The ultimate siege machine: Invalidates all defensive structures for 1.6k at nearly T0

[Creakit the Shark]

Just put 8 marine barracks on a blimp. Capture any and all defensive structures. The only thing I've found that gets close to countering it is pathing bugs.

Anti infantry weapons need a huge buff. The marines can just walk through flamethrower fire in the current meta and be fine.

Edit: Defensive structures in general are just in a TERRIBLE place right now. The best strategy is to just sell all of them. Not only do you no longer have to pay their upkeep, but you can stop paying for secret police too since without defenses you can easily retake any rioting cities.

If you're ever attacked, the best defense is to go on the counter offensive and simply takeover all of the opponents cities with cheep boarding spam. Then just retake your city (and demolish all the crappy defensive structures the enemy built) once they leave.

Edit2: Another problem is that you can juke out the AI too easily, and that they AI won't attack & counterattack nearly fast enough. They can't keep up with the attack rate of the player, so they never actually attack anything important, too busy retaking their own stuff.

[FourGreenFields]

I found gatlings to be quite effective against infantry, so check if those are better than flamers.

Also, flak. Those can shoot troops as well (after all, planes count as troops). Just modify the terrain so the enemy infantry has to climb through flak fire, the AoE will make short work of them.

Lastly, uncontrolable defences. The enemy can't send their troops from building to building then, but will be stuck in whatever building they board first.

[Creakit the Shark]

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

I found gatlings to be quite effective against infantry, so check if those are better than flamers.

Also, flak. Those can shoot troops as well (after all, planes count as troops). Just modify the terrain so the enemy infantry has to climb through flak fire, the AoE will make short work of them.

Lastly, uncontrolable defences. The enemy can't send their troops from building to building then, but will be stuck in whatever building they board first.

The problem isn't that I cannot counter boarders. The issue is that its trivializing the campaign against the AI. I'm destroying the AI with everything except research speed set to max difficulty with near zero resistance.

Defenses are just bad. I immediately sell all of mine. Terrible cost efficiency. Defenses locked behind tons of research that you'll never, ever get to before you lose the game if you're actually trying to build defenses.

The only viable strategy is, and has been since I played a year ago, to just spam cheep fast boarding ships and takeover the whole map at T0. This will remain the only strategy until defensive structures become at all viable, which they are not even close to in this state of the game.

[SapphireSage]

Yes, boarding is a very OP strategy which is unfortunately not only widely known about, but has also been true since I first got the game which was back in July 2015 it seems. So, I honestly wonder that with the knowledge having been known since so long ago that its still very much the case that boarding continues to be far and away the best conquest strategy in-game.

Boarding is OP in regular combat, but is *especially* strong in conquest for a few reasons.

1) The only thing that's remembered between battles are destroyed modules.

2) Ammo, coal, water, damaged modules, and most importantly crew are instantly replenished and repaired between battles.

3) Boarding occurs and is typically resolved very quickly, more quickly then it takes many weapons to fire more than a few times.

4) Captured ships are instantly declared lost at the end of a battle. Though if the boarding party loses the fight, it seems they don't actually keep the ships captured. (though there have been a couple cases where I did keep the ship.

5) The boarding party keeps captured ships in their Navy on a won battle.

You can combine 1, 2, 3, and 4 to form a powerful combo when outnumbered because you can move in, throw boarders at an enemy ship, let it resolve on a victory or failure, then flee the battle before taking sufficient damage to lose any modules for your ships meanwhile any enemy ships that have been captured are declared lost and destroyed. Then you can immediately reengage and continue the process to wear an enemy fleet down until the fight where you will win and keep the captured ships. In this way I was able to take out a fleet 9 ships strong with only 2 boarding ships with 1 marine barracks each early in the game. Something that I doubt would be possible for any other build as cheap as that.

Number 5 means that economically, Boarding ships are the only ship type in the game that can not only actively earn you money, but steal resources from the enemy from combat. When you successfully capture an enemy ship and win a fight, you get to keep the ship and then choose to either sell it(gives you money), throw it at the enemy(Using it as fodder paid by the enemy and damage both to and from ship only ultimately involves the enemy's investments), or keep it and use it regularly (meaning maintenance and repairs from boarders, but building cost paid for by enemy). This unique economic advantage more than greatly offsets the added maintenance costs of marine barracks.

This isn't including the combat and design advantages of boarding, namely that a boarding ship is free to eschew weapons in favor of stronger boarding, whereas a gunship has to sacrifice some things in its design in order to have a chance to defend against them making it more difficult to do their job. At least with the addition of planes and weapons that can shoot at boarders, you might be able to make a case of counter via defense in-depth with biplanes, gatling guns, and guard barracks together to counter boarding but this also sacrifices a fair amount of resources for all that.

Having a boarding ship that can capture buildings probably only helps with economics. I'd expect that at 1.6k you'd need to capture and sell around at least 8 buildings each to break even on cost not including maintenance, which might sound not great but is an advantage that only boarding can employ.

That's not to say that boarding is not the only viable strategy, there *are* other viable strategies. Rather its to say that boarding is so far superior and ahead of the other strategies that you're intentionally handicapping yourself majorly to not do it in a conquest game which will affect many players, like yourself.

I would like to note that there's a design philosophy that says "If given the chance, players will optimize fun out of a game" and its based around things like Civilizations old "Infinite City Sprawl" exploit that, while tedious, gave an extremely large amount of power.

Here's the article for reference: https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369

TLDR: This topic is basically an example of how one extremely good strategy removes choice by simply being far better than the other choices and how it can make a game boring by removing other choices regardless of how fun or boring it may be.

[Creakit the Shark]

You actually don't keep ships you boarded unless you get their whole navy anymore.

That's a pretty big nerf, but it's STILL the most powerful strategy anyway.

IMO they need to make defences practically free and with huge HP pools, and near immune to boarding.

[SapphireSage]

I thought that you got the ships you captured so long as you won the battle, but I could be mistaken. Still, if it is the case that you need to capture their current fleet for keepsies then that just means doing disengage and reengage tactic until the fleet is small enough that you'll be able to guarantee boarding and capture of the remaining ships to keep them.

Buildings used to have regular sailors a long time ago and boarding was even easier then. Soldiers, which are better at anti boarding then regular crew, were put into buildings in order to counter boarders but if you swing a big enough hammer, or in this case boarding ship...

Interestingly, Buildings are not allowed to use keels or bows to increase overall HP like how Airships and Landships can do. This also limits building weight since they can't use keels to raise the weight limit and so are forced to stay below the limit to maximize HP.

For stronger defenses, it'd be better to make use of Landships as they can carry a large amount of weight anyway, can slap on Keels/Bows to improve HP, can turn around meaning fliers can't as easily take advantage of weaker rears, and can travel between cities and aren't part of revolts.

[Creakit the Shark]

IMO the game is suppost to be about big battles, and the whole idea of revolts is against that. It makes you not build defences at all. Revolts should be removed.

Also stone armor is worse in every way than steel armor, and I didn't even know about the weight limit. It should defenitely be better.

[Muffinmilk]

Definitely don't overdo it either. Boarding is awesome, and should remain viable. Dragoon fortress forever. Glorious Grenadier your sacrifice will not be forgotten. The game can even revolve around boarding, it makes sense, just ask Master and Commander. It just can't be so OP that nothing else is even viable. As someone mentioned above, gatlings, flak, guards, especially in the right places, with multiple bridges, and combined with a sickbay or two ;), thanks un-boardable pirate ships for teaching me that. I send like 40-something grenadiers and they don't manage to capture the PIRATE FLAGSHIP (capture one and look at the build). The reason this works is because the boarder-horde will constantly go between the 3 well-placed bridges continually stop to fight crew. With 3 bridges and a couple of out-of-the-way sickbays keeping the crew coming back, and a good amount of guards to take the initial bite out of the boarding party, this can really whittle down a boarding party to the point where even if they DO capture your ship, they should be weakened to the point where you can RECAPTURE it with COUNTER-BOARDING.
Keep in mind PLANES CAN BE ORDERED TO TARGET ships that are about to board you, and biplanes especially WRECK boarding crews the moment they put their heads out. So they send grenadiers and hit the board-key once they are close. In that case, out-maneuver your opponent so they can't reach you in time to board. Have more bridges than them. Bombs and rockets can also kill a lot of boarders with a lucky shot. Have a good combination of propulsion and weight so you can break tethers. Keep those airplanes on them. Have guards on every ship that is going to be within your reach. Boarders are fairly heavy, so just fly higher than them and whittle them away with muskets and grenades. And yeah flak absolutely annhilates boarding parties and im pretty sure it targets them first as well... its the ultimate counter but it does take a while to tech so i think thats fair. Its definitely counterable, in multiplayer conquest, which i have been preparing for by annhilating the computer player with boarding tactics. Capture = destroy mechanic though im not sure I agree with. Like if you "FLEE" what does that really mean? You run away. In a real battle you would actually have to try to escape, and they would chase you. So you should have to make it to reserve. Which you do. But if you dont and you JUST PRESS FLEE they should get their ship back. Otherwise thats just way too cheap and exploity, or it just doesnt make any sense. THEY CAPTURED OUR SHIP AND RAN AWAY SO LETS KILL THESE TRAITOR CREW AND DESTROY THE SHIP ALL EVIDENCE OF OUR HUMILIATION IS GONE lol. Anyway... flee means flee. The boarders too should flee. If you want to get away with the ship, then you have to actually get away with it by moving it to reserve, which the enemy can try and thwart. Makes things a lot more interesting, maybe they actually shoot down their own ship rather than let you have it, or damage it so that repairs are necessary. Grounded ships used to be a thing, I agree with that, losing baloons and thus losing the ship sucked a lot, but it was pretty realistic. I mean that should really lead to whoever wins the battle getting that ship tbh... I think that should be how it is. Then you can get it back to base on rolling logs lol. Or bring up some new baloons. Repair-ships for on-the-go repairs? Please add this, t'would be awesome. Also refitting ships. More modules = more repair speed. Being attacked does not cancel on-the-go repairs unless you lose the battle. You better read this damnit lol. I'm putting a lot of love into this game right now. As I sit here waiting for hours for someone to join my conquest game. That reminds me I originally came to this discussion looking for the conquest group, if there is one. I really wanna play some serious competetive conquest matches with people, AI has gotten boring, to agree with original post. Friend me, message me, lets do this. I'll do the same. Let's make this game the next big thing. Help the poor lone soldier improve the multiplayer experience.

[Muffinmilk]

Couple more notes from my strategy guide, hussars can cover dragoons as they go in, drawing fire from guns and planes, and they fly at about the same speed so yeah. Planes can also do this, but its not quite as cool ;)
Bottom line is, if ur up against a boarder player early game, assuming tech 0 or 1 start, you just have to spam guards. But they are more cost effective than boarding troops, especially if ur placement with them is clever, and for god sake multiple bridges or your ship will get captured with guards still on it. Have extra crew and a sickbay too. Then you can either force them away with your own marine squad or guns with the money you have leftover from countering their boarders with a cheaper unit. Even if they flee every time, you still win by capturing up the map. As for the question of defenses... you know they can be outfitted with guard barracks right? So yeah... put enough rifles on there and they can do some early game damage to marines and dragoons... but yeah, enemy goes for like 5 marine barracks on a blimp early game? 5 Guards in the forts. 1 musket. Ammo. They cant take ur territory without cannon. They build cannon? So do you. Board their cannon ship and steal it while retaining guards to keep your own boarder. Its just all about adapting to your opponents builds, I think that should be the heart of conquest. That means structuring the game so that there is time to do that, losing the first battle shouldn't lose you the game, otherwise there is no difference between conquest and deathmatch or whatever its called, ship duels, battle-mode. Territories should give more income or defenses should be cheaper to maintain. Just a little bit, its already close to balanced. But its like against the computer i LOSE INCOME when i capture a territory because they built ONE ♥♥♥♥♥♥ CASTLE. That's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, quite frankly, balance your game. Monsters are good tho. Maybe just make MORE territories? The thing is, if you make it so no one ever builds defences, because its not worth it, then you just need one tiny little ship to run around super fast and capture everything, and who wants to micro that, its annoying. This is assuming there's no pause function in multiplayer, which there REALLY shouldn't be, except when people are building, in which there should be a timer, and everyone should be able to build during a building phase. Or maybe not. Build-at-your-own-risk mode means that you can build anytime, but play does not stop. You will receive notifications mid-build, and building will be interrupted for battles. This is essentially hardcore mode. Then there is the mode of playing only with pre-made ships, no building. (4 possible modes - Premade Designs Only, Design Pause[max-length], Design Phase[frequency, max-length], Design No-Pause) I think Design Phase is too stilted, it needs to be more as needed, unless you want to make a turn-based conquest mode, which could be cool. For me tho, you really need to be able to DIRECTLY counter what your opponent is doing mid-game. That's what real war is like. ♥♥♥♥ they have this I need this asap. And thats what will keep the game fresh and new and exciting, you're always going to build something at least a little different, try new things based on the current meta and game situation, and doing it quickly with say a 1-5 minute building phase time pressure will also ensure some differences and improvisational aspects. Granted you can also make new designs between games for no-design mode, but I think having those modes would be REALLY COOL and REALLY HELP expand the player base. And that will probably mean more money and more time for you to work on the game. Last minute armors and decorations could be funny too. OBVIOUSLY this build-pause timer should be adjustable in the setup screen, something for players to agree upon. Its all about experiementation, inginueity, and then actually using your builds well in combat, and building them to suit your own combat preferences and style. I don't care what's easy. Make this game what it OUGHT TO BE. Kick reason to the curb to achieve the impossible. -Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan

[Muffinmilk]

Oh and some kindof slight enhancement of what is already a good feature - the flag system where you get a faction bonus. The boarding reload speed might be OP, I will test it tonight, but other than that they are good. Just maybe like being able to choose two of them, and/or... changing the tech ones to something else, like dragoon flight speed or... just more interesting and varied and more depth there. They are kindof bland as it is. 15% income cities? What about 15% from towns? The monster slayer one is cool, but kindof situational. Wouldnt it be nice to have that COMBINED with something else? Seems like the opportunity cost of picking one is too high. Combine a few of them so they make sense together, or let players combine them as they choose. Pick 3. Its a good start. there's another idea i had on this point ill remember later.

[HungryHunter]

Originally posted by Muffinmilk:

Oh and some kindof slight enhancement of what is already a good feature - the flag system where you get a faction bonus. The boarding reload speed might be OP, I will test it tonight, but other than that they are good. Just maybe like being able to choose two of them, and/or... changing the tech ones to something else, like dragoon flight speed or... just more interesting and varied and more depth there. They are kindof bland as it is. 15% income cities? What about 15% from towns? The monster slayer one is cool, but kindof situational. Wouldnt it be nice to have that COMBINED with something else? Seems like the opportunity cost of picking one is too high. Combine a few of them so they make sense together, or let players combine them as they choose. Pick 3. Its a good start. there's another idea i had on this point ill remember later.

Let me make a something for you.
Flagsign A: Brings tech "A" and some +% agenst "a"
Combine Flagsign A with B: Brings you still tech "A" but +% agenst "b"
This maybe some cool combination to play with and overall a new mechanic fo a alrady cool game.

[Creakit the Shark]

When you're playing on what I'm playing (max difficulty no starting tech) you basically have to pick the spear. Otherwise you just auto lose before you can build anything.

You cannot afford both secret police and defensive structures. So instead, you have neither.

Even if you COULD afford it, it probably wouldn't matter. You'll probably never beat the AI's fleets with starting tech, since they don't have the burdon of a tech tree. But with good ship managment you can just beat the campaign without ever fighting any real battles. Just hit their economy until they're forced to sell their own ships.

[taurgis]

gatling guns, saws, and flamers.
plus huassars.
hussars are OP

[Creakit the Shark]

Originally posted by taurgis:

gatling guns, saws, and flamers.
plus huassars.
hussars are OP

At least then I have to build an actual boarding vehicle

[No One]

Originally posted by SapphireSage:

5) The boarding party keeps captured ships in their Navy on a won battle.

Boarding = necromancy.

[Creakit the Shark]

Originally posted by No One:

Originally posted by SapphireSage:

5) The boarding party keeps captured ships in their Navy on a won battle.

Boarding = necromancy.

Yeah but you should just sell them and use it to buy more boarding ships.