Imperial Slaves

[Gamatech]

Hi all o7

I've seen a few small discussions on Imperial slaves, but they always boil down to a simple statement.

"it's legal slavery, it's bad and Imperials should feel bad!". No part of that is helpful nor informative.

I've done a bit more reading on the subject though, and I'm now questioning the whole concept.

Imperial slaves, at least by the books, are made up entirely of volunteers. Imperials give themselves into slavery to pay off debts, flee their homes as refugees, or otherwise take advantage of what the Empire calls a "safety net" for life. It's something designed to provide Imperial citizens with a backup plan if life deals them a bad hand, and helps them to get back on their feet after a fixed term.

As an imperial slave you hold your honour and are entitled to respect. You are provided with food, water and a roof over your head. Your family is taken care of and hours worked by children is extremely restrictive. Said children are given an education with luxuries, and the skills you learn and employ during your fixed time as a slave can be used as qualifications to find work afterwards.

Obviously this is all on paper, and there are those out there who abuse the system (taking people against their will, not abiding by regulations, mistreating their slaves etc). But by the books, it doesn't sound half as bad as some die hard Federals make it out to be. Even in the case of those abusers, the Empire seems to be taking a fair number of measures to bring them to justice. They even compensate the (ex)slaves. There seems to be a huge difference between slaves and Imperial slaves.

What do you guys think? Agree/disagree? Maybe there's something I'm missing? I'd love to hear opinions on the subject. The big points for me are:

1) It's voluntary

2) Your honour, human rights, and entitlement to respect is maintained

3) Your family is well taken care of

4) It's an agreed fixed-term contract


*EDIT*

I just found an intriguing video from the devs. It's from the horses mouth, the creator's intentions of Imperial Slave lore, nothing close to propaganda.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=237&v=yrv3yC3wrg8

[troika]

It's slavery. If people are volunteering to be enslaved then you have to question their motives and the underlying market forces driving them to such extremes.

[Personnage non Joueur]

That's pretty much Imperial slavery, its just another occupation, you give up some of your rights to guarantee survival and your honor. It's also still better working conditions then federal citizens have.

[Hard Rooster]

If you only have one choice, is it a choice? The word volluntary in that context is a bit...misleading.

[JetLaGGed]

Originally posted by Hard Rooster:

If you only have one choice, is it a choice? The word volluntary in that context is a bit...misleading.

You can choose to starve to death. No matter what you always have a choice. Indenture is probably preferable, which biases the choice a bit, but at the end of the day its still a choice.

[Hard Rooster]

Originally posted by KS3.JetLaGGed:

Originally posted by Hard Rooster:

If you only have one choice, is it a choice? The word volluntary in that context is a bit...misleading.

You can choose to starve to death. No matter what you always have a choice. Indenture is probably preferable, which biases the choice a bit, but at the end of the day its still a choice.

That's called a false choice, or Hobson's Choice. Since death isn't really an choice anyone would choose in any scenario, it's not really a choice. It's not like it's a real dilema, unless you're suicidal in which case you're mentally ill and need help. It's not a choice between two equivalent options either, aka Morton's Fork.

You really only need to put yourself in that position. If you're being offered life long slavery, no matter how "honorable" when the only alternative is death, but what you want to choose is freedom, even a the expense of poverty...can you really say you've been given choice?

[Dolphin Bottlenose]

Originally posted by Hard Rooster:

Since death isn't really an choice anyone would choose in any scenario, it's not really a choice.

Ever heard of kamikaze, or suicide?..

[Preacher403]

Originally posted by Hard Rooster:

Originally posted by KS3.JetLaGGed:

You can choose to starve to death. No matter what you always have a choice. Indenture is probably preferable, which biases the choice a bit, but at the end of the day its still a choice.

That's called a false choice, or Hobson's Choice. Since death isn't really an choice anyone would choose in any scenario, it's not really a choice. It's not like it's a real dilema, unless you're suicidal in which case you're mentally ill and need help. It's not a choice between two equivalent options either, aka Morton's Fork.

You really only need to put yourself in that position. If you're being offered life long slavery, no matter how "honorable" when the only alternative is death, but what you want to choose is freedom, even a the expense of poverty...can you really say you've been given choice?

It's not life long, it's for a fixed period, length of period determined by the amount of debt that needs to be offset. It's the equivelent of indentured servitude, only hopefully without the perpetual debt that became a feature of that.

Can't say I like slavery, but given the described conditions of Imperial slavery it's better than pure poverty.

[Shifter]

Originally posted by Hard Rooster:

Originally posted by KS3.JetLaGGed:

You can choose to starve to death. No matter what you always have a choice. Indenture is probably preferable, which biases the choice a bit, but at the end of the day its still a choice.

That's called a false choice, or Hobson's Choice. Since death isn't really an choice anyone would choose in any scenario, it's not really a choice. It's not like it's a real dilema, unless you're suicidal in which case you're mentally ill and need help. It's not a choice between two equivalent options either, aka Morton's Fork.

You really only need to put yourself in that position. If you're being offered life long slavery, no matter how "honorable" when the only alternative is death, but what you want to choose is freedom, even a the expense of poverty...can you really say you've been given choice?

I dont see why you think no one would choose death over anything else. didnt people in fuedal japan commit suicide all the time to retain their honor or whatever? they chose death over being dishonored because they valued honor more than life. just because you personally believe that death is worse than every single scenerio imaginable doesnt mean everyone else does.

[Agony_Aunt]

Need to be careful of the imperial propoganda there. Its true in most core imperial systems Imperial Slaves are treated fairly and with respect. But in fringe or less well governed systems, Imperial Slaves often get treated little better than regular slaves.

[Hard Rooster]

Originally posted by Shifter:

I dont see why you think no one would choose death over anything else. didnt people in fuedal japan commit suicide all the time to retain their honor or whatever? they chose death over being dishonored because they valued honor more than life. just because you personally believe that death is worse than every single scenerio imaginable doesnt mean everyone else does.

I didn't say anything about it being worse than every single scenario imaginable. And you're missing the point. The whole concept of choice is inseperable from the concept of freedom. Without getting too philisophical about how we are all slaves to our own physical bodies, one must draw a line somewhere at what constitutes freedom. It's generally accepted that freedom is nothing more than free choice, or free will.

Maybe I can articulate my view another way. An Imperial Slaver comes along, finds a refugee in dire straights, and offers the refugee food, shetler, clothing, honor and whatever else, in exchange for something of the slavers choosing. Now, the slaver obviously has the power to just rescue and set the refugee free, but is using his power to limit the refugee's options. (I could draw a lot of corrolaries to modern society, but that's another, really dirty topic)

This is hardly a noble action, and it's hard to argue that the refugee in this scenario has any real choice. Making the assumption the refugee wants to live, and will certainly die if they stay, the only option left is to become a slave. That's not choice. And if the refugee has come to the determination that death is not preferable, then you don't get to say that death is an option, and therefore a choice, simply because you think it should be. To say they could simply choose death is callous. But then again, you have to be callous to be a slaver, so there is that...

[Dolphin Bottlenose]

Originally posted by Hard Rooster:

And if the refugee has come to the determination that death is not preferable, then you don't get to say that death is an option, and therefore a choice, simply because you think it should be.

Preferable or not doesn't define a choice. If you prefer not to do something doesn't make it any less of a choice. If you can do it, or can avoid doing it - it's the choice you make.

Some managers were jumping out of high windows, when their company went bust. They could have taken a low-wage job and kept living, or could even live on streets, as some others did. That's precisely the choice everybody of them made.

[Swans]

Originally posted by POEX Gamatech:

Hi all o7


1) It's voluntary

2) Your honour, human rights, and entitlement to respect is maintained

3) Your family is well taken care of

4) It's an agreed fixed-term contract

It's capitalism. I don't have an issue with that in my real life, I therefore happily trade Imperial Slaves in ED. No one gets something for nothing in this universe!

[Gamatech]

I just found an intriguing video from the devs. It's from the horses mouth, the creator's intentions of Imperial Slave lore, nothing close to propaganda.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=237&v=yrv3yC3wrg8

I also don't believe that mistreatment of slaves would be as common as one may first think. The Imperials put as much emphasis on honour and status as the Klingons do. Mistreating owned slaves is extremely deplorable in Imperial society, I don't believe many slave owners would consider mistreating them worth the risk even before punishment is considered.

[Fork_Q2]

Originally posted by Scribbles:

It's slavery. If people are volunteering to be enslaved then you have to question their motives and the underlying market forces driving them to such extremes.

This, I have no doubt that the likes of Denton Patreus or Zemina Torval use their powers in the Imperial Senate to make it easier to trap people into crushing poverty, and then offer slavery as a way out. And people here are praising them for offering that option?

Any work you do, you ought to to have the right to quit it. The offer could be an lie, you could be misrepresented, or you simply changed your mind. Imperial Slavery is better than the regular form of slavery, but it's still terrible because the only way out before contract is through suicide, or the slim chance of a rescue.

[funkynutz]

It's not slavery, it's just an unfortunate choice of words... It's more like community service/working off your debts.

Unless you're selling them on the black market or shipping them around for the Feds, then you're just as bad as someone moving regular slaves.