Is weapon leveling useless?

[Stitch]

I'm in chapter 11, somewhere around Cieth mission 14. I almost don't level up my weapons, but yet I don't have much problems defeating bosses. I think the stats you're getting from crystarium are much more important.

[talgaby]

It's not the stat that counts, but the synergies and the effects. The Tier 2 effect of Fang's and Vanille's SAB weapons for example can put 3-8 debuffs on a single enemy on turn one with their hugely increased connect chance. Sazh's SYN and stagger and Hope's SYN weapon can pretty much give you perpetual buffs even for long fights. Snow's SEN-related weapons make him even more of a damage sponge until Lightning can take over the role of primary SEN at Stage 10. (Or is it Stage 9?)

[tiornys]

Weapon upgrading isn't necessary, but it's far from useless. It tends to be more powerful the less leveling up you do, but even at max levels the stats are relevant. Raising, say, Lightning's Gladius to max in chapter 9 gives you +150 Strength at a time when she's barely touching 200 Strength naturally. Similarly, transforming Gladius to Helter-Skelter and maxing it in early chapter 11 gives her another +273 Strength (total +423) at a point where that likely doubles her natural Strength. Even in late chapter 11 with CP grinding, that's something like a 50% boost.

Originally posted by talgaby:

It's not the stat that counts, but the synergies and the effects.

I don't agree. Some of the synergies and effects are very good, such as those on the Axis Blade, Antares Deluxes, Belladonna Wand, Pandoran Spear, Paladin, and Umbra. Others sound way more impressive on paper than they work out to be in practice. These include the Spica Defenders and Vidofnir--the extended buff times aren't all that useful--and especially the highly overrated Procyons and Lionheart, both of which do almost nothing.

Even in the cases of weapons with great abilities, stats matter. Axis Blade has perhaps the best weapon ability in the game, but it has such terrible stats (at such a high upgrading cost) that it's not really worth upgrading it. Lightning's best weapons--as measured by evaluating which weapons enable the most efficient battles--after upgrading are her Edged Carbine and Gladius (partly because of their excellent stat boosts, partly because they unbalance her stats which helps her AI).

Similarly, Pandoran Spear's ability rocks, but Fang's best weapons are her Taming Pole (for the stats) and Dragonhorn (for the massive +Strength without drawbacks). Conversely, Belladonna Wand actually is Vanille's best weapon because it has very good +Magic in addition to the excellent ability. Hope's best weapon is the Hawkeye (stats).

The discussion of Sazh's and Snow's best weapons gets more muddled, but that's largely due to the power of high stat boosts. Sazh's Pleiadies Hi-Powers, for example, offer a whopping +1,140 Strength if transformed into Hyades Magnums and maxed. That's more of a boost than most maxed ultimate weapons. Sure, there's no boost to his Magic and the weapon reduces his max HP, but those tradeoffs are frequently worthwhile.

Lightning can take over the role of primary SEN at Stage 10. (Or is it Stage 9?)

Against physically based single-targeting enemies, Lightning is the best SEN as soon as she learns Elude, which is technically available as soon as secondary roles open up. Against any other enemies--i.e. those with magical attacks and/or those with multi-character attacks--Lightning never even matches Fang, even at max Crystarium. Snow is just completely untouchable as the premier SEN for most scenarios throughout the entire game, and his Paladin and Umbra are a big part of that.

[Caplion]

Stats make you have shorter target time, that make you harder to 5 star a battle. But the dmg per hit is increases. Increasing a weapon level is depend what you need. Either you want a more powerful version of weapon possitive effect or weaker weapon negative effect or its stats but not synthesis on tier 3 weapon. all tier 3 weapon (star) have highest stats overall but no synthesis effect the otherhand, also they give you an extra bar of ATB. Fang is absolutely need a tier 3 weapon and genji glove for her ultimate skill "highwing" to reach 999,999 per hit total of 3 hits.

also, tier 2 weapon have different look in battle, one version on all tier 3 weapon of each character but weapon effect will not the same if you have 2 tier 3 weapon updraged from different effect base weapon, example Kain's Lance (stagger lock), Kain's Lance (improve debilitation II) and stats is differents but they look same in battle.

[talgaby]

I'd say it largely depends on what main and secondary roles you assign to the various characters. For example Sazh for me is a SYN and RAV, so I either try to put an emphasis on his boosts, or try to increase his staggering ability when he switches to RAV. Using him as a damage dealer is completely irrelevant.
Same as Fang. Her Pain/Fog/Slow combo can essentially render most enemies helpless, sometimes completely crippled in 1-4 rounds, making life easier, sometimes even leading to faster fights, since the chance of being knocked out of an attack animation gets to zero. And for that sacrificing 10-40% damage feels like an excellent tradeoff.
For Hope it's true, I just try to go for pure Magic-boosting. Good for buff maintenance (well, slightly) and healing with the Cure/Cura combo, until he falls off as medic. (By the way, thanks for the tip on using Snow as MED…)
Vanille… deprotect, deshell, imperil and sometimes poison on first round? Sold. Even if the Tier 3 weapon had 0/0 boost on it, I'd use it. It is almost frightening how mush the dps potential increases with her vulnerability debuffs and Sazh's initial buffs combined.

[tiornys]

Originally posted by talgaby:

I'd say it largely depends on what main and secondary roles you assign to the various characters. For example Sazh for me is a SYN and RAV

Just from this, it looks like I think about the game quite a bit differently than you do. Even if I plan to primarily use Sazh as a SYN and RAV, I will also make use of his COM role in paradigms designed for heavy damage output. No matter how bad (or good) I think his COM role is when compared to other characters, he's in the party and his COM is better than his RAV at damage output. Consequently, his stats do matter to me (heck, they even matter somewhat when he's a RAV, especially against enemies who are--or can be made--weak against Fire or Lightning).

This is true for every character and every role they possess, and that includes opening up secondary roles early if I can do so cheaply and effectively. Lightning may suck as a MED compared to everyone else, but if I'm making a healing paradigm and she's in the party, I'd need a very good reason to not make Lightning a MED in that paradigm. She may be slow as molasses at healing, but she does contribute direct healing AND she also makes the other MEDs better through her secondary role bonus and through character chain boosting.

I teach Ruin to Hope as soon as possible (it's only 6000 CP!) so that I can leverage his Magic stat in the COM role. Yeah, he's a pretty cruddy one-dimensional COM at that point, but even a cruddy one-dimensional COM has massively higher DPS than a RAV at this point (En-spells for the win!). Also, his secondary bonus helps out the whole party.

I teach Fire and Thunder to Fang relatively early (24,000 CP is a significant investment, but not that bad on the scale of stage 8 costs) so that I have access to Tri-disaster in parties that use her. Yeah, her RAV damage sucks (being based on her Magic) and she's lacking a lot of RAV abilities, but even a level 1 RAV builds chain faster than any other role and that's mostly what I care about when I have RAVs in the battle. Insert obligatory comment about secondary role bonuses here.

I absolutely agree that the SAB abilities are awesome and that landing them quicker is also awesome (and you're welcome re: Snow's MED).

[Caplion]

i suggest save everyone cp in bank after they fight their eidolon, if you think u wont use him anymore to prevent their stats go any futher up, only up your main use characters. when the cp bank almost reach 999,999cp, spent it some. this will help getting longer target time, 5 star easier

[Scarlet Crusade]

Up until Taejin's Tower (if that), pretty much. It's much more cost effective to upgrade accessories early and mid game, until you unlock R&D Depot and the ability to farm on Gran Pulse... and at Taejin's Tower, the only weapons I think worth upgrading are Axis Blade, Belladonna Wand, and Pandoran Spear, as they'll get you through to the end of the game at base Tier 2, maxed (but NOT upgraded to Tier 3, especially not Enkindler) if you want, but not really necessary as long as they're Tier 2. Stack +ATB accessories on Lightning and Speed/Energy Sash + Catalog on Vanille and Fang (for Random: Instant Chain) and you're golden.

[☂Aqua☂]

I Upgraded my Gladius to Helter-Skelter and Deneb Duellers to Canopus AMP's and they are very good,and I think upgrading is very useful,they give you higher strength or magic and these effects that are very useful.
Yes upgrading is very expensive but that's the price for something better and later you can get a lot of GIL.
Next weapon I will upgrade is Belladonna Wand

[talgaby]

Originally posted by tiornys:

Just from this, it looks like I think about the game quite a bit differently than you do.

Yeah, looks like it. ^^ I think about the fights as strategy game battles, with the characters having primary, secondary and backup roles. For example when I use RAV×3, Fang's only role as RAV is to add in the RAV chain bonus, not actual damage. Likewise Sazh as COM only contributes his multiplier and some additional damage, but his damage output is inconsequential compared to what Fang, Lightning, Hope or Snow does.
Or could say Lightning as SYN. She only needs to add in her two-three not so important spells that in the large picture only make the casting period slightly shorter, since the other SYNs will skip those in their chains. But it seems to be worth to sacrifice her role for the slightly reduced buff-up period.

[NightDreamer]

I dont think i have time farming Gills, buying parts and upgrades,

If its useless to updgrade, i'm very glad.

[Stitch]

Whoah, I didn't expect so many answers. Thank you all for them! I'll read them all and think about that.

[Daeoc]

Not worth it until towards the end of the game, imo.

[tiornys]

Originally posted by talgaby:

Yeah, looks like it. ^^ I think about the fights as strategy game battles, with the characters having primary, secondary and backup roles. For example when I use RAV×3, Fang's only role as RAV is to add in the RAV chain bonus, not actual damage. Likewise Sazh as COM only contributes his multiplier and some additional damage, but his damage output is inconsequential compared to what Fang, Lightning, Hope or Snow does.

I agree with the fights being highly strategic, but I don't agree with the way you break down the roles for each character. When I create a paradigm, I have a specific plan (or plans) for that paradigm, and each character in that paradigm is going to be assigned the role that best supports that plan.

If I'm building chain, of course Fang is going to be a RAV (if available). I don't really care about anyone's damage in that paradigm because that's not the point of a chain-building paradigm. However, if I have Sazh as a COM in a damage-dealing paradigm, then I care about him contributing damage. If he's not contributing a significant level of damage, something is wrong with my pre-battle setup and/or my in-battle execution.