Practical RPM limit

[White Trash]

Love the game just wanted to add a quick point that bothers me/ crushes my dreams slightly.

The max rpm limit is set at 12K but the camshaft adjustment means if you want a decent torque curve you're limited really to around 8-9K I find. Which is still nice but..... I feel like not having realistic access to that 12K unless you're happy with a torque curve that nose dives is teasing me. I'm a big bike fan I like my high rpm where i'm getting it.

I'm not asking for higher rpm if it's causing you guys that much problems but it would be nice to have a camshaft adjustment to be able to realistically use the limit of what you've set. It makes me sad not being able to :'(
(could also be me being ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ if so then someone please let me know)

Cheers, keep up the great work, looking forward to the next update :)

[VoidSixx]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ の投稿を引用：

This is exactly what i mean effectively.

I'm not saying I would do this on every car. But there are cars out there within the realms of what this game was created to be that would mean you would expect the engines to be able to rev out that high without a torque that just nose dives. Yes the S2000, la ferrari and areial atom are not typical cars but there are enough cars out there. Especially the S2000 that was a common production car that mean you would expect to be able to reach that in game.

I'm not talking about making a 10l rev to 12K. I'm talking about being able to make a performance engines in game, rev to what not so uncommon performance engines rev to in real life. These engines are rarer but they are out there. They have DLC for V16s so i don't see why this is so far out of the realms of possibility.

As i've said. I'm not asking for an extension on the rev limit. Just the ability to use the revs they have given us as at the minute anything above 8500rpm i've never touched because the torque just nose dives. Torque reducing by 10-20% of peak torque at peak rpm is fine. But when it drops from like 100Nm to 60Nm then what's the point. You're just reving the engine for no reason what so ever.

The game is undergoing quite a few balance changes in the coming updates though so we'll see as a whole how it goes.

That's how an engine acts in real life, though. Torque rapidly drops off as you climb through the rev range. At that point, torque is irrelevant, it's all about horsepower there (which is perfectly usable if you tune your cams etc. correctly)

[White Trash]

VoidSixx の投稿を引用：

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ の投稿を引用：

This is exactly what i mean effectively.

I'm not saying I would do this on every car. But there are cars out there within the realms of what this game was created to be that would mean you would expect the engines to be able to rev out that high without a torque that just nose dives. Yes the S2000, la ferrari and areial atom are not typical cars but there are enough cars out there. Especially the S2000 that was a common production car that mean you would expect to be able to reach that in game.

I'm not talking about making a 10l rev to 12K. I'm talking about being able to make a performance engines in game, rev to what not so uncommon performance engines rev to in real life. These engines are rarer but they are out there. They have DLC for V16s so i don't see why this is so far out of the realms of possibility.

As i've said. I'm not asking for an extension on the rev limit. Just the ability to use the revs they have given us as at the minute anything above 8500rpm i've never touched because the torque just nose dives. Torque reducing by 10-20% of peak torque at peak rpm is fine. But when it drops from like 100Nm to 60Nm then what's the point. You're just reving the engine for no reason what so ever.

The game is undergoing quite a few balance changes in the coming updates though so we'll see as a whole how it goes.

That's how an engine acts in real life, though. Torque rapidly drops off as you climb through the rev range. At that point, torque is irrelevant, it's all about horsepower there (which is perfectly usable if you tune your cams etc. correctly)

Engines act how they're designed too. Engines that are designed to rev have torque high up. Yes they reach a peak torque then drop but there's a difference between loosing 10% of the peak torque figure between peak torque and redline and 40%. One has been designed to rev out that high the other is just being rev'd for the purpose of high rpm and isn't running effectively at that rpm.

Power is a function of torque and rpm. You need high torque at high rpm to make power there. If you have a torque curve that nose dives then your acceleration drastically slows as you reach the top of the revs. In a sports car i want an engine which keeps going and provides fairly constant torque until it hits the rev limit. Just having power doesn't mean you have a well optimised engine for the role your asking it to do. It needs to make the power in the way you want it too.

[White Trash]

I don't understand the objection. I'm not asking for them to make a car which revs to 20K rpm just for them to extend the adjustment for the camshafts so i can make a car which can use all of the revs they've provided us with. I'm not talking about putting a 12000rpm engine in every hatch back. There would be no point when i could make a small turbo 3 pot that would be relatively low reving in comparison and would have to turbo tuned to come in low down and make high torque at low rpm meaning it makes power at lower rpm than it might otherwise require to rev too and would do the job better than a similar engine that rev'd to stupid rpm.

[White Trash]

But if i wanted to make a car that rev'd to 12K rpm then it would be a performance car and with that in mind i would want an engine that provides as wide a useable power band as possible. For that you would want as flat as possible a torque curve so the acceleration remains constant. This is what car manufacturers do when producing performance cars. For example the torque curve on the ferrari 458 which at redline makes roughly 20% of the torque of it's peak. If you go to motorbikes it's even less and they stay very close to their peak torque figure at redline.

[White Trash]

My point is that in a game where we're supposed to be able to design cars. Why can't we design the car to perfrom in a certain way even though we have been given the option to do it.
As i said. There's no point reving out to 12K rpm because you're torque drops and all you're really doing beyond that is making lots of noise and making your engine run increasingly poorly. Whereas if that torque curve was extended further you could better utilise those revs and actually make some meaningful use of them. If we're given the option for it why haven't we been given the tools to use it like we have for all other rpm ranges we have available to us. It just seems like a strange game design choice.

[VoidSixx]

You can influence the characteristics of an engine through design, but at it's core engines behave the same way. An engine is going to lose massive amounts of torque when you hit high revers regardless of how you design it.

Power might be a function of torque and RPM, but that doesn't mean you need ridiculous torque to make power high in the rev range. If you wanted to make close to 350hp at 9,000 RPM, you'd only need about 200lb-ft of torque. You can have consistent torque to the rev limit, but you wont be able to have a crazy redline, just like a real engine. It's perfectly possible to use the full rev-range.

I can make an engine that revs to 9k and produces 200hp right at the top in about 2 minutes. No quality sliders, just bumped up cam profile etc. and it still had more to give. The torque was even relatively linear and didn't drop off until the last couple thousand revs. I think the issues you are experiencing might be with the engineer, and not the game.

Nobody is objecting having usable high-reving engines. People are objecting changing the game to be less realistic to compensate for one person's ignorance.

[White Trash]

VoidSixx の投稿を引用：

You can influence the characteristics of an engine through design, but at it's core engines behave the same way. An engine is going to lose massive amounts of torque when you hit high revers regardless of how you design it.

Power might be a function of torque and RPM, but that doesn't mean you need ridiculous torque to make power high in the rev range. If you wanted to make close to 350hp at 9,000 RPM, you'd only need about 200lb-ft of torque. You can have consistent torque to the rev limit, but you wont be able to have a crazy redline, just like a real engine. It's perfectly possible to use the full rev-range.

I can make an engine that revs to 9k and produces 200hp right at the top in about 2 minutes. No quality sliders, just bumped up cam profile etc. and it still had more to give. The torque was even relatively linear and didn't drop off until the last couple thousand revs. I think the issues you are experiencing might be with the engineer, and not the game.

Nobody is objecting having usable high-reving engines. People are objecting changing the game to be less realistic to compensate for one person's ignorance.

You're talking ♥♥♥♥ mate. First off i'm quite clearly not the only person who would like some adjustment/ change to the way the valvetrain aggressiveness works.

Secondly engines all have a similar shape torque curve in that it peaks and then goes down again because engines are built for a purpose and by their narture tend to be optimised for an rpm range. Where that plateau and peak are, make the difference and make the difference between an economy engine and a performace one. Bike engines have peak torque at 10,000rpm or above because they're designed for that as they're performance engines. They don't just want a certain amount of power but also a useable power band at high rpm which is where it's designed to be run. To have that useable power band you need a plateauing torque curve or an area with a relatively flat torque curve. If it dives and your power stops increasing then you may as well shift up gear. In which case why would you make an engine to rev that high if it has no benefit.

This isn't a question of if there aren't engines that can do what i'm saying as there clearly are, be it in bikes, some performace cars and they have a stable torque curve at these high rpms. It takes 10 seconds to go on google and search "cars that rev to 10000rpm and you get plenty of cars that defintely weren't one offs that did this. This is a question of, we have the option to rev that high in game however we are arbitarily limited by the available adjustment in the game.

[VoidSixx]

You clearly have no interest in learning, and now you're getting aggressive and being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Clearly I'm wasting my time with you. We're done here.

[White Trash]

LOL don't really see how i'm getting aggressive. You've been making a null points or one that aren't particularly related to what i'm talking about. If you'd said I don't think it's worth putting in the game then fair enough but saying that there's no engines ever in production vehicles that have that kind of behavior is just plain wrong.

[SpacesuitSPF9000]

Road and Track did an article of the highest revving production cars. The top 2 used motorcycle engines.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/g6599/highest-revving-production-cars/?slide=1

It looks like 9250rpm is the very top of the range for production car engines (even then less than 500 were made). You might want to look at the hp/torque graph for a Ferrari LaFerrari to get a better idea of the realism for this game.

And I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the only other person on this thread that agreed with you about having the devs make adjustments was talking about a 11k rev limit from a 4AGE engine. The only places that engine did 11k was in a cartoon and on a racetrack.

[Killrob]

Jupp, it is correct to say that no factory cars ever really used engines even going beyond 10k RPM, apart from those rare exceptions of a handful of cars using motorcycle engines, i.e. stuff that Automation isn't about. Hence our current RPM limit is VERY generous and in hindsight we should have limited it to 10k, as it is really messy to get good sounds for it beyond that limit.

[White Trash]

Killrob の投稿を引用：

Jupp, it is correct to say that no factory cars ever really used engines even going beyond 10k RPM, apart from those rare exceptions of a handful of cars using motorcycle engines, i.e. stuff that Automation isn't about. Hence our current RPM limit is VERY generous and in hindsight we should have limited it to 10k, as it is really messy to get good sounds for it beyond that limit.

No i agree it is generous as is. But even if we go by the rpm of those cars getting a torque curve that takes you all the way out to 10K and doesn't still nose dive isn't something you can particularly do. If you did move the rev limit back to 10 I wouldn't particularly mind but at the minute there's the top end of those revs that you can't really use. Or there's just no benefit/ point to use unless the adjustment was extended.

This was never an issue of whether it was common or not. I know it's not. But if it's in the game that suggests that it's within what the developers would want you to do. So the fact we don't have the adjustment to really use it was the issue i was picking up on. If there rev limit was brought back to 10 with just a tad more adjustment added i wouldn't mind at all. But if it's there and we can't use it so to speak that's when it becomes a bit frustrating.

[Killrob]

That is fair enough a criticism, yes, 110 cam profile would be required to use the full rev range really, but you can make smaller engines peak around 10.5k already (and with specific turbo setups higher) with 100 cam, which I think at least is reasonable. We don't want to negatively affect granularity of the slider either, so just widening the range wouldn't be good. Overall it really isn't much of an issue for the core game, its more of a "sandbox problem" :D cheers!

[MR_rondini]

"there is no production engine that goes beyond 9500 rpm"

cosworth just made a 6.5L V12 that revs to 11.000 rpm and has peak power at 10.500 that will go to 150 road cars so...

[Killrob]

MR_rondini の投稿を引用：

"there is no production engine that goes beyond 9500 rpm"

cosworth just made a 6.5L V12 that revs to 11.000 rpm and has peak power at 10.500 that will go to 150 road cars so...

so... you recognize that car isn't on the road yet (i.e. not a production car yet), we've almost reached the end of the game (2020), AND this is just one exception? ;) I don't see much of a good case here.