frostbites and bleeding

[Nonbinary]

would frostbites really cause bleeding while a person is still having hypothermia? shouldnt the blood be solid if the limb is frozen, until heated up?

[glass zebra]

Frostbite only causes bleeding if the limb is lost completely. If your colonists loses a finger due to frostbite, that does not mean that their entire hand is frozen. Rimworld does not really have a complex "destroyed limb" system, so any limb that has become unusable is simply gone from the character and starts bleeding. Amputation post damage in Rimworld is usually just done with infections, but there is nothing in place with destroyed limbs.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

Frostbite only causes bleeding if the limb is lost completely. If your colonists loses a finger due to frostbite, that does not mean that their entire hand is frozen. Rimworld does not really have a complex "destroyed limb" system, so any limb that has become unusable is simply gone from the character and starts bleeding. Amputation post damage in Rimworld is usually just done with infections, but there is nothing in place with destroyed limbs.

i know, but i feel like logically if a finger or toe breaks off from frostbite, that means the attached area is just as solidly frozen and no body liquids could pour out until thawed. from a gameplay perspective, this also makes hypothermia more dangerous than heatstrokes, as there are no bodily long term effects of heatstrokes in the game. maybe there should be. coupled with the fact that campfires last for two days when fueled up, where passive coolers can stay running for almost a week, this makes hot climates relatively harmless but cold climates very unforgiving, even though they should both be more or less equally harsh. i am not only questioning this out of realism, but also out of the perspective on the game mechanics and how they compare

[glass zebra]

If the heat is really high your people will also start to burn. This is not normally meet in the game except if the room is on fire, but the mechanic is there. Cold is also much easier to handle and costs less energy and clothing effort. At wood tech is a bit different in cost, but a single campfire is usually enough to make a room warm while you often need multiple passive coolers if its really hot.

Fingers won't "break off" from frostbite as being frozen solid. The freezing damages the blood vessels etc. and the bodypart dies off. If your colonists would be in a state where their finger would turn into a solid frozen part that just breaks off, they either put their hand into liquid nitrogen or are in an environment where they would have been long dead. "Lost to frostbite" does not mean their body parts start to shatter, just as arms being shot off by pistols won't mean a bullet hit it and it got released back into the wild. It's just damaged beyond repair and Rimworld has no state of that. Anything at 0 hp is just gone.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

If the heat is really high your people will also start to burn. This is not normally meet in the game except if the room is on fire, but the mechanic is there. Cold is also much easier to handle and costs less energy and clothing effort. At wood tech is a bit different in cost, but a single campfire is usually enough to make a room warm while you often need multiple passive coolers if its really hot.

Fingers won't "break off" from frostbite as being frozen solid. The freezing damages the blood vessels etc. and the bodypart dies off. If your colonists would be in a state where their finger would turn into a solid frozen part that just breaks off, they either put their hand into liquid nitrogen or are in an environment where they would have been long dead. "Lost to frostbite" does not mean their body parts start to shatter, just as arms being shot off by pistols won't mean a bullet hit it and it got released back into the wild. It's just damaged beyond repair and Rimworld has no state of that. Anything at 0 hp is just gone.

that is true about the burning damage, i forgot about this. though playing with regular temperature settings, i dont think even the hottest biomes can cause this through weather alone, maybe unless heatwave kicks in during the hottest season. also from my experience, a campfire is both very inefficient heating up medium sized rooms as well as being very fuel demanding, where with coolers you max need three of them to put a medium-large sized room down to 17 celcius degrees. snow especially also diminishes the effect of campfires, where it would take the heatwave event to have the same noticable effect and disadvantage of coolers. two days of active campfire can feel like nothing when trying to have your colony recover from frostbites, whereas a bunch of bad things can happen in a hot biome, some that you might need to wait out, but the long duration of coolers make up for it. having to wait out a manhunting animal if you cant risk it can feel impossible in the colder climate in comparison. there is also the whole thing where coolers are always minimum 17 degrees, but its hard to avoid colonists becoming sweaty and 'sleeping in the heat' debuffs with a campfire when you try to play it safe (having two campfires active or one in a small room)

to the latter part, that is where i wonder why the destroyed imb is a bleeding wound. if the finger is still attached, but perma debilitated after thawing, then it would go destroyed but without the bleeding effect kicking in, right? i dont see how excluding frostbite damage from causing bleeding would be impossible to implement for this specific type of damage. it wont balance out the hotter climates with the cold ones in my opinion, but it would make death less likely, especially if no doctoring colonists are present

as for whether or not dusters and parkas are better than one another, the colonists have a base max threshold of 26 celcius degrees as far as i remember, dusters add around 10-20c on top of that depending on the material, so it should roughly be around 36-46 overall degree resistance. the minimum celcius unclothed is also still somewhere in the plus degrees, parkas add between 30-40 resistance on the other spectrum if not using poorly suited ingredients, so it should amount to the same on each spectrum. they also both cost the same, 80 ingredients. you can then apply extra like a cowboy hat or tuque. including the clothes beneath it should make your colonist immune even to weather events at the worst times in any biome, so i think they are worth the same in the protection they offer, also considering temperature differences. you could even say that dusters have better protection against damage, and are superior that way

[glass zebra]

There is hardly anything to balance for the biomes since stuff like frostbite is trivial to completely shut off. With simple cloth parkas and cloth toques and no other clothes humans can already survive ~-40°C without getting hypothermia or forstbite and you can reach safe values under -100°C just with clothes and you won't even see -40°C unless you are playing in a very cold place. Every part of basic clothing also adds much more cold insulation than heat insulation and the best fabric are also favouring cold insulation: Hyperweave is 26°C for heat, guinea pig is 38°C for cold. Not to mention how much easier it is to get tons of guinea pig fur. With cloth heat already start being a problem close to 60°C which even the non-extreme biomes can reach during a heatwave.

Cold will always be easier to manage for your own people, but mess up any plants while heat can hardly be battled on high values and messes up your freezers. There is also the issue with snow and dusters being better armour (in a way) etc.. They are just really different. If you wanna balance that, talking about frostbite is certainly not the right angle since it's trivial to never see that with basic clothing if you are not starting in tundra or colder. You don't even normally need parkas, but can just wear dusters in winter in mild climates.

Rimworld does not leave limbs attached. They are just gone when severely damaged. The system has just no focus on simulating that. If you really have an issue with forstbites leading to bleeding wounds, you are looking at the very end of a line of problems that lead to that issue. It's best to look further up the line and tackle that.

I can't tell you what happens in extreme extreme forstbite cases in real life since I only now extreme cases where the limbs had to be amputated or extremer cases where people just died. I do not know what happens when you walk the line between death and limbs being so damaged that they detach from the body somehow while you are still alive and am not in the mood to look up stuff like that right now. Skin being so damaged by frostbite that it starts bleeding or getting bloody blisters when it gets hotter again and blood flow start to kick in is a thing, but surely not how Rimworld does it. Rimworld also does not have necrotic tissue and stuff can just heal up from 1 hp back to 30 without any issue. There is no real need to make the system finer specifically for frostbite as it is such a rare thing to encounter and the bleeding is usually the least of your worries in the cases it does happen.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Performancer:

that is true about the burning damage, i forgot about this. though playing with regular temperature settings, i dont think even the hottest biomes can cause this through weather alone, maybe unless heatwave kicks in during the hottest season.

Burns from hot air are only possible by heating up an enclosed space with fire (from something being lit on fire, not a campfire/torch/brazier)

also from my experience, a campfire is both very inefficient heating up medium sized rooms as well as being very fuel demanding, where with coolers you max need three of them to put a medium-large sized room down to 17 celcius degrees.

I don't think there's an effectiveness difference between the two. Furthermore, they both use wood at the same rate, 10 per day, just campfires only hold 20, meaning it needs refueling more often, but also means that using a campfire as a quick and dirty solution doesn't waste as much wood since deconstructing either will lose all the wood in them.

snow especially also diminishes the effect of campfires

I don't think precipitation has any effect on heat.

there is also the whole thing where coolers are always minimum 17 degrees, but its hard to avoid colonists becoming sweaty and 'sleeping in the heat' with a campfire

Campfires likewise have a max heat of 28C, and 17C is cold enough for "slept in the cold".

as for whether or not dusters and parkas are better than one another, the colonists have a base max threshold of 26 celcius degrees as far as i remember, dusters add around 10-20c on top of that depending on the material, so it should roughly be around 36-46 overall degree resistance. the minimum celcius unclothed is also still somewhere in the plus degrees, parkas add between 30-40 resistance on the other spectrum if not using poorly suited ingredients, so it should amount to the same on each spectrum. they also both cost the same, 80 ingredients. you can then apply extra like a cowboy hat or tuque, which should make your colonist immune even to weather events at the worst times, so i think they are worth the same in the protection they offer, also considering temperature differences. you could even say that dusters have better protection against damage, and are superior that way

The general reason why dusters are considered superior is because one, they have better coverage and so protect from weapons better, and two, minimum comfortable temperature is easier to improve than maximum, since virtually all apparel improves the minimum by quite a lot more than the maximum. Dusters are one of the few good sources of maximum, while also being a decent source of the far less necessary (in most biomes) minimum.

[glass zebra]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Campfires likewise have a max heat of 28C, and 17C is cold enough for "slept in the cold".

15° is the threshold when people slept in the cold. Coolers have that 17° value so it does not trigger that. That was different in the past and the wiki still lists the passive coolers with 15°C on some pages.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

There is hardly anything to balance for the biomes since stuff like frostbite is trivial to completely shut off. With simple cloth parkas and cloth toques and no other clothes humans can already survive ~-40°C without getting hypothermia or forstbite and you can reach safe values under -100°C and you won't even see -40°C unless you are playing in ice. Every part of basic clothing also adds much more cold insulation than heat insulation and the best fabric are also favouring cold insulation: Hyperwave is 26°C for heat, guinea pig is 38°C for cold. Not to mention how much easier it is to get tons of guinea pig fur. With cloth heat already start being a problem close to 60°C which even the non-extreme biomes can reach during a heatwave.

Cold will always be easier to manage for your own people, but mess up any plants while heat can hardly be battled on high values and messes up your freezers. There is also the issue with snow and dusters being better armour (in a way) etc.. They are just really different. If you wanna balance that, talking about frostbite is certainly not the right angle since it's trivial to never see that with basic clothing if you are not starting in tundra or colder. You don't even normally need parkas, but can just wear dusters in winter in mild climates.

Rimworld does not leave limbs attached. They are just gone when severely damaged. The system has just no focus on simulating that. If you really have an issue with forstbites leading to bleeding wounds, you are looking at the very end of a line of problems that lead to that issue. It's best to look further up the line and tackle that.

I can't tell you what happens in extreme extreme forstbite cases in real life since I only now extreme cases where the limbs had to be amputated or extremer cases where people just died. I do not know what happens when you walk the line between death and limbs being so damaged that they detach from the body somehow while you are still alive and am not in the mood to look up stuff like that right now. Skin being so damaged by frostbite that it starts bleeding or getting bloody blisters when it gets hotter again and blood flow start to kick in is a thing, but surely not how Rimworld does it. Rimworld also does not have necrotic tissue and stuff can just heal up from 1 hp back to 30 without any issue. There is no real need to make the system finer specifically for frostbite as it is such a rare thing to encounter and the bleeding is usually the least of your worries in the cases it does happen.

well, keep in mind that 26 regular body temperature combined with a +15 duster means your colonist has above 50 celcius degrees protection. i looked it up now and the comfortable temperature goes from 16-26 celcius, so even if a parka adds -40 celcius isolation, the +16 comfort temp is added on top. that would mean that a parka made of muffalo fur, which is probably the best you can find in the colder areas, would give -40 celcius protection even though it states the insulation is -56c, thats assuming you can put enough muffalos down while combating frostbite. if instead forced to stick with hares, the parka only provides a cold insulation of -8c

if you happen to have good ingredients like devilstrand then the duster can reach a comfortable temperature of 56 celcius on its own, without wearing a hat or any clothes underneath

i dont know either how frostbites works, all i know is the limb would be frozen, and if it is still attached in the moment it becomes destroyed within the game, then it should not cause blood loss, at least not until thawed, like when the hypothermia returns to mild or simply there being an active fire source in the room the colonist is in. i cant think of any real life survivors recounting that they saw a trail of blood in the snow from where they came from, but it happens in rimworld, and its messy even in freezing rooms and ruins mood and morale hahah. i would personally be happy if it worked the other way

[glass zebra]

My examples with -40°C and +60°C outside temperature were all just based on cloth and outer layer + hat. No need to hunt anything. If you use better stuff than cloth or are wearing pants + shirts too, the cold insulation gets even stronger than the heat one.

[Astasia]

Limbs don't freeze solid to natural cold until you die. That's not what frostbite is as glass zebra mentioned. The freezing is on the skin layer, it damages external blood vessels, causes them to break, and often results in internal bleeding and swelling. Fingers and toes become useless, the skin turns black, but they don't break off, that's just not how it works, it requires medical amputation later to detach them before infection sets in. In RimWorld when a digit is lost to frostbite assume it is still attached but no longer functional, and the bleeding is internal where the dead blood vessels have broken off from the still functioning ones. You need to treat it to remove the husk of the digit and stop the internal bleeding.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by glass zebra:

My examples with -40°C and +60°C outside temperature were all just based on cloth and outer layer + hat. No need to hunt anything. If you use better stuff than cloth or are wearing pants + shirts too, the cold insulation gets even stronger than the heat one.

in the tundra , ice sheet and sea ice you wont be able to grow cotton. boreal forest and bog would not be a fair comparison, they are at an equal difficulty with tropical rainforest and swamps. you dont need dusters as long as the coolers are fueled during the hottest days in those biomes

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Limbs don't freeze solid to natural cold until you die. That's not what frostbite is as glass zebra mentioned. The freezing is on the skin layer, it damages external blood vessels, causes them to break, and often results in internal bleeding and swelling. Fingers and toes become useless, the skin turns black, but they don't break off, that's just not how it works, it requires medical amputation later to detach them before infection sets in. In RimWorld when a digit is lost to frostbite assume it is still attached but no longer functional, and the bleeding is internal where the dead blood vessels have broken off from the still functioning ones. You need to treat it to remove the husk of the digit and stop the internal bleeding.

i got curious to research it now and found this on a site
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/166187#symptoms

it sounds like third and fourth degree is when the colonist would have the limb destroyed. would this not mean that the blood vessels are frozen and blood clots have occured? i dont know with the internal bleeding part, but if the limb is throghoughly frozen, the blood must be clotting any internal wounds. the blood also still sprays out on the floor inside the game as if the whole limb has broken off and pours out with blood (i know this is just how it treats destroyed parts in general). i still feel like the bleeding, whether internal or external, should not kick in until the inflicted has a chance to thaw up


First-degree frostbite, or frostnip

This only affects the surface of the skin.

Early symptoms are pain and itching. The skin then develops white or yellow patches and may become numb. Due to its surface-level impact, frostnip does not usually cause permanent damage.

However, an area of skin with first-degree frostbite may lose sensitivity to heat and cold for a short period.

Second-degree frostbite

This may cause the skin to freeze and harden but does not affect the deep tissues.

After 2 days, purple blisters may develop in areas that froze. These blisters may turn black and become hard, taking 3–4 weeks to heal.

A person with second-degree frostbite who has nerve damage might experience numbness, pain, or total loss of sensation in the area. The decreased sense of heat and cold may be permanent.

Third- and fourth-degree frostbite

In people with the most severe presentations of frostbite, the damage penetrates deeper, causing deep tissue injury.

Muscles, blood vessels, nerves, and tendons freeze. The skin feels smooth and waxy. Some people may lose the use of an extremity, for example, a foot or a hand. For some people, this is permanent.

Complications

People with extreme frostbite might develop gangrene. Gangrene is the death of body tissue. Amputation may be necessary for areas that become gangrenous, such as fingers or toes, to prevent the spread of tissue death.

If the person does not receive swift treatment or if the finger, toe, or limb does not undergo amputation, gangrene may lead to disease throughout the body, which could be life-threatening.

Frostbite can lead to systemic diseases, such as disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC). In DIC, small blood clots form in the blood vessels. Cardiovascular collapse and sepsis can also occur.

[glass zebra]

If you are choosing the most extreme biomes, things get extremer. You can't get enough wood for wood coolers in extreme deserts either and just staying inside your buildings forever will not bring you far, unless you already got hydroponoics. You can even shortly grow cotton except in the most extreme of tundras. I chose cloth because it's the most basic textile that you can get in any but the most extreme biomes. Getting any kind of starter quality textile to make clothes for the new people you take in is a basic thing to do and 80 even plain leather per person is not that hard to come by and people usually don't show up naked either. It's something to take care of, but you choose to tackle that when you choose those biomes.

The bleeding lost limbs do not need to be amputated but just tended (which works flawless even without any medicine). Rimworld has no still attached yet 100% damaged limbs which can cause infections from necrotic tissue. Instead you have bleeding, which is far easier to handle. Rimworld limbs just amputate themselves when severely damaged. It's just how the game does it.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Performancer:

in the tundra , ice sheet and sea ice you wont be able to grow cotton.

There's nothing stopping you from growing cotton in tundra. You'll need to do it inside, which needs a sunlamp, but otherwise there's still soil, so you don't need hydroponics or fungal gravel.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:

Originally posted by Performancer:

in the tundra , ice sheet and sea ice you wont be able to grow cotton.

There's nothing stopping you from growing cotton in tundra. You'll need to do it inside, which needs a sunlamp, but otherwise there's still soil, so you don't need hydroponics or fungal gravel.

if that is the conditions, then electrical coolers, heaters, as well as stoves are also present, so i would not have to deal with the campfire problem at least, and wood fueled coolers would still be a more stable backup to constantly have running too, should electricity fail

glass zebra: desert and tundra looks to be compared to each other, i think both those places will provide with enough fuel for campfires and coolers respectively, and deserts have the upside of agave plants where tundras only have a narrow window of when you get berries. comparing those two i think tundra is more harsh

extreme deserts would then be comparative to sea ice. those two i would agree you are equally screwed if your colonist is not a superhuman and very lucky with events and otherwise know very specific tactics to deploy. in those cases the campfire and cooler is mostly out of this debate from the lack of wood. at least the extreme desert still provides mining opportunities if you ever find the time, and plants can survive when grown there. i feel the difficulty still tilts more towards colder climates