WTF Battle System/AI?

[Griever]

I just got to the Lamia boss on hard difficulty and I can't keep all of my party members alive no matter what I try ;_;

- Bosses always aggro to the weakest party member and never change target (yay)
- Party member AI can't defend or sidestep well enough even with strategy on all out survival/don't attack
- Hard to keep weakest party member alive with all party members set to survival/don't attack due to not enough SC to stun lock
- Other party member (Sorey + 1 for armatization, 1 weakest and 1 other) dies if set to survival/balanced to help stun and keep the weakest party member alive because they derp the ♥♥♥♥ out on Lamia's close-range AoE that's (basically?) an instant kill by refusing to block/step/move out of the way
- Playing as weakest character and letting the other party members fight is even harder because they constantly leave armatization and takes hits along with the same "Let's sit in boss's insta-death AoE" edit: Leaving armatization was probably due to strategy settings, but still not really a viable option

I haven't played a Tales game in many years, but were the battle systems and AI always this bloody horrible?

/rant

[Griever]

Gave it a few more tries and was able to stun lock her very easily by constantly going in and out of armatization. Yippe.

[Simon]

It is more like the bad explanation plus the bad mechanic which exist in this game. Notice there is this SC bar in the Menu? (Not the one inside the battle) it is the one that decreases each time you complete a battle. Keeping the value high is recommended because that would increase your AI performance in battles. They also recover SC faster in battle. Lower SC mean that they will react poorly in battle... Like they will attack less often. Doen't react even when an enemy is attacking and so on.... They were tired from all those battles. Eats snacks or herbs or sleep at inns to recover SC.

[Griever]

While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the enemy and ally AIs are terrible. Boss will still always target your weakest and your allies will still ignore the AoE arte.

[KomdivCCCP]

LOL, yeah the AI is rеtarded in this game. Tell them to attack and they will die like a flies, tell them to watch their health and they will just stand and do nothing.

[paugus]

Originally posted by Griever:

While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the enemy and ally AIs are terrible. Boss will still always target your weakest and your allies will still ignore the AoE arte.

I don't see how a boss targetting your weakest ally makes them a terrible AI. Sounds like they're kicking your butt pretty good. Learn to exploit weaknesses and keep combos going?

[TheBlueFox]

There's a feature in the game that lets you give your allies 4 commands on the fly. Focus attacks/Spread out and Charge forward / focus on defense.

On a controller, this is used with the right stick. Often times you'll have to give the order Focus on Defense to make your allies back away. They immediately stop what they're doing and try to defend, backstep, and heal. Then hit Charge forward and they go back into attack mode.

Also, Go into the strategy menu and select "Attack at distance" for your spellcasters so they don't waste time in melee. I often have Mikleo and Lilah do this and they cast spells very frequently

[Griever]

Originally posted by paugus:

I don't see how a boss targetting your weakest ally makes them a terrible AI. Sounds like they're kicking your butt pretty good. Learn to exploit weaknesses and keep combos going?

Have you even played Zestiria enough or, hell, an RPG before? That's the most ignorant comment I've seen in a while.

Bosses will target your weakest party member and never switch target; 100% of attacks during boss battles will be focused on that single character. You know the main way to recharge SC during battle, right...?

FWIW, normal strategies would work if it weren't for allies ignoring the AoE. Because they ignore that I had to put them all on keep distance/survival/don't attack which makes keeping combos going and locking the boss very difficult. If you read the OP you would probably know that already.

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

There's a feature in the game that lets you give your allies 4 commands on the fly. Focus attacks/Spread out and Charge forward / focus on defense.

On a controller, this is used with the right stick. Often times you'll have to give the order Focus on Defense to make your allies back away. They immediately stop what they're doing and try to defend, backstep, and heal. Then hit Charge forward and they go back into attack mode.

Also, Go into the strategy menu and select "Attack at distance" for your spellcasters so they don't waste time in melee. I often have Mikleo and Lilah do this and they cast spells very frequently

Yeah, I was making use of all of that and tried most combinations ;_; A single hit from the Lamia would do ~50% of the party member's HP.


edit: Just to clear a few things up: This is by no means anywhere near an impossible fight, just stupid AI. I do boss battles without using items and no KOs simply because that's a restriction I've put on myself. As I found out, there are ways to lock the boss.

[TheBlueFox]

Gimme a bit of info:

What is your current level
What is the level of the boss

The game is not balanced to be played on Hard, Intense, or Chaos on the first playthrough. It mechanically does not support it and I could get into why if you're really curious.

You are currently TWO stages above the normal, this means that enemies levels are boosted two stages, and the boss's attacks come faster and more frequent. (The higher the difficulty the faster the bosses recover SC and the more often they attack.)

In order to offset this, you need to utilize the skill system of the game. Of which you will find is difficult on your first run. For bosses with heavy hitting aoes, you can try to raise your Normal/Arte Defense. Stack 4 of them and it gives you combo +1, making it easier to combo as well as give you a nice defensive bonus of 20%

[Griever]

Looks like I was 13-14 at that point
Boss name is Echidna and is level 13

Yeah, I realize hard is basically the cutoff for anything managable on first playthrough boss fights without intimate knowledge of boss strategies/battle system/gear & skill grinding. I'll admit I'm definitely lacking in all of those, skills/fusion probably being the most important that I'm currently lacking.

I just find it a bit annoying that the AI is so hard to work with without tanking (level and skills/gear) and/or constant locking. I suspect this boss was just badly done for where it is in story no matter the difficulty. Guides appear to warn about her rather powerful hits that will likely kill party members.

[TheBlueFox]

I totally agree with you. The AI is difficult and unweildly to work with. To this day I have only gotten 125 hits on a combo, I can't hit the 150 mark because timing with my allies is damn near impossible, and this is WITH all the abilities and high hit abilities and mystic artes.

I have never beaten a boss on Hard+ without 5+ deaths, most (if not all) from the AI.

The AI takes working WITH, you have to kind of...figure that they're gonna die, because it's very hard to gear up SIX people with the time it takes just to gear up 2.

[paugus]

Originally posted by Griever:

Originally posted by paugus:

I don't see how a boss targetting your weakest ally makes them a terrible AI.

Have you even played Zestiria enough or, hell, an RPG before? That's the most ignorant comment I've seen in a while.

Bosses will target your weakest party member and never switch target; 100% of attacks during boss battles will be focused on that single character. You know the main way to recharge SC during battle, right...?

edit: Just to clear a few things up: This is by no means anywhere near an impossible fight, just stupid AI. I do boss battles without using items and no KOs simply because that's a restriction I've put on myself. As I found out, there are ways to lock the boss.

For starters, yes Griever, I've played several thousand hours worth of RPGs in my lifetime, and about 50 worth of Zestiria, so good job, you topped me in the "ignorant comment" category without even breaking a sweat!

Second, you're wrong. They don't target one person forever. There's no other way to say it, you're just wrong on that point. There are quite a few ways to recharge SC. Like not attacking for two seconds.

You're right on one thing, it's not an impossible fight. You're just unfamiliar with the tactics and mechanics of the game, and you're boo-hooing about it being a terrible AI instead of just admitting your failure and striving for improvement. The AI isn't perfect, but a boss targetting a weak party member makes perfect sense, and the fact this can happen doesn't justify your griping.

"WHAT?! I LOST!? THIS AI IS TERRIBLE!" -you

[Griever]

Originally posted by paugus:

For starters, yes Griever, I've played several thousand hours worth of RPGs in my lifetime, and about 50 worth of Zestiria, so good job, you topped me in the "ignorant comment" category without even breaking a sweat!

Your profile is private and you still appear to have missed the point, mate.

Originally posted by paugus:

Second, you're wrong. They don't target one person forever. There's no other way to say it, you're just wrong on that point. There are quite a few ways to recharge SC. Like not attacking for two seconds.

It may not be this way on every boss fight, but the most I got her to do was look my way for a split second. There does appear to be an ability to increase aggro while defending, though I didn't notice I had that unlocked at the time and didn't try it.

The time required to defend and recharge is time the boss has to kill your party with 1-2 attacks and then it's gg. The same applies to casting BG healing.

Originally posted by paugus:

You're right on one thing, it's not an impossible fight. You're just unfamiliar with the tactics and mechanics of the game, and you're boo-hooing about it being a terrible AI instead of just admitting your failure and striving for improvement. The AI isn't perfect, but a boss targetting a weak party member makes perfect sense, and the fact this can happen doesn't justify your griping.

Quick Google search appears to show that the AI is one of the worst parts of the game, so I'm not alone. This also proves that I'm not misremembering and previous Tales games weren't this bad.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean there isn't a problem. If you think the AI is good or even fine for an RPG then I pity you. AIs shouldn't hold you back to the point of being a severe handicap.

[paugus]

Originally posted by Griever:

Your profile is private and you still appear to have missed the point, mate.

It may not be this way on every boss fight, but the most I got her to do was look my way for a split second. There does appear to be an ability to increase aggro while defending, though I didn't notice I had that unlocked at the time and didn't try it.

The time required to defend and recharge is time the boss has to kill your party with 1-2 attacks and then it's gg.

Quick Google search appears to show that the AI is one of the worst parts of the game, so I'm not alone. This also proves that I'm not misremembering and previous Tales games weren't this bad.

Jesus Christ, where to start. I guess at the "nuh uh, your profile is private, you've never played an rpg I proofed it" Talk about missing the point... I've beaten the main story of Zestiria, whether or not I've satisfied your SUPER STEEP verification requirements.

You're then gonna go on to admit you're wrong about boss AI, that you've barely figured out any of the game's mechanics, and all that something needs to be 'proven' is a 'quick google search' Do you know what confirmation bias is?

Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Vesperia both suffered from many of the same AI problems as Zestiria. You are certainly 'misremembering' if you think otherwise. Party members would stand there getting hitlocked until they died and do seemingly little to defend themselves. Bosses would spam ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ AoEs that would make you grumble angrily. Then, you'd just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ figure it out and quit complaining and lashing out like a damn baby.

[Griever]

You seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. I've explained all that I've needed to, so I will no longer reply to you.

FWIW, AIs in previous Tales games definitely had their issues, but they weren't nearly at this level of crippling you. The last Tales game I played was also Abyss and that was about 10 years ago now.

[paugus]

Originally posted by Griever:

FWIW, AIs in previous Tales games definitely had their issues, but they weren't nearly at this level of crippling you. The last Tales game I played was also Abyss and that was about 10 years ago now.

FWIW, I've played four Tales games within the last 5 years, each multiple times through. Most recently, two and a half playthroughs of Vesperia. You're wrong. Maybe go play one and get some perspective rather than talking nonsense about your decade old memories.

And again, more weird hypocrisy from you, this time attacking my reading comprehension? Lemme sum up my main, overarching point for you in simple English then.

Complaining about the AI while having little mastery of the actual mechanics of the game, and furthermore blaming it for your inability or unwillingness to learn and apply any of the various strategies or mechanics is a load of hot garbage.

Or if that was too complicated, try this: The AI isn't good, but it isn't the reason you're bad.