot areas are large enough to make it easy for you to stake your claim without someone else ruining the fun!

That's it. This is the new mining system. If you don't want to use an external pricing tool. Well, you're a lesser class citizen! So, start up Elite Google Search, get in your mining ship, and go find your ore.

[DownSouth05]

Don't know about broken, but I just did some deep core mining of a few roids marked as "hot" and came away with 12 low temperature diamonds that sold for 7.7 million in the local system. So, if thats broken then I can't wait till they fix it :) Oh and it took 2 hours. Granted its not a huge cash flow and there are other ways that are more lucrative. But its not how much you make, its how much you enjoy doing it :)

[Steve]

Mining is great tbh, better than ever. I just had a quick mining session (under 15 mins)
and got 36 void opals and 22 grandidierite. it's far from broken

[ひき]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από McKE:

1) FDev removed any in game way to view mineral buyer prices. This is a terrible decision that forces people to use external tools even more than they do now. For VR users, this is a huge insult. We can't easily switch to desktop mode. It's not so simple to just have two monitors next to eachother showing Inara and the game. To take a perfectly fine in game method of determing pricing, only to throw it away, when people just go find the prices anyways, is terrible design philosophy.

Wait, really? I'm new and haven't gotten into mining/trading yet but it's what I'm the most excited about doing. Dunno if devs read this forum at all, but I'd like to throw my hat into the ring and say that forcing players to regularly use 3rd party resources for *anything* is a terrible and short-sighted decision. The sole exception being if your game is fully intended to be an AR experience, which is obviously not the case with ED since, you know, space.

Kind of surprised that people are defending it too. Sure external sites can be useful but they shouldn't be an excuse for poor game design. A (non-AR) game should be fully self-contained for the sake of immersion, retention, safety, accuracy, and (in the case of VR users) practical usage. I don't fall into the latter case but I can't imagine how annoying that must be when I, a desktop user, can't stand it.

[van Leeuwenhoek's mustache]

@McKE

I'll answer to the points you made in your previous post (in order, hopefully).

- FDevs have changed the demand system. Now there are several extra factors that determine
station demand for commodities.
The fact that some stations buy void opals at 1.6 million per ton isn't a bug, it's the new
mechanics in action.

This doesn't come from me, this comes from Will Flanagan (community manager):
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/466571-Please-don-t-nerf-the-new-mining?p=7278008&viewfull=1#post7278008

"Hello Commanders,

We wanted to address some concerns you may have regarding the high value of one of the new mining commodities, Void Opals.

Changes to the Background Simulation, which came with Beyond – Chapter Four, mean that there are now more elements that impact the value of a commodity than there were previously. In the instance at Viktorenko Holdings, these elements have lined up for a limited time in a way that allow the faction to be able to offer high prices on specific commodities.

To confirm, this does mean that, at this time, we are not planning to reduce the value of Void Opals.

In addition to this, the more motherlodes (containing Void Opals) that Commanders encounter and mine from (in a ring), the rarer they will become, driving an emergent and natural rush that will force intrepid miners into new horizons, seeking lucrative mining hotspots before they deplete. Ultimately, with the new mining changes, this is something we want to celebrate!

As we've mentioned previously, the Background Simulation is continually being monitored and we may still need to apply some further fine tuning to ensure that the Simulation is as interesting and dynamic as we intended when making these changes."


- Mining pre 3.3 wasn't profitable compared to perfectly legitimate practices, like trade looping basic medicines in outbreak systems.

- I'm not convinced that hotspots are bugged.
I'd need hundreds of hours of extensive testing in order to make such a claim.
(Either that or an official post from an FDev saying so).

I don't know if you realize this, but for someone who demands detailed and precise evidence
in order to be convinced, you seem to be jumping to conclusions rather quick.

You've only been to 3 hotspots, judging from what you said...that doesn't even come close to a reasonable statistical sample.

I've been to dozens of hotspots in dozens of star systems, that's why I can tell you with
confidence that finding the specified rare minerals in hotspots is indeed possible (easy even, when you find a "virgin" hotspot).

Now, I won't make categorical claims either way, since I don't work at Frontier.

Just saying that claims such as "all hotspots are broken" require evidence you don't
have access to (unless you work at Frontier, that is).


- The pulse wave analyser consistently leads me to fissure asteroids, which wasn't the case in
my first mining forays.

What changed? I learned that asteroid glow intensity is the tell-tale sign of fissure asteroids.

How did I learn that? I recorded several hours of my own mining sessions.
I painstakingly analyzed all those hours of footage and captured the pulse wave analyser
readings of dozens of asteroids.

These included:
- Asteroids with surface deposits only.
- Asteroids with subsurface deposits only.
- Asteroids with both surface and subsurface deposits
- Fissure asteroids with all the above.

After comparing their pulse wave analyser readings (by placing them side by side in Photoshop), a clear pattern emerged.

There was a CONSISTENT noticeable difference in the intensity of their glow, which could be used to tell fissure asteroids apart.

In other words, I approached the problem scientifically, based on experimental evidence.
I formulated my glow intensity hypothesis as a result.
This hypothesis has been confirmed by myself and others, unless you show me evidence (video captures) of VERY intensely glowing asteroids CONSISTENTLY failing to contain deep core deposits, I'm afraid that my hypothesis will stand.

You keep saying that my guide only contains instructions on how to find rings and use mining equipment, which isn't the case (it's called "visual guide" for a reason).

I does seem like you've missed the section called "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly", where I present some of the asteroid captures I used in order to establish my glow hypothesis (which has worked for me and others).

I urge you to compare the glow intensity from those asteroids to the glow intensity of all those asteroids you checked.

I bet that your "bright bright" asteroids are actually what I call "Evil asteroids" in my guide.

Fissure asteroids look "bright bright bright bright bright"... just "bright bright" isn't enough.
That's what I've been trying to tell you all along.

It would also be interesting to know what kind of monitor you're using.
There's a chance our monitors display color and intensity differently (although the relative differences in asteroid glow intensity should still be present).


- By "dry" hotspot I mean ANY hotspot where fissure asteroids are hard to find.

For instance, during my first forays, I mined pristine metallic hotspots in Delkar 7 (and other
planets in that same system).

Total waste of time, those hotspots were dry, I only found a mere handful fissure asteroids in 9 hours, which led me to post threads about fissure asteroids being ridiculously scarce (kind of what you're doing now).

Then, instead of stubbornly clinging to my assumptions (based on only 9 hours of
mining in Delkar), I decided to adopt the "scientific approach" that I described above.

That made me realize that my early assumptions were indeed wrong, I was simply mining in
the wrong places, without actually knowing how to identify fissure asteroids based on pulse
wave analyser readings.

Again, I encourage you to do this before posting any further.
(Use the asteroid pics from my guide as a reference of glow intensity, please).


- Obviously, I can't be 100% certain of what's going on in hotspots, since I don't have access to
the source code.
So, sure, if you're asking for the specific logic behind hotspot mechanics, nobody here can
provide an answer to that. You'll need to ask FDevs about this.


- Finally, not being able to find profitable markets for rare minerals in-game is indeed a problem.
I agree with you on that one.

[[BKM]Harry]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από McKE:

Let me start by thanking people who engaged in discussion on this. I apologize for the clear frustration, but much of my concerns were not alleviated.

I agree with you that its quite bonkers and very backward, The pulse wave analyser was in no way designed to make it simple, a better implementation would have been to use a larger spectrum of colours, Sure some are 100% definite roids with fissures.

And why make a roid even glow remotely yellow if its just got surface deposits of liquid oxygen?

Not being able to reliably find prices and sell points in game is nonsensical.

I can fire millions of surface scanner probes at zero cost that can map and analyse entire planets but i need a 1T limpit to tell me whats in a little rock.

Without the use of external websites mining is definitely a completely absurd task to undertake.