Yasuke's samurai status and whether it matters in historical fiction

[Roy]

EDIT:
If Yasuke received a stipend, home, his own servants, and wakizashi with decorated sheath, rode with Nobunaga, dined with him, had private conversations with him, was chosen as his bodyguard, then it's not far-fetched to believe he was at the very least treated as a samurai, or that Nobunaga had plans to make him one. Only a samurai can be a lord's sword bearer, and while we have no record of Yasuke with this title, he was recorded to be seen carrying out duties of a koshō and sword bearer to Oda Nobunaga. Japanese historians say in this period a master could promote his servant any time regardless of social status, and there is record of gossip that Nobunaga planned to make Yasuke a lord. We'll never know the inner thoughts of a centuries dead warlord, during a war that featured sub-classes of samurai while many were being recruited. If you think Yasuke was a pet to be paraded while receiving all these perks, then I wonder what use (or gifts) Nobunaga would have had for you.

----Japanese historians who suggested Yasuke might have been a samurai include Hiraku Kaneko and Oka Mihoko. The general consensus among historians is that there is insufficient evidence to conclude Yasuke was a samurai. The prominent Yūichi Goza said, "The text then indicates that this means he was treated as a samurai. [...]even if he was a samurai, he was a samurai in name-only."

Historical fiction is more interesting with jumping off points from reality. One of the closest people to Nobunaga is featured in this historical fiction. Japan's PM was only angry that shrines could be climbed, monk NPCs killed, and sacred items of temples destroyed. Ubisoft apologized and removed that in the day 1 patch.

Japan has made dramatizations of Yasuke as a samurai in modern media since 1968.

[Call Sign: Raven]

It reminds me of the kid who recently got made an honorary secret service agent. Maybe not on that level, because his honorary status is essentially just for publicity.

But, maybe being an honorary samurai under Nobunaga had some type of power, since that time period was heavily entrenched in a class system. I do know there were different "ranks" of samurai, with different levels of power. For all we know, he could have been in some kind of minor role.

The chief function of a samurai is to defend one's lord and fiefdom, so a lord can literally make anybody they wanted a samurai, should they choose to do so. I don't think it's as far-fetched as people are saying.

[Slaytherine]

Go back to play your AC Shadow. You only have 11.6 hrs. Is it not that good?

Or is the game free for you?

When you are able to read Japanese, read 信長公計, and then we can talk. I bet you to find me sources of Yasuke.

[SAS7200]

During Azuchi–Momoyama period (Which is the period that Oda Nobunaga lived and ruled in), Every retainer wasn't a samurai, but every samurai was a retainer. (Because, they were serving for Daimyo)
And Retainers were rewarded with stipends or fiefs (chigyō-system) and were expected to provide military service during campaigns.
Also well, yes yasuke might be treated like a samurai by Nobunaga, but iirc, Most of samurais that were under command of Nobunaga were Killed during the battles, Commited Seppeku, or Executed after the war. Luis Fróis recorded that Yasuke was captured but not executed because Akechi Mitsuhide’s men considered him a foreigner, not a real samurai.

[Deadly Dan]

Hey, I can do the same:

While Yasuke is often referred to as the first African samurai, there are several reasons to argue against him being a traditional samurai:

• Yasuke was a servant or bodyguard to the Japanese daimyo Oda Nobunaga, rather than a member of the traditional samurai class. His role was more akin to a foreign mercenary or a personal attendant, rather than a warrior of the samurai caste.
  
• There is no evidence to suggest that Yasuke underwent the traditional training or rituals associated with becoming a samurai, such as the gempuku ceremony or the study of bushido.
  
• Yasuke's background and origins are not well-documented, but it is believed that he was a slave or servant from Africa who was brought to Japan by the Portuguese. As such, he would not have had the same social status or cultural background as traditional samurai, who were members of the Japanese nobility.
  
• The term "samurai" refers specifically to the members of the warrior class in Japan during the Edo period, who were known for their adherence to a strict code of conduct and their loyalty to their daimyo. Yasuke's role and status in Japanese society were likely very different from those of traditional samurai.
  
• Some historians argue that the idea of Yasuke as a samurai is a product of modern-day romanticization and exaggeration, and that his actual role and significance in Japanese history have been distorted or inflated over time.

[Weltall8000]

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

Hey, I can do the same:

While Yasuke is often referred to as the first African samurai, there are several reasons to argue against him being a traditional samurai:

• Yasuke was a servant or bodyguard to the Japanese daimyo Oda Nobunaga, rather than a member of the traditional samurai class. His role was more akin to a foreign mercenary or a personal attendant, rather than a warrior of the samurai caste.
  
• There is no evidence to suggest that Yasuke underwent the traditional training or rituals associated with becoming a samurai, such as the gempuku ceremony or the study of bushido.
  
• Yasuke's background and origins are not well-documented, but it is believed that he was a slave or servant from Africa who was brought to Japan by the Portuguese. As such, he would not have had the same social status or cultural background as traditional samurai, who were members of the Japanese nobility.
  
• The term "samurai" refers specifically to the members of the warrior class in Japan during the Edo period, who were known for their adherence to a strict code of conduct and their loyalty to their daimyo. Yasuke's role and status in Japanese society were likely very different from those of traditional samurai.
  
• Some historians argue that the idea of Yasuke as a samurai is a product of modern-day romanticization and exaggeration, and that his actual role and significance in Japanese history have been distorted or inflated over time.

No True Samurai-man Fallacy. On top of just factual misconceptions.

[Deadly Dan]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

No True Samurai-man Fallacy. On top of just factual misconceptions.

BTFO by an AI

[Weltall8000]

Originally posted by 女無さん:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

No True Samurai-man Fallacy. On top of just factual misconceptions.

That is crazy moronic. He's arguing that it was unclear whether or not he was a samurai. NOT the definition of a "true samurai". There is no fallacy here.

I was alluding to the No True Scotsman Fallacy. "Yasuke wasn't really a samurai, he was just a mercenary or an attendant. REAL samurai were members of a warrior caste!"

And it's wrong. He was a samurai. And most of these things referenced in the AI prompted bullet points are deliberately sidestepping the fact that the status of samurai was rather fluid with a lot of mobility up or down the social hierarchy, particularly in this time period. A few decades later under the Tokugawas, that changed. But in the Sengoku era? ♥♥♥♥ was chaotic and samurai were created and destroyed all over the place.

And in Yasuke's case? Nobunaga made him one. He armed him, he gave him position, a job, and a samurai's stipend.

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

No True Samurai-man Fallacy. On top of just factual misconceptions.

BTFO by an AI :lunar2019laughingpig:

lol not even close. It was just a bad argument that sorta looks compelling...if one knows next to nothing about the subject.

[Deadly Dan]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

BTFO by an AI

lol not even close. It was just a bad argument that sorta looks compelling...if one knows next to nothing about the subject.

Imagine getting defeated with a single prompt by a subpar AI model and then trying to be smug haha. Amazing!

[女無さん]

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

Originally posted by 女無さん:

That is crazy moronic. He's arguing that it was unclear whether or not he was a samurai. NOT the definition of a "true samurai". There is no fallacy here.

I was alluding to the No True Scotsman Fallacy. "Yasuke wasn't really a samurai, he was just a mercenary or an attendant. REAL samurai were members of a warrior caste!"

And it's wrong. He was a samurai. And most of these things referenced in the AI prompted bullet points are deliberately sidestepping the fact that the status of samurai was rather fluid with a lot of mobility up or down the social hierarchy, particularly in this time period. A few decades later under the Tokugawas, that changed. But in the Sengoku era? ♥♥♥♥ was chaotic and samurai were created and destroyed all over the place.

And in Yasuke's case? Nobunaga made him one. He armed him, he gave him position, a job, and a samurai's stipend.

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

BTFO by an AI :lunar2019laughingpig:

lol not even close. It was just a bad argument that sorta looks compelling...if one knows next to nothing about the subject.

I don't believe you over Japanese history experts debating whether or not he was a Samurai, sorry but it's not convincing. Even the Japanese can't unite on a fact because the details are so blurry then I don't think you can either. Especially so if you can't even read or understand the language and culture.

[Deadly Dan]

Originally posted by 女無さん:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

I was alluding to the No True Scotsman Fallacy. "Yasuke wasn't really a samurai, he was just a mercenary or an attendant. REAL samurai were members of a warrior caste!"

And it's wrong. He was a samurai. And most of these things referenced in the AI prompted bullet points are deliberately sidestepping the fact that the status of samurai was rather fluid with a lot of mobility up or down the social hierarchy, particularly in this time period. A few decades later under the Tokugawas, that changed. But in the Sengoku era? ♥♥♥♥ was chaotic and samurai were created and destroyed all over the place.

And in Yasuke's case? Nobunaga made him one. He armed him, he gave him position, a job, and a samurai's stipend.





lol not even close. It was just a bad argument that sorta looks compelling...if one knows next to nothing about the subject.

I don't believe you over Japanese history experts debating whether or not he was a Samurai, sorry but it's not convincing. Even the Japanese can't unite on a fact because the details are so blurry then I don't think you can either. Especially so if you can't even read or understand the language and culture.

It's pretty clear that Yasuke wasn't a Samurai, there is not a single historical document ever referring to him as "Samurai". He would have been the first Samurai to conclude his training in under a year, while it usually takes upwards of 5 years for Japanese men. This has devolved into an ideological battleground where "facts" are being constructed at will to fit their own political agenda. History doesn't support Yasuke being a Samurai in the slightest.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

Originally posted by 女無さん:

I don't believe you over Japanese history experts debating whether or not he was a Samurai, sorry but it's not convincing. Even the Japanese can't unite on a fact because the details are so blurry then I don't think you can either. Especially so if you can't even read or understand the language and culture.

It's pretty clear that Yasuke wasn't a Samurai, there is not a single historical document ever referring to him as "Samurai". He would have been the first Samurai to conclude his training in under a year, while it usually takes upwards of 5 years for Japanese men. This has devolved into an ideological battleground where "facts" are being constructed at will to fit their own political agenda. History doesn't support Yasuke being a Samurai in the slightest.

Now you're taking a topic that has no agreed upon conclusion by historians, and firmly making a conclusion while ignoring the past discussion between both sides. Why do you think there is so much discussion surrounding Yasuke's very existence? Is that by accident, or is it because historians are split due to the ambiguity of the situation?

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

It reminds me of the kid who recently got made an honorary secret service agent. Maybe not on that level, because his honorary status is essentially just for publicity.

But, maybe being an honorary samurai under Nobunaga had some type of power, since that time period was heavily entrenched in a class system. I do know there were different "ranks" of samurai, with different levels of power. For all we know, he could have been in some kind of minor role.

The chief function of a samurai is to defend one's lord and fiefdom, so a lord can literally make anybody they wanted a samurai, should they choose to do so. I don't think it's as far-fetched as people are saying.

It's not far fetched at all during the Senguko period where everyone was at war. Why wouldn't you make a massive tall strong black guy samurai to fight on your side?

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

It reminds me of the kid who recently got made an honorary secret service agent. Maybe not on that level, because his honorary status is essentially just for publicity.

But, maybe being an honorary samurai under Nobunaga had some type of power, since that time period was heavily entrenched in a class system. I do know there were different "ranks" of samurai, with different levels of power. For all we know, he could have been in some kind of minor role.

The chief function of a samurai is to defend one's lord and fiefdom, so a lord can literally make anybody they wanted a samurai, should they choose to do so. I don't think it's as far-fetched as people are saying.

It's not far fetched at all during the Senguko period where everyone was at war. Why wouldn't you make a massive tall strong black guy samurai to fight on your side?

Yep, absolutely agree. And further, ACS is a work of fiction. We have video games that feature talking, blue hedgehogs, italian plumbers that can jump over houses, and nobody bats an eye. Then Ubi makes a game with a black, samurai protag and people lose their minds.

[Weltall8000]

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

lol not even close. It was just a bad argument that sorta looks compelling...if one knows next to nothing about the subject.

Imagine getting defeated with a single prompt by a subpar AI model and then trying to be smug haha. Amazing!

I mean, you did in post #5.

Originally posted by 女無さん:

Originally posted by Weltall8000:

I was alluding to the No True Scotsman Fallacy. "Yasuke wasn't really a samurai, he was just a mercenary or an attendant. REAL samurai were members of a warrior caste!"

And it's wrong. He was a samurai. And most of these things referenced in the AI prompted bullet points are deliberately sidestepping the fact that the status of samurai was rather fluid with a lot of mobility up or down the social hierarchy, particularly in this time period. A few decades later under the Tokugawas, that changed. But in the Sengoku era? ♥♥♥♥ was chaotic and samurai were created and destroyed all over the place.

And in Yasuke's case? Nobunaga made him one. He armed him, he gave him position, a job, and a samurai's stipend.





lol not even close. It was just a bad argument that sorta looks compelling...if one knows next to nothing about the subject.

I don't believe you over Japanese history experts debating whether or not he was a Samurai, sorry but it's not convincing. Even the Japanese can't unite on a fact because the details are so blurry then I don't think you can either. Especially so if you can't even read or understand the language and culture.

They really aren't blurry though. While there isn't a ton of information on the man, what we do have pretty clearly puts him in a position of one who was a samurai. Note, I am not saying Yasuke was a one man wrecking crew or anything, just, he was a samurai with a lord. Reading the historical sources, yeah, there really shouldn't be much controversy about his status.

Not fluent, but I do understand basic Japanese. Nothing I've said on the subject of the sources was incorrect.

Originally posted by Deadly Dan:

Originally posted by 女無さん:

I don't believe you over Japanese history experts debating whether or not he was a Samurai, sorry but it's not convincing. Even the Japanese can't unite on a fact because the details are so blurry then I don't think you can either. Especially so if you can't even read or understand the language and culture.

It's pretty clear that Yasuke wasn't a Samurai, there is not a single historical document ever referring to him as "Samurai". He would have been the first Samurai to conclude his training in under a year, while it usually takes upwards of 5 years for Japanese men. This has devolved into an ideological battleground where "facts" are being constructed at will to fit their own political agenda. History doesn't support Yasuke being a Samurai in the slightest.

Tell me you know nothing about samurai without saying you know nothing about samurai.

[Roy]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

is it because historians are split due to the ambiguity of the situation?

Speaking of the ambiguity, that's a good thing for a historical fiction video game. In universe, there is no public record of anything that happens in AC because of conspiracy and all that.