This gameplay design is idiotic

[piecewise66]

Seriously, everything about this game is probably the worst, most poorly designed mechanics I've ever seen.

Why does the game boot you out of a cutscene only to make you select another cutscene and continue doing nothing? Why would it not just string these together into one act rather than forcing me to skip through this boring ♥♥♥♥ 4-5 times a level? The story is just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible in general; generic, uninteresting characters, a boring plot, artificial drama, its C teir anime writing at best.

Why do the enemies shoot at you all the time? I understand shooting at you when you're running between areas or getting counter attacks but why do they keep shooting at you while you're crouched behind cover, not moving, not using up action points, when time should be paused? Has the braindead developer of this game very played literally any other tactical game EVER? Its like playing chess with someone and they just keep moving pieces constantly while you're making your move. Its basically nothing except a health tax; no matter how quickly you act and move, or how much cover and tactics you use, they're always gonna get a few hits on you. And whats worse this is unfair to the player because the PC acts instantly so you never get the chance to pelt them with a few rifle rounds as they smash the end turn button.

Whats worse the game seems highly restrictive. Want to do something tactically? No, you must go inbetween our invisible walls and do the fight exactly as we want you to.

Its pretty looking...sort of. Its just low poly anime models with an filter over it.

I have no idea why people seem to love this game so much.

[Mistfox]

İlk olarak piecewise66 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Mistfox tarafından gönderildi:

There are very good balance reasons for the intercept fire, it prevents you from literally strolling in to cap your objective and it puts in some pressure for you to make on the spot decisions. Against the AI, it's not as good as you make it sound for their 'immediate action'. They stop the instant they get hit...even if they are out in the open, so use reaction fire to stick them in the open and keep them away from your areas.

If you're too much into twitch shooter games, your 'keep moving now' reflex will screw you up in this game. You need to wait for them to empty their magazine THEN move, not just run through a hail of fire, so you got to do 'leap and bounds' similar to real life. If the game paused in cover, the enemy will never use up their magazine so you don't have a fire pause to sprint to next cover.

I kind of like the retro sketch art style and the mini-vignette book style of story telling and even the sneaky little references to the character's futures (especially the 'author' of the book you're 'reading') personally but as others said, it's not for everybody.

Like I said, I understand them firing at you while you move. That sort of thing is common in tactical games. Reaction shots and what not. But why do they shoot while you're in cover and in a menu? Seriously, why? Because all that means is that each turn you WILL take damage; its unavoidable. In fact the game literally gives you baby mode regenning health to deal with that health tax making the mechanic entirely pointless.

So why?

İlk olarak Mistfox tarafından gönderildi:

If the game paused in cover, the enemy will never use up their magazine so you don't have a fire pause to sprint to next cover.

BTW, if you're hit in cover, you're doing it wrong. Same thing, WAIT for the mag change before moving. If you don't move, even with the menu up, you can stay there, afk and you still will not die if properly done. MOVEMENT is the thing that pops you out of cover.

[Ardanis]

İlk olarak piecewise66 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Ardanis tarafından gönderildi:

Why should it be paused? Because it is paused in every other tactical game? I don't suppose you heard the word "innovation", the thing which keeps games evolving, introducing new features, and creating new genres?

But its pointless innovation that does nothing but force you to spam "End Turn" after your action. And its not even consistant because they stop shooting once you start shooting. I mean, imagine an RPG or something were the enemies were constantly hitting you while you navigated the menus to select attack. Is it innovation? Yes it is. But an ebola buttplug is innovation.

The way I see it, continuous interception fire was meant to prevent player from taking leisure time to properly position themselves in front of a gun's barrel. And it's actually doing its job quite well.

İlk olarak piecewise66 tarafından gönderildi:

Like I said, I understand them firing at you while you move. That sort of thing is common in tactical games. Reaction shots and what not. But why do they shoot while you're in cover and in a menu? Seriously, why? Because all that means is that each turn you WILL take damage; its unavoidable. In fact the game literally gives you baby mode regenning health to deal with that health tax making the mechanic entirely pointless.
So why?

I don't play FPS much, but I recall there was some game (Doom?) where you could go over the armor max and it would slowly degrade over time down to 100.
So, I think it's just a matter of perspective. You can treat full HP bar as character's real health, or you can accept the "real" HP to be technically lower than that and instead getting bonuses from not actively participating in combat.

[piecewise66]

İlk olarak Mistfox tarafından gönderildi:

BTW, if you're hit in cover, you're doing it wrong. Same thing, WAIT for the mag change before moving. If you don't move, even with the menu up, you can stay there, afk and you still will not die if properly done. MOVEMENT is the thing that pops you out of cover.

How am I doing it wrong? Seriously go boot up the game and get into some cover and just sit there without doing anything. The enemy will continue to shoot you, continue to do damage. Even when crouched in cover. Here, Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYGuj7zq7iU
At 29:18 you can see him crouched in cover, not moving, yet still being hit.

İlk olarak Ardanis tarafından gönderildi:

The way I see it, continuous interception fire was meant to prevent player from taking leisure time to properly position themselves in front of a gun's barrel. And it's actually doing its job quite well.

That would make sense...if they didn't shoot you continously in cover or in a menu.

[Mistfox]

For the third time,

İlk olarak Mistfox tarafından gönderildi:

If the game paused in cover, the enemy will never use up their magazine so you don't have a fire pause to sprint to next cover.

I think the problem isn't the game, it's you not thinking about game mechanics and trying to play this like a FPS when it is not. Your 'suggestions' will utterly break the game into a cheezing unplayable mess since scouts can just walk up and cap a location.

If you're this unflexible in your strategies, it's no wonder the game is torturous for you. But this isn't due to the game. It's you using inappropriate tactics and refusing to change.

In short, it's not the game being idiotic.

Hell, I've to repeat ONE point 3 times and you still can't get it....
Oh well, just uninstall and go play Doom or something, you don't need to think there, just keep spamming the fire button.

[Ardanis]

Using cover does reduce the damage taken quite a lot, by physically blocking some of the shots, upping character's defense stat and making them immune to crits. Making it a fine place to wait for enemy to empty the magazine before you sprint to the next spot.
I suppose you would've preferred a cover that makes you completely immune to enemy fire, instead of just sandbags and trenches, but the game indeed is not very rich with options. You can, however, use tank for that purpose.

And I'm not sure what you mean about firing while in menu? They get a few shots at you if you enter the target mode in front of them, while your troopers can't do the same, but honestly I've seen worse. Like enemies in Fallout Tactics getting a free overwatch shot in turn-based mode once per turn, even though PCs can never get it. In VC unfairness like that is far less noticeable, if not negligible imo.

[Mistfox]

İlk olarak Ardanis tarafından gönderildi:

I suppose you would've preferred a cover that makes you completely immune to enemy fire, instead of just sandbags and trenches, but the game indeed is not very rich with options. You can, however, use tank for that purpose.

You can use trees for that too. Even grass if they don't spot you.

[NOBLE SIX]

Seems like this isn't a game for Zoomers

*sip*

[Durandal]

There are some actual stupid mechanics:

-The turn-based-only Rank system. It force you to rush fot captures and ignore enemies at all. When you can boost a simple scout to virtual inmortality and run the entire map and capture the enemy cap in 1-2 turns battles turns into literal walks

-Scout are "one-man aremy" and can do all roles.

-Snipers and Lancers being useless most of the time. I know they are specialized units. But come on... Why i need a sniper that barely can't move from it's deploy position? or an AT unit that is less efective against tanks than just a rifleman?

-Croaching on trenches or sandbags should disable automatically the "jump over" option to avoid accidental get out of the cover.

-There isn't "retry battle" option on pause menu.

-Tanks driving over enemies deals barely no damage.

-Your turn should automatically finish after you spend your last CP.

But interception fire is fine. Action phase must feel dynamic and constant interception fire is a mechanic to put some pressure on the player and make you move fast to avoid too much damage from it.

[Deathraven13]

And you don't even blame the RNG ?
Getting an A rank is quiet bad because it's all about speed, getting an A rank on early maps requiere you to finish in 1 turn, early it's alright but at some point the ennemy will start to dodge your attacks and because of this BS you'll savescum quiet a lot, attacking from the side or behind prevent the dodge but they will turn before you are close in to attack.......

Yes the AI as a tactical advantage and mechanic advantage.

[Lanzagranadas]

İlk olarak Durandal tarafından gönderildi:

-The turn-based-only Rank system. It force you to rush fot captures and ignore enemies at all. When you can boost a simple scout to virtual inmortality and run the entire map and capture the enemy cap in 1-2 turns battles turns into literal walks

It doesn't force you to rush at all. In fact you can A-rank missions while killing most enemies because the requirements are far from being all 1-2 turns:

Prologue: Encounter at Bruhl, 1 turn
Chap. 01: Defense of Bruhl, 2 turns
Chap. 02: Retreat from Bruhl, 3 turns
Chap. 03: West Bank of Vasel City, 1 turn
Chap. 04: Battle for the bridge, 2 turns
Chap. 05: Wildwood Warfare at Kloden, 4 turns
Chap. 06: Battle of Barious Desert, 3 turns
Chap. 07: Desert Duel with Maximilian, 9 turns
Chap. 08a: Escape from Forest Snare, 4 turns
Chap. 08b: Reunion in the Forest, 3 turns
Chap. 09: Kidnapping of Cordelia, 4 turns
Chap. 10a: Infiltration of Fouzen, 5 turns
Chap. 10b: Liberation of Fouzen, 6 turns
Chap. 11: Battle at Marberry Shore, 8 turns
Chap. 12: Recapture of Bruhl, 1 turn
Chap. 13: Showdown at Naggiar (1), 5 turns
Chap. 14: Showdown at Naggiar (2), 3 turns
Chap. 15a: Fight for Ghirlandalo, 6 turns
Chap. 15b: Selvaria's Last Stand, 8 turns
Chap. 16: Diverting the Marmota, 8 turns
Chap. 17: Breaching Jaeger's Blockade, 5 turns
Chap. 18a: Marmota's End, 5 turns
Chap. 18b: Final Showdown, 3 turns

Largo: Vegetable Route Incident, 3 turns
Alicia: Taking the Barious Highlands, 2 turns
Eleanor: Hostage Rescue Operation, 2 turns
Rosie: An End to Darcsen Hunting, 4 turns
Welkin: Guarding the Refugee Camp, 5 turns

Only one mission requires Scout rush, and that's Recapture of Bruhl. Any other missions can be A-ranked with some decent strategy.

[Deathraven13]

İlk olarak Lanzagranadas tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Durandal tarafından gönderildi:

-The turn-based-only Rank system. It force you to rush fot captures and ignore enemies at all. When you can boost a simple scout to virtual inmortality and run the entire map and capture the enemy cap in 1-2 turns battles turns into literal walks

It doesn't force you to rush at all. In fact you can A-rank missions while killing most enemies because the requirements are far from being all 1-2 turns:

Prologue: Encounter at Bruhl, 1 turn
Chap. 01: Defense of Bruhl, 2 turns
Chap. 02: Retreat from Bruhl, 3 turns
Chap. 03: West Bank of Vasel City, 1 turn
Chap. 04: Battle for the bridge, 2 turns
Chap. 05: Wildwood Warfare at Kloden, 4 turns
Chap. 06: Battle of Barious Desert, 3 turns
Chap. 07: Desert Duel with Maximilian, 9 turns
Chap. 08a: Escape from Forest Snare, 4 turns
Chap. 08b: Reunion in the Forest, 3 turns
Chap. 09: Kidnapping of Cordelia, 4 turns
Chap. 10a: Infiltration of Fouzen, 5 turns
Chap. 10b: Liberation of Fouzen, 6 turns
Chap. 11: Battle at Marberry Shore, 8 turns
Chap. 12: Recapture of Bruhl, 1 turn
Chap. 13: Showdown at Naggiar (1), 5 turns
Chap. 14: Showdown at Naggiar (2), 3 turns
Chap. 15a: Fight for Ghirlandalo, 6 turns
Chap. 15b: Selvaria's Last Stand, 8 turns
Chap. 16: Diverting the Marmota, 8 turns
Chap. 17: Breaching Jaeger's Blockade, 5 turns
Chap. 18a: Marmota's End, 5 turns
Chap. 18b: Final Showdown, 3 turns

Largo: Vegetable Route Incident, 3 turns
Alicia: Taking the Barious Highlands, 2 turns
Eleanor: Hostage Rescue Operation, 2 turns
Rosie: An End to Darcsen Hunting, 4 turns
Welkin: Guarding the Refugee Camp, 5 turns

Only one mission requires Scout rush, and that's Recapture of Bruhl. Any other missions can be A-ranked with some decent strategy.

You confirmed that you must rush a mission for obtaining a rank A, the prologue being done in 1 turn confirm it along the other stuff, a new player will never get an A rank because you need to know what will happen as in how to defeat X ennemie or what kind of ennemies you must destroy first before completing the mission.

[Metadragon]

İlk olarak Deathraven13 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Lanzagranadas tarafından gönderildi:

It doesn't force you to rush at all. In fact you can A-rank missions while killing most enemies because the requirements are far from being all 1-2 turns:



Only one mission requires Scout rush, and that's Recapture of Bruhl. Any other missions can be A-ranked with some decent strategy.

You confirmed that you must rush a mission for obtaining a rank A, the prologue being done in 1 turn confirm it along the other stuff, a new player will never get an A rank because you need to know what will happen as in how to defeat X ennemie or what kind of ennemies you must destroy first before completing the mission.

Well... after ther first time playing a map you get a feel for all that and know what steps you need to take. And... well who only plays each level once ever?

[Deathraven13]

İlk olarak Metadragon tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Deathraven13 tarafından gönderildi:

You confirmed that you must rush a mission for obtaining a rank A, the prologue being done in 1 turn confirm it along the other stuff, a new player will never get an A rank because you need to know what will happen as in how to defeat X ennemie or what kind of ennemies you must destroy first before completing the mission.

Well... after ther first time playing a map you get a feel for all that and know what steps you need to take. And... well who only plays each level once ever?

You can't replay the maps on the first playthrough and not everyone wants to deal with this game again....
VC4 did that better since they give you more time without forcing you to savescum.

[Lanzagranadas]

İlk olarak Deathraven13 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Lanzagranadas tarafından gönderildi:

Only one mission requires Scout rush, and that's Recapture of Bruhl. Any other missions can be A-ranked with some decent strategy.

You confirmed that you must rush a mission for obtaining a rank A, the prologue being done in 1 turn confirm it along the other stuff

The prologue doesn't require you to rush. You have 3CP to kill 3 guys, that's not rushing, just making every CP count.

I confirmed there's one mission that you must Scout rush (using the same Scout 3+ times in a single turn to reach the goal) for A-rank, which is lame, but just one mission doesn't represent the entire game.

İlk olarak Deathraven13 tarafından gönderildi:

a new player will never get an A rank because you need to know what will happen as in how to defeat X ennemie or what kind of ennemies you must destroy first before completing the mission.

And how is that different from any game featuring a rank system? Do you normally get perfect ranks the first time you play every game blindly and not knowing what will happen? Nearly (if not literally) every game needs to be known and played before attempting to A/S rank everything.

They hid the requirements for a reason, so everyone can play the game at their own pace without getting obsessed with doing everything perfect on every mission during a first playthrough.

[Deathraven13]

İlk olarak Lanzagranadas tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Deathraven13 tarafından gönderildi:

You confirmed that you must rush a mission for obtaining a rank A, the prologue being done in 1 turn confirm it along the other stuff

The prologue doesn't require you to rush. You have 3CP to kill 3 guys, that's not rushing, just making every CP count.

I confirmed there's one mission that you must Scout rush (using the same Scout 3+ times in a single turn to reach the goal) for A-rank, which is lame, but just one mission doesn't represent the entire game.

İlk olarak Deathraven13 tarafından gönderildi:

a new player will never get an A rank because you need to know what will happen as in how to defeat X ennemie or what kind of ennemies you must destroy first before completing the mission.

And how is that different from any game featuring a rank system? Do you normally get perfect ranks the first time you play every game blindly and not knowing what will happen? Nearly (if not literally) every game needs to be known and played before attempting to A/S rank everything.

They hid the requirements for a reason, so everyone can play the game at their own pace without getting obsessed with doing everything perfect on every mission during a first playthrough.

Yes you can get the max rank on your first try without knowing your way:
- Metal gear solid 5: TPP
- Valkyria chronicles 4
- Metal gear survive

And you can see your rank by going to objectives so you can easily see that it's all about time, it's even more obvious that only time is requiered because regular soldier kill give nothing and other ennemies give you a bonus, if regular soldiers counted it would probably have meant that the game give you a rank based on what you did like for exemple in MGS5:TPP, but no the game want you to know in advance the map and where the ennemie will be and how to finish the map........ that's bad game design especially when you must savescum because of the RNG thanks to having almost no room for error in obtaining an A rank.

Playing devil may cry 4 in a mode where you die in 1 hit but ennemies die in more hits is not a bad game design because it's a difficulty setting you chose, while in valkyria chronicles you don't have a choice, fortunatly they seem to have fixed the A rank issue in VC4.