Communism granting +10% productivity and other logical flaws

[El Guapo]

What logical flaws did you notice yet?
The government bonuses don't make too much sense.
Of all types, "Communism" increases production??? That's the government type that lowers productivity due to the lack of private entrepreneurship. "Communism" should probably increase order and espionage rather than productivity.
"Facism" increasing unit production. Let's say WW2 Italy, Germany and Japan are considered to be fascist in the Civ6 sense. Italy wasn't productive at all and Germany was mostly over-engineering her weaponry and only started to get decent production numbers when Speer streamlined production. IMHO "Facism" should rather increase combat strength to reflect Germany's and Japan's efficiency on the battlefield.

What else could be improved?

[Martin]

Escrito originalmente por Dayve:

I think these government policy things should have positives and negatives. That would add more depth than everything simply giving you something better than before. For example, let's use Communism and the increased productivity bonus.

Communism has historically given countries a huge production bonus in times of crisis. The Soviets in WW2 is a good example, China's "great leap forward" is another example, where steel production exploded thanks to pretty much the whole Chinese population starting to produce steel.

But this wasn't just a bonus for each country. In gaining this massive increase in production, they sacrificed elsewhere. In Soviet Russia, a colossal civilian workforce were dedicated to building military equipment. Those civilians couldn't be used for anything else, such as farming or whatever, so other areas of the country suffered.

Mao, leader of China, in his infinite wisdom, forced most of the country to start producing steel, even farmers. So China ended up with a humongous surplus of steel to use domestically and sell as export. That's good, right? Except the steel was probably the worst quality steel in all of history, totally useless in any first world nation as it simply doesn't meet even our lowest standards. Also, since so many farmers were forced to stop farming and start making steel, the country suffered one of the worst famines in all of history. Tens of millions starved to death. Villages were literally boiling grass to make stew. Some people turned to cannibalism.

So... this government policy in Civ, it should give you a production bonus, but it should also have a drawback. People should have to think about things before they get it, not just "click here to be more powerful than you were before".

+1 Totally agree.

[PFN_LIST_CORRUPT]

I was gonna confront OP with the China's Great Leap Forward Campaign instance. But after I saw those comments posted before me, I changed my mind.

China's Great Leap Forward, as we all knew now is an utter failure. But the government is not the one whom should take full responsibility as the Communism society is dictated by the proletarians, which IS the majority population. The dictatorship is Chinese people.

At the second session of the 8th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, the leadership, which in this case is the Chinese Communist Party, had drafted the second Five-Year Plan: Unite all people in China including the Party, boost Chinese industry to surpass the British industry in less than 15 years. And so the plan and some tiny goals of success has been made. BUT before that, the Chinese Communist Party had already suggested that they need their food production increased. However this is the first time they've decided to go for both of them.

The starving occurs not only because the leadership had made an unrealistic plan, goals almost impossible to achieve. During this campaign of the huge production leap, the Chinese people had failed to see their reality and more importantly they started to send in report with the fake statistic production number (mostly the food production number) and created a fake prosperity. This had become a trend cross through the entire nation and you already know what happened after that. Damage had already be done way before the leadership noticed it.

When we look at this case, surely the production had increased drastically but not because of
"Communism", or more precisely, the "Marxism". It went up becuase of the leadership had false plan and Chinese people blindly followed them. In fact, none are these nation had reached the final stage the Communism. Not France, Russia, nor China. It had been and will be remaining a primary constuctive stage for a very long time, and the final stage is pretty much the very meaning of Utopia. Marxism had never taught people how to achieve and how he came up with these theories, this CAN'T be a logical proof for the amount of production increase. Thus I do agree with the OP saying :

Escrito originalmente por El Guapo:

"Communism" should probably increase order and espionage rather than productivity.

and:

Escrito originalmente por El Bearsidente:

China's productivity only went up when they opened the market. When it was under full party control their productivity was abysmal. Take the Great Leap Forward. It was a complete disaster.

[Waeress]

I'll just say it's not as easy to look at how things have played out in our history when we look at these things.
No example of these states have lived in a vacuum, and what happened in the world around them had effect on how they did, to a more or less degree.
Many issues can be attributed to f.e. trade embargoes and the like, but that wouldn't have the same effect in a world with f.e. a majority of communist states.

So, since Civ is not playing our collective history all over again, but playing an "alternate reality" many things can't be judged by the basis on how they have played out in our actual history.

[Slimane]

Escrito originalmente por hermanssoon:

It is a game, thats why. Not a history lesson. Debating communism and fascism on the steam forums is probably a very very good and sane idéa. *not really*

Welcome to every thread on the internet. Where every discussion is hijacked and becomes a hitler/religion/politics debate.

[Fņŏŕď]

Escrito originalmente por Grey0n3:

communism is considered productive due to planned economy role
faschism - lets say due to forced mobilization

no logical flaws here...

Communism increasing productivity is a joke. The only thing Communism ever produced was corpses.

[extra rice]

Considering Stalin transformed the Soviet Union from an agricultural state to industrial world superpower in under 50 years, I dont see an issue. "Socialism in one country" is all about building up domestic industry and defence.

[Sugam]

maybe it would have been more realistic if they gave you an unchangable option on what that 10% goes into but you get somthing like -5% on everything else and switching brought about some kind of temp drawback.

I gave up on the idea of expecting to find thigns to be realistic in civ6 after I learned of its staff. Not saying the game itself will be bad, I hope it will be good but the creativity/thoughts does show in this title.

[wuss]

Looking forward to these so called "realistic" goverment type mods, if anyone willing to make them. To me, regardless of the name and types, they're just numbers and bonuses to be abused and take advantage of for your civs. Historical accuracy be damned.

[GM Pax]

There is a difference between economic productivity, and industrial productivity.

Communist countries, until their economies faltered, enjoyed massive advantages in terms of pure industrial output. Of course, the over-emphasis on industry rather than innovation is part of what eroded their economies. Not to say there was NO innovation, just .... it was less-emphasised than in a capitalist society, where just about everyone wants to be the guy to have "the next great idea", and get rich from it.

But while their economies kept going (and before modern automation supercharged base efficiency in the west) ... their industrial capacity was pretty amazing.

[Nelson Brockes]

China is a compartimentalized liberal-commie State.

[washu73]

The soviets managed some pretty amazing levels of production in WW2 once they overcome their initial inertia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

[Greygamer]

Russia/Soviet Union historically has often fallen behind the West in technology and had to go through a period of playing catching up.

It was Trotsky and not Stalin that was behind the Industrial masterplan but he ignored the threat of Stalin until it was too late.

If fascist Germany had not been expansionist maybe they would have won the space race (if they could afford to bankroll it) and that government type would now probably get a science boost. The trouble is fascist governments in Europe were only dominant for a very short period so it is difficult to say if they would always be expansionist beyond being based on nationalism (leading to xenophobia).

Maybe the choice should be between democratic, totalitarian and some kind of hybrid. Ultimately is just a game mechanic in the same way religion is

[TopDoge]

Escrito originalmente por donald23:

Let's all be sure to keep this about game mechanics, and not real world politics. Thank you!

I don't see how you could possibly remove real world politics from the conversation when the game mechanics are literally rooted in real world politics.

As for the point at hand, personally I'd prefer what Dayve suggested, to see disadvantages alongside the bonuses for perks like these.

[Grimmrog_SIG]

Escrito originalmente por El Guapo:

What logical flaws did you notice yet?
The government bonuses don't make too much sense.
Of all types, "Communism" increases production??? That's the government type that lowers productivity due to the lack of private entrepreneurship. "Communism" should probably increase order and espionage rather than productivity.
"Facism" increasing unit production. Let's say WW2 Italy, Germany and Japan are considered to be fascist in the Civ6 sense. Italy wasn't productive at all and Germany was mostly over-engineering her weaponry and only started to get decent production numbers when Speer streamlined production. IMHO "Facism" should rather increase combat strength to reflect Germany's and Japan's efficiency on the battlefield.

What else could be improved?

because capitalism is badly targetted priductivity. thats why. to much competition to much overprodution of stuff no one needs. A real communism would be more productive because there is not ressources put in unenecessary projects or redudancy or inner market competition.
a capitalistic economy does things also only when the profit is given, which emans many things wouldn't even been done if no one offers enough moniez.

if the commuism says: build that, it will be built. if a capitalistic market wants something build stuff will be called for bids and companies selected who want to do the job, blah blah blah etc and stuff.

[MegaChill]

when i lack evidence or points for my history essay all i do is come to a civ forum and take some info with me