My thoughts on "demon Snake" and the nature of demon points

[Neonwarrior]

My Snake's been Demon Snake for a LOOOONG time now. First I achieved demon Snake status by the time I beat the game just from the amount of people I killed over the course of like 82 hours, then I developed a nuclear weapon (which adds 50,000 demon points compared to the 60 you get from killing someone, instantly making you Demon Snake even if you never killed anybody). I don't know if the points have a cap, but ever since then I've tried not to kill anybody and reduce the demon score, but it just doesn't seem to want to go away. It's a pain, too, because killing is almost required for FOB missions and you still get demon points for killing guards.

I mean I understand getting demon points for killing unnecessarily, for example just calling bombardments on every single outpost or going in with D-walker's flamethrower and murdering everybody. The soldiers you fight are likely drafted, with families of their own, who just want to go home and etc etc etc. But in a combat situation, many times I am forced to kill just to defend myself. It should be understandable and acceptable that Snake, a legendary soldier, kills to accomplish his mission, right?

The "demon" status just kind of comes out of nowhere and the game doesn't tell you about it at all, ever, so there's no real incentive to NOT kill unless you already know about the demon points or get a higher score. MGS3 did a similar thing with The Sorrow, but at least you weren't punished afterwards. There's also far too few ways to remove demon status; right now I'm trying to farm nukes from FOBs, since you get 1,000 demon points removed for disarming one and something like 30,000 removed for disarming ten, but other than that there's no real way to get a large amount of demon point reductions except for getting certain achievements, which you can only do once.

I think that instead of being instantly and permanently covered in blood until you manage to reduce your demon score, that the act of the "horn" pushing its way out of Snake's skull causes spontaneous bleeding, and that over time he slowly becomes more bloody even outside of combat. And once you do become bloody, you can wash it off normally in the shower. Maybe even have the blood appear more quickly the longer the horn is. Wouldn't that be more interesting?

[Deathraven13]

引用自 suPirman：

引用自 Deathraven13：

If you have higher rank soldier those low rank soldier won't replace them, so....

Do they already fix it? IIRC the game prever the ones we extract than the ones in the MB. So it may kick S soldier on MB for extracted A rank.

Never saw that, except those damn soldier with interpreter skill....

[Aviator Alligator]

引用自 Deathraven13：

If you have higher rank soldier those low rank soldier won't replace them, so....

Yes, I may know that now, but at the time not every dept was filled with soilders, so they'd just recruit anybody.

Also like suPirman said, I'm not sure if it always worked that way, but I don't really remember and can't say for sure.

[Frag Maniac]

引用自 Neonwarrior：

...which adds 50,000 demon points compared to the 60 you get from killing someone, instantly making you Demon Snake even if you never killed anybody

Not true, hero status starts at 150,000 Hero Points, and it's not hard to get way more than that by end of one play through. You have to be below 100,000 Hero Points for Demon status, so making a nuke is hardly automatic Demon status like you imply.

But in a combat situation, many times I am forced to kill just to defend myself. It should be understandable and acceptable that Snake, a legendary soldier, kills to accomplish his mission, right?

No, that is you blowing stealth, which isn't really that hard once you know what need be done to maintain it. It takes a bit of patience until you get better gear at first, but you def don't have to kill in retaliation. If you just retreat they will cool down. Then go in again and pick up where you left off.

...so there's no real incentive to NOT kill unless you already know about the demon points or get a higher score.

Having played the series before you should at least know that it's a stealth game first. It was also heavily advertised via trailers pre launch that the enemy adapts to your tactics. How do you think they're going to react to your playing like Rambo?

I think that instead of being instantly and permanently covered in blood until you manage to reduce your demon score, that the act of the "horn" pushing its way out of Snake's skull causes spontaneous bleeding, and that over time he slowly becomes more bloody even outside of combat. And once you do become bloody, you can wash it off normally in the shower. Maybe even have the blood appear more quickly the longer the horn is. Wouldn't that be more interesting?

Not really, and the blood not washing away has metaphorical meaning, not physical.

If you want to play it lethal without needing to, you're just going to have to deal with the consequences.

[Bansheebutt]

引用自 Grinnin' 'Gator!：

I've shot armored guards in the chest (not legs/arms) with a sniper rifle, only for them to do the slow death animation, not die instantly.

There's a difference between sadistically shooting guards each and every limb when they're down, and watching them die slow, and shooting downed guards in the head/chest one time to kill them quickly, but the game just considers it one and the same, and gives you big demon points regardless. In the way in considers a player killing in the first place to be doing something bad.

Sucks for you/them. That's just how the world goes. I don't really see anything illogical about it.

Killing the wounded is considered a no-no by the GC regardless of the context or execution.
The GC being what I'm pretty sure was intended as the basis of MGSV's morality system.

The events at the hosptial would have qualified as one of the worst War Crimes of the century, despite most of its kills being a "Quick shot to the head." (Barring the ones that were clearly intended for shock value)

[William Shakesman]

Kojima has always been mediocre sadly and it is because he keeps going back to terrible gimmicks like this demon system rather than focusing on the core game design. It's a shame.

[Aviator Alligator]

引用自 Bansheebot：

Sucks for you/them. That's just how the world goes. I don't really see anything illogical about it.

Killing the wounded is considered a no-no by the GC regardless of the context or execution.
The GC being what I'm pretty sure was intended as the basis of MGSV's morality system.

The events at the hosptial would have qualified as one of the worst War Crimes of the century, despite most of its kills being a "Quick shot to the head." (Barring the ones that were clearly intended for shock value)

Nice how you left off the last part of my quote which was to say "fair enough" to the game not differenciating about killing wounded soilders.

If you bothered actually reading carefully and trying to understand before yammering away again about making your own points, people (in this case myself) wouldn't have to repeat once more what I've already said. That being:

"didn't know shooting them when down was so bad (it gives serious demon points), got Demon Snake, all in all fair enough, but I just wish I'd know in advance beforehand as game doesn't say much about getting Demon Snake and how to remove."

Whether or not MGS rules of engagement follow real life rules of war critirea doesn't concern me; I am only making point to Demon Snake and removal of demon points.

Again, I don't really have much more to say than that on this thread, so please don't bring up to me what you think is the rationale for MGS morality system by way of Geneva Convention again.

[Bansheebutt]

Wow, you really do hate people being contrary.

Might I suggest not posting on forums if that's the case. You're going to run into it a lot.

Actually, life in general might be a bit of a hassle for you.

引用自 Grinnin' 'Gator!：

Whether or not MGS rules of engagement follow real life rules of war critirea doesn't concern me; I am only making point to Demon Snake and removal of demon points.

And I'm explaining the apparent rationale of why the system is the way it is. Your hissy fit in response to people trying to offer an explanation doesn't concern me.

[Roni]

引用自 Neonwarrior：

引用自 n0_quarter_：

it comes from "blood on your hands that can never be washed away", so it is as intended, your idea doesn't fit the story

There is no such thing as blood that can never be washed away. It comes off just as easily as dirt if you add a little soap...

But really, I've beaten the game already. At this point I'm doing non-canon FOB missions and replays. I understand that Snake is burdened by... something, since he didn't really do anything bad, ever, over the course of the game. I just want to wash off the blood.

You completely missed the point of that metaphor in this post...

In any case, I played for over 280 hours and the only thing that pushed me over the edge was developing the nuclear weapon for the achievement. If you approach the game in an accepting mood: give sneaking a fair chance in every situation, kill only enemies that are truly a threat to you and always prioritize escaping from combat rather than slaughtering everyone you'll probably never get past stage 2 in the Demon scale.

That's the case because it's safe to assume you'll be mixing those actions with fultoning useful soldiers/prisoners to base, rescuing children in main missions and collecting animals for the GMP and the achievement. That will offset the gain in Demon points.

[Olenose]

there is a cap on it.. When you come to a certain point, the demonpoints stops ticking in, so it wont get too hard to lose them again. I made a Nuke, and then i thought now that im "Demon Snake" why not just play around for a bit. then I ran around for hours killing people with tanks, airstrikes, shot wounded guards and so on.. Then I had to play "nice" for a few hours and then I was clean again.

Tip: Replay the "White Mamba" mission a few times, saving all the kids. I think I played it like 5-6 times, then I ran around did some sidemission(without killing people), before I played the white mamba mission again 2-3 times, then Snake was back to normal

[Ricardo Mayorga Fan]

I dont mind having nukes. What I hate is Venom becomes fkcing bloody ugly.