Yasuke was not a great samurai warrior, like some like to beleive.

[Zombie Enthusiast]

He was kept around by Oda Nobunaga as an oddity, since seeing a black person back then was just something else to him. Nobunaga was a man that had an interest in anything that was unique and foreign. Hell, he kept the skull of Azai Nagamasa, which he plated in gold, which he loved to show off to others, even though they thought it was tacky. When he was first introduced to Yasuke by Italian Jesuit Allesandro Valignano, the dude thought his skin was painted dark as some sort of trick by Jesuit. Nobunaga had Yasuke stripped down and bathed right there, and when he realized that was his actual skin color, he was enthralled by it. He couldn't help but be enthused by this revelation.

At some point in time, he went in service to Nobunaga as a sword bearer, but most sword bearers back then never really went into battle. There is no historical evidence that he fought in any battles. There is also no historical evidence that he learned to speak Japanese or become greatly respected. There is no evidence that Nobunaga trained Yasuke to be a great warrior, since the two only knew each other for a few months before Nobunaga died. But, there is evidence that his top generals hated Yasuke, with them thinking he was nothing more than a wild beast.

It's just a myth. There was no great black samurai. Yasuke was just kept around as some sort of pet for Nobunaga to show off to others during the little time that the two spent with each other.

[sigina ✝]

Origineel geplaatst door Berries and Cream:

Origineel geplaatst door CiggyPop ✝:

The idea of Yasuke in armor or people bowing to him is no different from Anastasia surviving her execution, George Washington wielding the Apple of Eden, Cleopatra fighting for justice, or Blackbeard being portrayed as a larger-than-life character. It’s a creative liberty, and if dramatizing him is 'disrespectful,' then by that logic, Ubisoft has disrespected every culture they’ve depicted since 2007.

Making Yasuke a ninja wouldn’t make sense since historical texts (Shinchō Kōki) describe him serving as a retainer, a role of samurai rank. Rewriting him as a ninja would be just as much a revision as the creative liberties you’re criticizing.

Do you want me to post the sources again, or are you still going to avoid them?

you still don't get it.

you are just using a false equivalence fallacy and trying to justify yasuke existance as a samurai in full armor walking the streets with no issue whatsoever being the only african person in japan in that period and people bowing, paying respects to such figure which isn't plausible at all, he could have been a master spy helping nobunaga or another character, sharing information, revealing enemy plans etc but a mighty samurai warrior?

japanese players wanted a local, native japanese protagonist, from all the historical figures in japan and sengoku period this yasuke character was picked above all others, why? you are just trying to justify ubisoft decisions by comparing it with other fictional situations in previous games that alone is a whataboutism fallacy, changing topic, diverting attention.

Your whole argument your logic is "it's fiction and other characters and situations in previous games are fiction as well therefore everything is valid so no issue with yasuke portrayal" it's a weak, flawed argument which ignores many particular elements from those other characters and their context, that's a oversimplification and another fallacy btw.

why ubisoft avoided the Tokyo Game Show? simple, because japanese public was extremely upset with this game and how they disrespected their culture in multiple ways including the torii gate incident and paying fake historians and messing with wikipedia to justify their yasuke portrayal, that's a fact not personal anecdote and opinions that people furiously want to use as fact to protect this game. Anyways looking at star wars outlaws or skull and bones and avatar game i really doubt this game is going to save ubisoft, at best it will reach dragon age the veilguard numbers.

Let me clear this up. I never said Yasuke walked around in full armor with everyone bowing in real life. That’s your misunderstanding. What I’m pointing out is that it’s a dramatization of a historical figure based on historical records, like how people were amazed by him when seeing him for the first time, so much so that some even gave him money out of fascination, and that Nobunaga respected him enough to make him a retainer.

Yasuke is part of Japanese history, whether you like it or not. There are already plenty of games with native Japanese protagonists, and having one game where you play as both Yasuke and a Japanese character doesn’t take anything away from that. Many even talked about wanting to be able to play as him after seeing him together with William Adams in Nioh 1, 7 years ago.

As for your claim that I’m using a 'false equivalence,' I’m not saying every fictional portrayal is valid. What I’m pointing out is that Ubisoft's version of Yasuke’s portrayal is a dramatization of a real person, just like how AC: Valhalla took heavy creative liberties with the portrayal of the Vikings. The game’s depiction of the Norse and its overall narrative was largely inspired by the Vikings TV show, and no one raised an issue with that. Or, for example, in AC:2, Pope Clement VII was villainized and even beat up by an angry Italian, and yet nobody complained about that either. The lore even has aliens in it.

And regarding the claims of fake historians and Wikipedia manipulation, I don’t rely on those sources. I know how easily they can be edited, which is why I did my own research. Like, reading through the collected Portuguese letters, which are available online as photographed documents. These are actual written texts, not something edited by random users on the Internet

[Ragnar Random]

it just isnt worth it, CiggyPop. i respect what you are trying to do, but you can't reason with unreasonable people. if UbiSoft did a total about-face and removed Yasuke entirely, they would find something else to be upset about, and reframe the narrative around that manufactured outrage. its what they do.

[Segert]

Origineel geplaatst door Paulie:

Literally could have made the story be about a random guy stumbling across the Hattori clan, being trained in the ways of the actual historical Clan of assassins... but no. lets just rehash this old joke of a black samurai myth.

THIS! It is gaslighting that people say people dont like yasuke because he is black. No. I would be as pissed. If a whiteman during the sengoku jidai would be depicted as a samurai. Wearing nobles armour. Also why not depict a japanese man OR woman as a samurai? That would not be a problem.

And make yasuke a shinobi in the hattori clan. That would be good.

Origineel geplaatst door Ragnar Random:

it just isnt worth it, CiggyPop. i respect what you are trying to do, but you can't reason with unreasonable people. if UbiSoft did a total about-face and removed Yasuke entirely, they would find something else to be upset about, and reframe the narrative around that manufactured outrage. its what they do.

Its a common tactic/trope to say to people you dont agree with. These unreasonable people. Without willing to listen to why they are saying what they are saying. You want an echo chamber? You wont find that here.

[Ragnar Random]

i've listened to, read, and understood everything you and other anti-woke outrage farmers have had to say. i dont want an echo chamber, you are free to believe what you want, and free to post whatever bothers you, as i am free to ignore you or engage you as i see fit. you say that ghost of yokei is woke because the voice actress is of a gender identity you disagree with. you ♥♥♥♥ on godot engine because the community manager used a rainbow emoji in a tweet. you say that horizon forbidden west is woke because aloy is 'ugly' and is a lesbian in the dlc. every time someone is represented in a game or other media that goes against the right-wing talking points, you cry woke.
the majority of the people on here who are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this unreleased game that noone has played yet, is because Asmongold and other youtube grifters sent you here. amid the small pieces of legitimate criticism or concerns that people have voiced about cultural appropriation, there are large and vocal members of you community shouting about 'yasuke was a pet' and 'yasuke was a circus attraction' and other similar racist dogwhistles.
i type all this up, but it was pointless. i cannot change your mind, nor can you change my mind. attempting civil discourse between your side and mind is pointless. we are enemies.

[sigina ✝]

Origineel geplaatst door Segert:

Origineel geplaatst door Paulie:

Literally could have made the story be about a random guy stumbling across the Hattori clan, being trained in the ways of the actual historical Clan of assassins... but no. lets just rehash this old joke of a black samurai myth.

THIS! It is gaslighting that people say people dont like yasuke because he is black. No. I would be as pissed. If a whiteman during the sengoku jidai would be depicted as a samurai. Wearing nobles armour. Also why not depict a japanese man OR woman as a samurai? That would not be a problem.

And make yasuke a shinobi in the hattori clan. That would be good.

I’ve never suggested that issues with Yasuke come from his race, but rather from attempts to dismiss him as a 'jester' or 'pet,' ignoring historical records or attributing it solely to Thomas Lockley’s work. After all, who gives a foreigner a samurai stipend, a house, and mentions him in the Honnō-ji Incident if he was just a pet? And are you saying the portrayal of William Adams is an issue as well?

In my opinion, whether Ghost of Tsushima or Ghost Yotei does certain things better than Shadows, or the other way around, I’ll still enjoy both.

Origineel geplaatst door Ragnar Random:

it just isnt worth it, CiggyPop. i respect what you are trying to do, but you can't reason with unreasonable people. if UbiSoft did a total about-face and removed Yasuke entirely, they would find something else to be upset about, and reframe the narrative around that manufactured outrage. its what they do.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I’ve shared multiple credible sources for them to review, but they’ll either dismiss it outright or resort to giving us ‘jester awards,’ as usual. It’s a predictable cycle.

[Segert]

Origineel geplaatst door CiggyPop ✝:

Origineel geplaatst door Segert:

THIS! It is gaslighting that people say people dont like yasuke because he is black. No. I would be as pissed. If a whiteman during the sengoku jidai would be depicted as a samurai. Wearing nobles armour. Also why not depict a japanese man OR woman as a samurai? That would not be a problem.

And make yasuke a shinobi in the hattori clan. That would be good.

I’ve never suggested that issues with Yasuke come from his race, but rather from attempts to dismiss him as a 'jester' or 'pet,' ignoring historical records or attributing it solely to Thomas Lockley’s work. After all, who gives a foreigner a samurai stipend, a house, and mentions him in the Honnō-ji Incident if he was just a pet? And are you saying the portrayal of William Adams is an issue as well?

In my opinion, whether Ghost of Tsushima or Ghost Yotei does certain things better than Shadows, or the other way around, I’ll still enjoy both.

Origineel geplaatst door Ragnar Random:

it just isnt worth it, CiggyPop. i respect what you are trying to do, but you can't reason with unreasonable people. if UbiSoft did a total about-face and removed Yasuke entirely, they would find something else to be upset about, and reframe the narrative around that manufactured outrage. its what they do.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I’ve shared multiple credible sources for them to review, but they’ll either dismiss it outright or resort to giving us ‘jester awards,’ as usual. It’s a predictable cycle.

Yeah yeah. All that is historical revisionism publicized after this game was announched. Before he was just a footnote. Its discusting frankly. To change a peoples/countries history to fit your modern perspective.

[Segert]

Origineel geplaatst door Ragnar Random:

i've listened to, read, and understood everything you and other anti-woke outrage farmers have had to say. i dont want an echo chamber, you are free to believe what you want, and free to post whatever bothers you, as i am free to ignore you or engage you as i see fit. you say that ghost of yokei is woke because the voice actress is of a gender identity you disagree with. you ♥♥♥♥ on godot engine because the community manager used a rainbow emoji in a tweet. you say that horizon forbidden west is woke because aloy is 'ugly' and is a lesbian in the dlc. every time someone is represented in a game or other media that goes against the right-wing talking points, you cry woke.
the majority of the people on here who are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this unreleased game that noone has played yet, is because Asmongold and other youtube grifters sent you here. amid the small pieces of legitimate criticism or concerns that people have voiced about cultural appropriation, there are large and vocal members of you community shouting about 'yasuke was a pet' and 'yasuke was a circus attraction' and other similar racist dogwhistles.
i type all this up, but it was pointless. i cannot change your mind, nor can you change my mind. attempting civil discourse between your side and mind is pointless. we are enemies.

Who is talking about ghost of yokei? What is gadot engine? Never played a horizon game. And never engaged with it. And asmogold is that youtuber right? Heard about him. Never watched him.

Also nobody here said he was a pet. We did say he was a curiosity to the japanese people. And that is not racist. or incorrect. It was just at the time so. Europeans where also curiosities in the same way.

But you filling a lot of stuff in. Talking about things not relevant to the topic. And just raging because you feel like it.

Would it be ok for a AC game in afrika or middle east. Where the main character is a scandinavian or another european? No? We shouldnt have different morals on the same thing. Just because of skin colour.

[sigina ✝]

Origineel geplaatst door Segert:

Yeah yeah. All that is historical revisionism publicized after this game was announched. Before he was just a footnote. Its discusting frankly. To change a peoples/countries history to fit your modern perspective.

Ah, so the Jesuit priests were actually time-traveling agents from some secretive group like 'Sweet Baby Inc.,' traveling back to the late 1500s just to craft these conveniently timed Portuguese reports? Now that would be an interesting plot twist.

[Ragnar Random]

Who is talking about ghost of yokei? What is gadot engine? Never played a horizon game. And never engaged with it. And asmogold is that youtuber right? Heard about him. Never watched him.

Also nobody here said he was a pet. We did say he was a curiosity to the japanese people. And that is not racist. or incorrect. It was just at the time so. Europeans where also curiosities in the same way.

But you filling a lot of stuff in. Talking about things not relevant to the topic. And just raging because you feel like it.

Would it be ok for a AC game in afrika or middle east. Where the main character is a scandinavian or another european? No? We shouldnt have different morals on the same thing. Just because of skin colour.

people here have mentioned ghost of yokei in these discussions, as a further example of the same woke bogeyman that is alleged in this game.
people here have said he was a pet. verbatim. perhaps you didn't say it, but the people on your side have. you've aligned yourself with right wing anti-woke people, so you get lumped in with them, just as i get lumped in with those leftists who take the movement farther than i would. it is the nature of the culture war.
would it be ok for an AC game in afrika or the middle east to create a white savior character? no, probably not. what you describe in this hypothetical scenario is an actually good example of the valid criticism on cultural appropriation.
the reality is, however, that Yasuke is a figure in japanese culture. CiggyPop has provided NUMEROUS citations of Yasuke in japanese culture. i have, in another thread, provided NUMEROUS citations of Yasuke in japanese media, from anime to manga to video games. The 'black samurai myth' has been fine in japan until several reactionary right wing populists in japan have rallied with right wing populists in the western world in this specific situation, as part of the wider anti-woke culture war. yasuke was never a problem in the past 50 years of japanese media that have depicted him, but now it is.
was yasuke an important person? no, almost certainly not. was a footnote in japanese history? yes, almost certainly. has he been used in japanese media numerous times as a fictionalized character? over and over again, yes.

again, this game hasnt even been released, noone has played it, and noone really knows the story. you have screenshots and a trailer, some tweets, and a bunch of outrage that was cultivated by right wing political actors.

from my perspective the fact that this game has two playable viewpoint characters is going to be an important part of telling the story. the female character is a japanese native, while the male character is a foreigner in japan. so we will get an insider's story as well as an outsider's story. both stories will be fictional. no matter how it plays out, you can be sure that the right wing anti-woke folks will be outraged by it, while they continue to look for a new piece of media to be outraged by.

[DR GOO]

This game is an insult. Ubisoft CAN save themselves by firing all the woke slop merchants in their company and making Yasuke into a Japanese man.

Delay the games launch for as long as it takes.

[Hayley]

How do you know? Were you alive back then?

[Segert]

Origineel geplaatst door Hayley:

How do you know? Were you alive back then?

And how do you know? Were you alive back then? See how that goes both ways?

I tend to trust actual Japanese historians and experts in their own culture. Than Ubislop that just pisses on peoples cultures and history. By hiring fake historians and editing wiki articles the moment this game was announced.

[Segert]

Origineel geplaatst door Ragnar Random:

Who is talking about ghost of yokei? What is gadot engine? Never played a horizon game. And never engaged with it. And asmogold is that youtuber right? Heard about him. Never watched him.

Also nobody here said he was a pet. We did say he was a curiosity to the japanese people. And that is not racist. or incorrect. It was just at the time so. Europeans where also curiosities in the same way.

But you filling a lot of stuff in. Talking about things not relevant to the topic. And just raging because you feel like it.

Would it be ok for a AC game in afrika or middle east. Where the main character is a scandinavian or another european? No? We shouldnt have different morals on the same thing. Just because of skin colour.

people here have mentioned ghost of yokei in these discussions, as a further example of the same woke bogeyman that is alleged in this game.
people here have said he was a pet. verbatim. perhaps you didn't say it, but the people on your side have. you've aligned yourself with right wing anti-woke people, so you get lumped in with them, just as i get lumped in with those leftists who take the movement farther than i would. it is the nature of the culture war.
would it be ok for an AC game in afrika or the middle east to create a white savior character? no, probably not. what you describe in this hypothetical scenario is an actually good example of the valid criticism on cultural appropriation.
the reality is, however, that Yasuke is a figure in japanese culture. CiggyPop has provided NUMEROUS citations of Yasuke in japanese culture. i have, in another thread, provided NUMEROUS citations of Yasuke in japanese media, from anime to manga to video games. The 'black samurai myth' has been fine in japan until several reactionary right wing populists in japan have rallied with right wing populists in the western world in this specific situation, as part of the wider anti-woke culture war. yasuke was never a problem in the past 50 years of japanese media that have depicted him, but now it is.
was yasuke an important person? no, almost certainly not. was a footnote in japanese history? yes, almost certainly. has he been used in japanese media numerous times as a fictionalized character? over and over again, yes.

again, this game hasnt even been released, noone has played it, and noone really knows the story. you have screenshots and a trailer, some tweets, and a bunch of outrage that was cultivated by right wing political actors.

from my perspective the fact that this game has two playable viewpoint characters is going to be an important part of telling the story. the female character is a japanese native, while the male character is a foreigner in japan. so we will get an insider's story as well as an outsider's story. both stories will be fictional. no matter how it plays out, you can be sure that the right wing anti-woke folks will be outraged by it, while they continue to look for a new piece of media to be outraged by.

You are just way too entrenched in your own politics. Woke this. right wink that. Yadda yadda yadda. Nobody cares about your politics. Or the politics of both sides. Most of us just care about. is it a good game? Does it respect the culture? Shadows already doesnt respect the culture. And if it is anything like the previous AC games. It will just be rehashed slop.

That opinion has nothing to do with anyones. Or US politics. As i assume this is just more insanity from the USA. The rest of the world doesnt care about you. Or what you think. Just dont disrespect them.

[KoV]

cultural appropriation is whats happening

[HiRed_ThuG]

Origineel geplaatst door Segert:

Origineel geplaatst door Hayley:

How do you know? Were you alive back then?

And how do you know? Were you alive back then? See how that goes both ways?

I tend to trust actual Japanese historians and experts in their own culture. Than Ubislop that just pisses on peoples cultures and history. By hiring fake historians and editing wiki articles the moment this game was announced.

Oh, in that case.

https://www.thegamer.com/assassins-creed-shadows-yasuke-real-life-samurai-japanese-historian-confirms-controversy-debate/

there's no doubt that he was a samurai who served Nobunaga.

I look forwards to an excuse or for the goal post to be moved.