The logics of flak vs. fighters in space

[Wandering Mania]

So I was thinking. How in the hell would flak even be usefull against fighters in space? If you where to fly a fighter craft that was space worthy. The engines would be rocket boosters, and thus have no 'intake port'. In-turn making flack weapontry obsolete. As the whole premice of flak is to fire a shell that is loaded with dirt to clog an aircraft's engines.

For any craft to be space worthy it must be airtight, and any kind of propulsion that would work in the vacuum of space would be immune to flak wepontry. As they would not need and/or have any use for, an intake.
So where is the logic of having flak weapons that have any other effect than killing rockets or torpedos?

For the people who can't read any replies before posting repeatedly answered remarks;

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

Originally posted by sayerglasgow:

Where on earth did you hear that the purpose of flak was to scatter dirt to clog intakes?

Hear? No whare. Saw pictures of shells fired. And the below explains why to me it looked like dirt.

Originally posted by XarisD:

Finally, in WW2 the flak round was a overpowdered explosive that was to serve a dual purpose. If a plane was close enough when the round when off, the metal would shred the plane's hull, shatter windshields to kill pilots, etc. Even if it missed, though, the sheer amount of gunpowder would hang in the air and provide a visual obstacle for pilots. They could fly through it or go around it, but it blocked their vision and the cloud COULD clog intakes. This could result in secondary explosions as the plane's engine ignited gunpowder that was still viable, or from overheating due to lack of airflow. Flak was nasty business, but no, it wasn't dirt. That was gunpowder, my friend. The shrapnel came from the large shell casing when it exploded, and in a lot of cases it would be packed with ball bearings making it a sort of shotgun shell. These rounds were launched with an internal fuse that got lit when the cannon's hammer mechanism struck the blasting cap upon launch. This ensured they'd be at the desired altitude, but as you'll see in old war movies the flak clouds would be higher or lower. This is because unlike Rebel Galaxy, the fuses would burn at different rates thanks to the way the real world works. Rarely does any invention go exactly as planned!

[Mad2Ex]

I always thought in space FLACK was to spread smallish solid things over an area and let the oncoming (missiles, torps, fighters) Inertial Velocity do the rest.

[Cookie]

"Flack" has absolutely nothing to do with anti-aircraft fire. And the original flugzeugabwehrkanone (flak for short) has nothing to do with dirt. Where did you even get that idea?

[Doctor G]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

So I was thinking. How in the hell would flack even be usefull against fighters? If you where to fly a fighter craft that was space worthy. The engines would be rocket boosters, and thus have no 'intake port'. In-turn making flack weapontry obsolete. As the whole premice of flack is to fire a shell that is loaded with dirt to clog an aircraft's engines.

For any craft to be space worthy it must be airtight, and any kind of propulsion that would work in the vacuum of space would be immune to flack wepontry. As they would not need and/or have any use for, an intake.
So where is the logic of having flack weapons that have any other effect than killing rockets or torpedos?

no you need to use your logic to look up the word Flack shot, then Look up the word Logic.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by Cookie:

"Flack" has absolutely nothing to do with anti-aircraft fire. And the original flugzeugabwehrkanone (flak for short) has nothing to do with dirt. Where did you even get that idea?

Flak (disambiguation)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Flak typically refers to anti-aircraft guns, derived during World War II from the German Flugabwehrkanone, for "aircraft defence cannon". Original derived from 'Flugabwehrgeschütz'.
Flak may also refer to:
Flak jacket, protective clothing worn by soldiers and others to protect themselves from debris and shrapnel

Debris and shrapnal, hence the dirt. There I did what you asked and it proved you wrong. Any questions?

[Kurek]

The entire premise of anti-aircraft artillery (flak) is not to 'fire a shell that is loaded with dirt to clog an aircraft's engines', it's to explode near the plane, or less commonly score a direct hit, and send thousands of small bits of metal (shrapnel) to shred the living crap out of everything. An engine taking many such hits will become damaged and destroyed not because its air intakes are clogged up, but because many working components have been seriously damaged or have caught on fire. A direct hit would be even more catastrophic.

Also damage to other parts of the plane, the control surfaces, fuel tanks, fuel lines, mechanical linkages and also injuries or death to crewmembers would occur.

Think of it more like a big shotgun blast but in all directions instead of in a cone facing forwards. Search on google image for flak damage or even specific planes + flak damage to see the effects. planes limping home with massive holes ripped into them, engines in tatters and so forth.

Here's a photograph of an engine of a Lancaster bomber that took some quite serious flak damage to get you started https://i.imgur.com/9RkHqEU.jpg

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by Kurek:

The entire premise of anti-aircraft artillery (flak) is not to 'fire a shell that is loaded with dirt to clog an aircraft's engines', it's to explode near the plane, or less commonly score a direct hit, and send thousands of small bits of metal (shrapnel) to shred the living crap out of everything. An engine taking many such hits will become damaged and destroyed not because its air intakes are clogged up, but because many working components have been seriously damaged or have caught on fire. A direct hit would be even more catastrophic.

Also damage to other parts of the plane, the control surfaces, fuel tanks, fuel lines, mechanical linkages and also injuries or death to crewmembers would occur.

Think of it more like a big shotgun blast but in all directions instead of in a cone facing forwards. Search on google image for flak damage or even specific planes + flak damage to see the effects. planes limping home with massive holes ripped into them, engines in tatters and so forth.

Here's a photograph of an engine of a Lancaster bomber that took some quite serious flak damage to get you started https://i.imgur.com/9RkHqEU.jpg

Okay then need more guidence on the premice. This may be a Hollywood dramatzation but the concept is solid. https://youtu.be/RYi7wNLZxBA

A real life case is here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

Now that may say that the "cause is unknown", but any one with a brain can figure out that if you clog the intake it can and will jam vital componants and it can also cause the fule line to get cloged. Causing a loss of foward momentum with the gravity of earth that usually results in a crash, with gravity taking over.

Now while shrapnal may also be in a flak shell unless you hit a fighter in space directly with that "shotgun blast" with X/Y/Z maneuvering and in zero gravity to avoid a flak shot all the pilot has to do is stop, go in the X direction then resume course.

That also gets me thinking about how any kind of projectial wepon has a set range in this game. If you fire a projectial in space it would keep going until it hits something. Newton's first law of motion explains that; "An object in motion will stay in motion until acted on by an external force" A.K.A. until it hits something.

[Cookie]

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

Originally posted by Cookie:

"Flack" has absolutely nothing to do with anti-aircraft fire. And the original flugzeugabwehrkanone (flak for short) has nothing to do with dirt. Where did you even get that idea?

Flak jacket, protective clothing worn by soldiers and others to protect themselves from debris and shrapnel

Debris and shrapnal, hence the dirt. There I did what you asked and it proved you wrong. Any questions?

Yes, you 'proved me wrong' by sharing with me things I already knew, like that the flak jacket was named after the German high explosive cannons it was designed to protect against, and not anything related to dirt. Thanks!

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by Cookie:

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

Flak jacket, protective clothing worn by soldiers and others to protect themselves from debris and shrapnel

Debris and shrapnal, hence the dirt. There I did what you asked and it proved you wrong. Any questions?

Yes, you 'proved me wrong' by sharing with me things I already knew, like that the flak jacket was named after the German high explosive cannons it was designed to protect against, and not anything related to dirt. Thanks!

Can you read the post before yours? Or are you blind as well as dumb? Here I'll quote myself in this one for you.

Originally posted by Wandering Mania:

Okay then need more guidence on the premice. This may be a Hollywood dramatzation but the concept is solid. https://youtu.be/RYi7wNLZxBA

A real life case is here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

Now that may say that the "cause is unknown", but any one with a brain can figure out that if you clog the intake it can and will jam vital componants and it can also cause the fule line to get cloged. Causing a loss of foward momentum with the gravity of earth that usually results in a crash, with gravity taking over.

Now while shrapnal may also be in a flak shell unless you hit a fighter in space directly with that "shotgun blast" with X/Y/Z maneuvering and in zero gravity to avoid a flak shot all the pilot has to do is stop, go in the X direction then resume course.

That also gets me thinking about how any kind of projectial wepon has a set range in this game. If you fire a projectial in space it would keep going until it hits something. Newton's first law of motion explains that; "An object in motion will stay in motion until acted on by an external force" A.K.A. until it hits something.

[Zidders 'Rockin' Bard' Roofurry]

OK folks. Really no need to be dismissive or insulting towards one another. 'Flak' weapons in this game act as both countermeasures against missiles and additional damage when along side and close to large ships. The whole reason it's called 'flak' has more to do with how this sort of weaponry is traditionally (and most often mistakenly) referred to in games of this kind than any relation to real world flak weaponry. In other words it's silly arcade game terminology and not meant to be taken seriously since it in no way resembles anything real.

[Cookie]

No, it definitely resembles high explosive shells.

[Battle Puppet]

Also, specifically considering the various challenges and non-sequiturs of space combat, any type of flak inspired weapon ostensibly for use as defense against approaching or maneuvering small attack craft would quickly prove to be somewhat of a letdown in initial testing as the high velocity kill materiel would create a literal storm of death and dismemberment streaking in all directions out to astounding range. Initial casualties would be likely the observation ships or installations, anything not behind capital class armor belting, and most sensory arrays. Secondary casualties would likely be reported for the next several years in the immediate environment depending on prevailing exterior cladding schemes, proximity and free access to regions of travel or habitation and overall density of habitual occupation.

Like my favorite professor used to say during my college years: "oh my..."

[Battle Puppet]

Interestingly, Wandering Mania, your initial proclamation serves the greater interest in this case and so may be declared as a sound conclusion to the line of inquiry.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by Exo Datum:

Also, specifically considering the various challenges and non-sequiturs of space combat, any type of flak inspired weapon ostensibly for use as defense against approaching or maneuvering small attack craft would quickly prove to be somewhat of a letdown in initial testing as the high velocity kill materiel would create a literal storm of death and dismemberment streaking in all directions out to astounding range. Initial casualties would be likely the observation ships or installations, anything not behind capital class armor belting, and most sensory arrays. Secondary casualties would likely be reported for the next several years in the immediate environment depending on prevailing exterior cladding schemes, proximity and free access to regions of travel or habitation and overall density of habitual occupation.

Like my favorite professor used to say during my college years: "oh my..."

Originally posted by Exo Datum:

Interestingly, Wandering Mania, your initial proclamation serves the greater interest in this case and so may be declared as a sound conclusion to the line of inquiry.

Finally some one that can see what I am trying to explain. Thank you.

[Cookie]

Not really. I think you all forget the inverse-square law. That applies to any expanding volume, not just light. By the time that flak explosion has moved a couple sm, it's already diluted to the point of no effect. Look at how little damage flak does to fighters in the first place.

The only silly thing about flak secondaries is the lack of friendly fire. You shouldn't just be able to spam explosives around your ship without worrying about your allies getting too close.

[Wandering Mania]

Originally posted by Cookie:

Not really. I think you all forget the inverse-square law. That applies to any expanding volume, not just light. By the time that flak explosion has moved a couple sm, it's already diluted to the point of no effect. Look at how little damage flak does to fighters in the first place.

The only silly thing about flak secondaries is the lack of friendly fire. You shouldn't just be able to spam explosives around your ship without worrying about your allies getting too close.

Have you tried doing that? The only thing it does is keep 5 or 6 missles out of a possible of 50 off you. That is unless you are in a small frigate, anything bigger and the secondary flak becomes useless because it fires so far out and the shhip turns to slow to catch everything.
Flak against fighters is useless no matter what.