Breeding Question

[Nymn]

So im messing around with breeding shadowmanes and trying to learn how mutations work exactly and i had a question. Im trying to do mutation stacking and i got a melee mutation on a male shadow on the patrilineal ancestry line. so i added it to the breeding and kept going. So i got a second melee mutation which kept the first mutation but it was on a female so i figured i could transfer over the mutation to a male which i did but now the mutaions are on the Matrilineal ancestry line. Making it 2/20 0/20 now is it normal to keep them mutations on a male with the female ancestry line or no since i was told to keep females unmutated for more breeding and stack them on the males? The ancestry lines kinda confuse me and how they work not sure what to do. Here is a screenshot of the male x2 melee mutation

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2969156703

[Sans]

Originally posted by Nymn:

So im messing around with breeding shadowmanes and trying to learn how mutations work exactly and i had a question. Im trying to do mutation stacking and i got a melee mutation on a male shadow on the patrilineal ancestry line. so i added it to the breeding and kept going. So i got a second melee mutation which kept the first mutation but it was on a female so i figured i could transfer over the mutation to a male which i did but now the mutaions are on the Matrilineal ancestry line. Making it 2/20 0/20 now is it normal to keep them mutations on a male with the female ancestry line or no since i was told to keep females unmutated for more breeding and stack them on the males? The ancestry lines kinda confuse me and how they work not sure what to do. Here is a screenshot of the male x2 melee mutation

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2969156703

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXnAQnEu6I

[Nymn]

Originally posted by Sans:

Originally posted by Nymn:

So im messing around with breeding shadowmanes and trying to learn how mutations work exactly and i had a question. Im trying to do mutation stacking and i got a melee mutation on a male shadow on the patrilineal ancestry line. so i added it to the breeding and kept going. So i got a second melee mutation which kept the first mutation but it was on a female so i figured i could transfer over the mutation to a male which i did but now the mutaions are on the Matrilineal ancestry line. Making it 2/20 0/20 now is it normal to keep them mutations on a male with the female ancestry line or no since i was told to keep females unmutated for more breeding and stack them on the males? The ancestry lines kinda confuse me and how they work not sure what to do. Here is a screenshot of the male x2 melee mutation

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2969156703

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXnAQnEu6I

i have been watching a lot of videos on it most of the stuff i slowly start to understand there is just a few small random things that are not clicking yet but ill watch that video again and see if i notice them talk about my question i asked about

edit: I think i get it now after a few testing so the ancestory line changes alot by who passes down the mutations so it only applies to the recent breeding of that mom or dad and when you switch up the mutations on one side it changes over on the next breeding

[Sans]

I bred a shadowmane that was 20/20 paternal 40/20 maternal with 20 mutations into attack, 20 into stamina, and 20 into hit points.

[william_es]

The mutation counter is always going to be the combination of the left side numbers from both mother and father. The right side will stay 20.

In Sans example above, 20/20 mated to a 40/20 means the offspring will have 60/20 (it will show as 20/20 on one side, 40/20 on the other, but it's really 60/20 when it breeds the next generation).


The mutation counter does not mean that the offspring will have mutations.

Every mutation just adds +2 to a stat, increases the mutation counter by one, and adds a random color to a random region.

And it's the total value of the _stat_ that gets passed on to the babies. (if it gets passed on at all, there's always a 45% chance the baby will inherit the lower stat, which is usually the unmutated number without bonus levels).


The mutation counter is just a mechanism for turning off it's chance to get _more_ mutations. Once it reaches 20/20 of higher, no more mutation rolls for it. the reason that everyone obsesses about the mutation counter in breeding videos, is that the first 20 mutations are _easier_ to get. It' still possible for a mating pair to get mutations (as long as one side is below 20/20), but the chance goes down by a HUGE %. Massive drop in chances. Stacking mutations past 20 in a single stat is super endgame stuff when you have nothing better to do. You will discard a staggering number of babies as rejects trying to get more mutations past 20.


In Sans example, one of the shadowmanes has 20 stacked melee mutations, meaning it's stat is +40 levels higher then the other shadowmane. BUT, It's still possible for babies to get the NON mutated stat, which is the base (without the +40 levels).

It could do that for all three stats, and the baby is a complete dud missing +120 extra levels from the mutations.

In that example, the stats should be identical with the unmutated baseline females they started breeding with...

but regardless of whether it has the mutated stats or not, it's mutation counter will still say 20/20 on one side, 40/20 on the other when you look at the baby. When it's bred, those numbers would be combined into 60/20 on it's side on future offspring (and also combine with the mutation counter from the other side of the mating pair... but the other side should NEVER have mutations.... always be 00/20 unmutated).

Always look at the actual stats of the mutated attribute. Don't automatically assume because it says the mutation counter is a certain number that it means it has mutated stats with bonus levels.

[Sans]

Originally posted by william_es:

The mutation counter is always going to be the combination of the left side numbers from both mother and father. The right side will stay 20.

In Sans example above, 20/20 mated to a 40/20 means the offspring will have 60/20 (it will show as 20/20 on one side, 40/20 on the other, but it's really 60/20 when it breeds the next generation).


The mutation counter does not mean that the offspring will have mutations.

Every mutation just adds +2 to a stat, increases the mutation counter by one, and adds a random color to a random region.

And it's the total value of the _stat_ that gets passed on to the babies. (if it gets passed on at all, there's always a 45% chance the baby will inherit the lower stat, which is usually the unmutated number without bonus levels).


The mutation counter is just a mechanism for turning off it's chance to get _more_ mutations. Once it reaches 20/20 of higher, no more mutation rolls for it. the reason that everyone obsesses about the mutation counter in breeding videos, is that the first 20 mutations are _easier_ to get. It' still possible for a mating pair to get mutations (as long as one side is below 20/20), but the chance goes down by a HUGE %. Massive drop in chances. Stacking mutations past 20 in a single stat is super endgame stuff when you have nothing better to do. You will discard a staggering number of babies as rejects trying to get more mutations past 20.


In Sans example, one of the shadowmanes has 20 stacked melee mutations, meaning it's stat is +40 levels higher then the other shadowmane. BUT, It's still possible for babies to get the NON mutated stat, which is the base (without the +40 levels).

It could do that for all three stats, and the baby is a complete dud missing +120 extra levels from the mutations.

In that example, the stats should be identical with the unmutated baseline females they started breeding with...

but regardless of whether it has the mutated stats or not, it's mutation counter will still say 20/20 on one side, 40/20 on the other when you look at the baby. When it's bred, those numbers would be combined into 60/20 on it's side on future offspring (and also combine with the mutation counter from the other side of the mating pair... but the other side should NEVER have mutations.... always be 00/20 unmutated).

Always look at the actual stats of the mutated attribute. Don't automatically assume because it says the mutation counter is a certain number that it means it has mutated stats with bonus levels.

It took a long time to get them that way, many babies had to be sacrificed in the process :( But in the end they were complete monsters.

[Liralen]

Originally posted by Nymn:

So im messing around with breeding shadowmanes and trying to learn how mutations work exactly and i had a question. Im trying to do mutation stacking and i got a melee mutation on a male shadow on the patrilineal ancestry line. so i added it to the breeding and kept going. So i got a second melee mutation which kept the first mutation but it was on a female so i figured i could transfer over the mutation to a male which i did but now the mutaions are on the Matrilineal ancestry line. Making it 2/20 0/20 now is it normal to keep them mutations on a male with the female ancestry line or no since i was told to keep females unmutated for more breeding and stack them on the males? The ancestry lines kinda confuse me and how they work not sure what to do. Here is a screenshot of the male x2 melee mutation

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2969156703

In my experience, whether the mutation is attributed to the paternal or maternal side seems to be random, irrelevant, and works itself out eventually. That is, the desired mutation is often attributed to the babies Mom, who has no mutations at all.

But I've only done mutation breeding up to 20 mutations in a single stat. I've never tried to breed for 41 mutations in a single stat. See for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ae0XiuxWTI

Ignore the part about the Smart Breeding app, which you probably don't need.

[🦊 Hermit]

The mutations are currently appearing on the mother's side, because it was the mother who passed them down to the baby. But this baby is male, so when he passes them down to his offspring, the two mutations will swap back onto the male side, and the clean female whom he is breeding with will keep the female side clean again.

And extra (in this case, third) mutation may appear on either the paternal or maternal sides - that depends on which of the parent's stats got mutated when the mutation occurs. But those will be shuffled over to one side when that baby breeds, and passes them down to it's children.

[សួស្តី]

The simple answer for mutation stacking is only keep male mutations in the stat you are stacking, rinse and repeat.

You breed your breeder male with zero mutation females (wild) until you get a new mutation in the stat you are looking for and the sex of the dino baby you keep will only be male, making it your new breeder. If you get a female baby with the mutation, kill it.

The sole reason I keep mutations on female babies is to create a all stat breeder set with all the stats I want to keep together in a male and female breeder set. Otherwise my breeder males only have one stat I care about on each breeder. I've bred 255 points in one stat which locks the stat doing mutation stacking.

Breed stacking requires you to understand that unless you make a negative ancestry breeder, you are limited to 20 mutations combined on male and female or 10 each before they stop getting mutes. Which is why we only keep the male and breed that breeder with up to 253 points in one stat times a wild female. We are using the female side of the mutation matrix to produce mutations for the line but are putting those mutes on the male side each time by only keeping the male breeder baby. Without a negative ancestry breeder after a male side gets 10+ mutes it is locked and we are only getting 50% of the possible mutations out of our breeding project each time that is possible if we breed with 0 mutation females.

Yes we can breed that mutation stat from a female back to a male to make a new breeder male, breeders stacking mutes won't waste the time. Clone more breeder 0 mute females, and you will get the mutation on a male before you even finish raising that female mutation.

[william_es]

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

The simple answer for mutation stacking is only keep male mutations in the stat you are stacking, rinse and repeat.

You breed your breeder male with zero mutation females (wild) until you get a new mutation in the stat you are looking for and the sex of the dino baby you keep will only be male, making it your new breeder. If you get a female baby with the mutation, kill it.

So many whys...

Why are you breeding against wild females? to get zero stats?
Why are you killing the females with a mutation? what a waste. What an incredible waste. just flip the gender.

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

Breed stacking requires you to understand that unless you make a negative ancestry breeder, you are limited to 20 mutations combined on male and female or 10 each before they stop getting mutes.

Why would the females have any mutations at all?

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

we are only getting 50% of the possible mutations out of our breeding project each time that is possible if we breed with 0 mutation females.

It's way less then 50%. When a mutation is triggered, the game makes another "roll" to see which side it goes falls on: mother or fathers. If the father has 20 mutations or more, it's discarded. The only thing that explain 90% of your post is the fact you don't know that it randomizes where the mutation falls.

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

Yes we can breed that mutation stat from a female back to a male to make a new breeder male, breeders stacking mutes won't waste the time. Clone more breeder 0 mute females, and you will get the mutation on a male before you even finish raising that female mutation.

You assume every first time breeder (like the OP) has unlocked cloning tek? This option may simply be unavailable. Telling them to clone breeding females is a "let them eat cake" response.

I can only assume you're used to playing on officials.

In unofficial land, we just change the server settings to make babies breed faster. Or you can install mods. There's a mod that makes special kibbles, and one of those kibbles instantly flips the gender of the offspring. Some people don't have years to spend creating pointlessly powerful dinos. stats of 250+ are only useful for PVP on officials. They would be pointlessly OP against the basegame content.

I guess in a couple months, it will be a moot point when all the officlals get shut down.

[សួស្តី]

Originally posted by william_es:

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

The simple answer for mutation stacking is only keep male mutations in the stat you are stacking, rinse and repeat.

You breed your breeder male with zero mutation females (wild) until you get a new mutation in the stat you are looking for and the sex of the dino baby you keep will only be male, making it your new breeder. If you get a female baby with the mutation, kill it.

So many whys...

Why are you breeding against wild females? to get zero stats?
Why are you killing the females with a mutation? what a waste. What an incredible waste. just flip the gender.

Mutation stacking is the topic, which I have 7+ years of doing successfully. The way I beat all competition was creating a negative ancestry breeder and breeding that times wild stat zero mutation females. In your world you can tame a few hundred females or have them cloned, up to you. For every 100 wild stat females you will get a reliable group of mutations averaging at about 6% per 100. We know that when the male gets over 10 mutations it locks getting mutes and the ONLY way to progress that breed line is to breed that male times a female with less then 10 mutes. Once both sides get 10 mutes, the entire mutation line locks. Therefor we breed our breeder male times zero mutation females so we get 50% of the possible mutations on that breeding project. If you understand what a negative ancestry breeder is then you know why we upgrade our breeder male to a negative breeder and breed that times wild females to get 100% of the possible mutations on a line. A negative breeder will always have less then zero mutations thus getting maximum allowable mutations on that side of the breeding equation while retaining the mutations for the breed line.

Flipping the gender from a female baby with the mutation will add weeks to your breed project each time you do it. Breeders establish providence with their breed ancestry list proving their work to buyers, resellers and other breeders. When you breed back a female mute to your male breed line your ancestry gets jumbled and unreliable as proof/ownership of your breed line.

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

Breed stacking requires you to understand that unless you make a negative ancestry breeder, you are limited to 20 mutations combined on male and female or 10 each before they stop getting mutes.

Why would the females have any mutations at all?

Breeding a 10+ mutation male to a wild female gets the new mutation solely on the female side of the ancestry. Since we only keep the males with the mutation, when it is bred back times wild it adds the mutation to the male side of the ancestry on the new baby. Maybe you are asking the wrong question as I stated I do not keep female babies with a mutation when breeding, it is a waste of time and corrupts the ancestry of the male breeder when mating it back.

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

we are only getting 50% of the possible mutations out of our breeding project each time that is possible if we breed with 0 mutation females.

It's way less then 50%. When a mutation is triggered, the game makes another "roll" to see which side it goes falls on: mother or fathers. If the father has 20 mutations or more, it's discarded. The only thing that explain 90% of your post is the fact you don't know that it randomizes where the mutation falls.

The game doesn't make a 'roll' on breeding a locked male breeder to a wild stat female. It will 100% of the time be a mutation on the female side of the ancestry as the male one locks at 10. Once you try what I posted you will realize I am 100% correct in everything I have stated.

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

Yes we can breed that mutation stat from a female back to a male to make a new breeder male, breeders stacking mutes won't waste the time. Clone more breeder 0 mute females, and you will get the mutation on a male before you even finish raising that female mutation.

You assume every first time breeder (like the OP) has unlocked cloning tek? This option may simply be unavailable. Telling them to clone breeding females is a "let them eat cake" response.

Should I answer this or are you trolling me with this question?

I can only assume you're used to playing on officials.

Correct

In unofficial land, we just change the server settings to make babies breed faster. Or you can install mods. There's a mod that makes special kibbles, and one of those kibbles instantly flips the gender of the offspring. Some people don't have years to spend creating pointlessly powerful dinos. stats of 250+ are only useful for PVP on officials. They would be pointlessly OP against the basegame content.

I guess in a couple months, it will be a moot point when all the officlals get shut down.

I believe breeding on unofficial is a extreme waste of time as I can spawn any dino with admin commands. But I support unofficial play due to the mods greatly expanding what is possible in ark. Breeding on official is not pointlessly OP. Every dino we have maxed stats on can be defeated as is not omni powerful. Our 1285m 21880hp max gigas are melted by brute bosses, our max stat alpha rexes can be melted by island dragon, but with community effort we have found the right set of bred dinos and tactics for each boss. The point for mutation stacking breeders such as myself was to extend the game by helping the community with new mutations, colors and game tactics we lacked with basic dino spawns and new maps.

[william_es]

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

I believe breeding on unofficial is a extreme waste of time as I can spawn any dino with admin commands.

Just because people on unofficials _can_ use admin commands doesn't mean we do.

Plus, on many unofficials, only the owner/admins can use commands. The rest of the players are as powerless as people on unofficials.

Originally posted by Monkeyknife:

our max stat alpha rexes can be melted by island dragon,

Yesssss. That is because the dragon does 20% damage on each fireball. Flat percentage. Doesn't matter how much or how little health you take, you lose 1/5th of the health bar. Stacking health to 254 on health in that fight is an utter waste of time.

Dinos with 254 in a stat are completely unnecessary for beating pve content (like the bosses). I have rexes with just 20+ melee mutations, and 20+ health. Killed the alpha brood mother in 3 minutes. Took about 1600 damage on average. That's just with 20 mutations. How much more lopsided does it need to be? LOL.