Still Too Easy

[Red Rando]

Even by setting the game to the most difficult settings in the new scenario creater, the game still seems too easy. Right now I'm on day 45 and I'm rocking over 60 raw food, 130 bullets, somewhere around...10 vegetables, bulletproof vests and assault rifles for everybody (for the lulz), I've built every single station and fully upgraded them all, at this point I'm just building random things for the hell of it. 100+ components and wood, over ten herbal meds, over ten bandages, 5 pill bottles...I had over 50 parts (gear things) before the trader came and I'm still sitting on 30+ electronic parts.

I'm beginning to think the game needs some sort of 'hardcore' or 'realistic' difficulty setting for veterans. Half the fun for me at this point is just running around slaughtering everybody and taking their stuff.

[benjammer1000]

I agree - first time playing on the Hardest Difficulty using the scenario editor I got crushed! Then I quickly realized the key initially is DEFENSE so I re-tried the same scenario with a focus on getting the house Boarded Up and Door Reinforced along with getting guns for my guys and its back to being too easy boring again. I had high hopes for this update but its still way too predictable. It needs the following DYNAMIC elements to make it hard to PLAN for anything as once you know what is going to happen WHEN, its just too easy to prepare for:

1. Franko the Trader visits = not every 3 days! Needs to be random, some times 2 days in a row, other times once in a week. Also should be able to kill him if desired but then no trader ever shows up to take his place!

2. 100+ New Door Knock Random Events = needs many more scenarios for when people knock on your door. At this point I already know what the outcomes are going to be/who to help etc Needs more options and things to occur so it becomes a true HARD choice to make.

3. Needs RANDOM button/mode = scenario editor needs Random buttons so you can play without already knowing how long the war will be, how hard it will be, who the characters will be, etc

4. Needs Supplies at Locations to be more Random = its too easy to know where to go to get stuff - there should be a mode where the Location Map does NOT say what you will likely find there and where what you DO find changes a lot from game to game.

5. More Events to happen at Locations = if you visit a safe place on the 3rd time, you should possibly run into a new crazy person trying to kill you or even find new loot that happened since last visit

6. Traders Goods more Random = its too easy when the Military Trader always gives you a ton for Smokes/Alcohol - there should be randomness where you go to trade and he says "too bad I already bought a ton of cigs yesterday so I dont need any more for a week" so that option is delayed for a week!

7. Winters and Crime Sprees occur multiple times = these need to occur anywhere from 0-3 per game each and the severity of each needs to be random. So one game you may have 2 cold streaks that are severe and other games you get NO cold streak etc. Knowing in advance how many makes it too easy as once the 1st cold streak is over, you can dump your axe/wood etc - if there were multiple cold streaks POSSIBLE per game, you couldnt do that!

8. Items You Build have Random Quality = sometimes you build a radio and it works great the whole game, other times it works poorly and/or breaks on you after 1-50 days of use. Same with other items so once you think you have everything you need, something important breaks! Similarly, sometimes items work EXTRA well and your 'magical' rat trap catches food in 1 day! This wont ruin the game b/c the amount of fertilizer is limited etc

9. Random Events Happen 1/100 Games = very random events that happen once every 50-100 play throughs, both good and bad ones, to ensure the game stays fresh as very crazy random stuff could happen i.e. a shell randomly hits and blows up your house and your game is over! Ha :)

10. More Random Everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The 47]

Hello!
@Pickpocket - thanks for your feedback. We're still working on this game and that's the kind of feedback we wanted. From my point of view I'm hoping we'll be able to add some new levels. Harder ones of course.
@benjammer1000 - wow, thanks for that. I've read it all and I see what's your point. We're already working on the next update / patch so I hope we'll be able to "add some randomness" to our game. I'll copy your ideas and show it to our designers if I may :)

[benjammer1000]

Originally posted by The 47:

Hello!
@Pickpocket - thanks for your feedback. We're still working on this game and that's the kind of feedback we wanted. From my point of view I'm hoping we'll be able to add some new levels. Harder ones of course.
@benjammer1000 - wow, thanks for that. I've read it all and I see what's your point. We're already working on the next update / patch so I hope we'll be able to "add some randomness" to our game. I'll copy your ideas and show it to our designers if I may :)

YES!! By all means, PLEASE take this list to the designers as I would LOVE for these features to be implemented (at least as an option). Right now, the game is awesome for the first few playthrus but once you get good at it, it quickly becomes too easy/boring. The changes/features I mention above will keep it FRESH for a very long time so you can play this game 100 times and still enjoy new wrinkles. This will in turn make the game 'worth' more money as it will give the value of a $50 game rather than a short $10-$15 game. Thanks again!!

[Red Rando]

No problem 47, thanks for the response.

[ghost-nl]

this is nice,i like it how the players an the devs work as a team to create a beautifull game.keep it up.

[toomanynights]

@The 47,
I can agree with the statement about the game being too easy once the player gets the survival method, which is unique for any scenario and all the circumstances.
In addition to making 'everything more random', perhaps you also might wanna consider those points:

- Difficulty levels right in game options. I mean, something that covers up the difficulty of scenarios now, so easier ones get harder, and harder ones get mega-harder. Say,
--'Default' level is no change from the current.
--'Easy' makes survivors more tough and winters less harmful.
--'Hard' decreases the chance of generating 'peaceful' locations, like Abandoned Cottage. On the 'warrior' scenarios, like Arica + Roman + Bruno, it gives only 1-2 peaceful locations on the whole map, and you'll have to fight and have risks more. Also decreases the chance of friendly neighbours coming with help (less and less on more diffucult scenarios).
-- 'Very hard' (or, i dunno, 'Nightmare') gives all effects of Hard, plus every hunger state remains for only one day, plus in the beginning of the game one of survivous is seriously sick (not slighly, like now) and all of them are hungry, etc.
- More options of configuring new characters. I mean, now they are all OP having no addictions and 12-slot backpacks. They should be weaker to fit in the game, I guess, so auto-balancing them, like all the main characters are balanced (like Boris who is strong but slow), or allowing the player to configure their backpacks and addictions could do the trick.
- Perhaps the event of 'military take-over' could increase the game being difficult just fine and it could seem realistic. Also it will save players from situation when they've built up everything, all the characters well-fed and you have nothing else to do, like Pickpocket said. Imagine: once in a few days militaries have some increasing % to come to your shelter and take whatever they like. You have options to just watch them and to nothing; to convince them to leave you alone (some characters, like Katia or Estate agent, could do it better, some - worse), or try to fight them - openly or from behind. Any desision of those will have circumstances; perhaps, in some cases you'll even have to leave your shelter and all your stuff that you can't carry, because some of those militaries managed to go away even though you harmed them and after some time they'll be back with huge backup to have their revenge.
- Dogs could do the trick! They play a big role in every war, so why not here? They could make the game more different in two ways:
-- While stealing, you'll have to be even more careful to stay away from enemy's dogs because they can keep you on the place by gnawling your hand and make noise, attracting every enemy.
-- If you have your own (like, homeless dogs can randomly come to your shelter once in a few days, just like new chatacters), it'll go with you to scavenge, but you'll have to be even more careful to keep it from being killed (because it'll make you survivors very sad).
- Thirst. They are 3 possible types of products in the fridge now: vegs, raw meat and canned meal. It could be a nice challenge to make water fourth! Say, survivors have to drink at least 1 water every day. On the second day they get Thirsty with slight decrease of mood, on the third - Dying of Thirst with huge mood decrease and movement slown down, on the fourth they can only lay down and do nothing, and if in that day nobody will bring them some water - they die. That would be a nice challenge, adding some realism, and the player will think twice - make some alcohol (which only increases thirst when you drink it!) or save some for a rainy day.

Actually I have plenty of ideas like that, I just don't bother remembering them 'cause I'm not sure it's needed. But I can start, if it will be useful :)

[Chilla42o]

@toomanynights I really like your ideas. Even by not being a fan of dogs, during war even me could change his mind :) I think all of the things you mentioned put together would increase fear during loots and make the game even more interesting and realistic. Thumbs up.

Additionally, how about being able to hold an alley cat in the house that boosts morale? Just a thought.

[toomanynights]

@Chilla42o Thank you very much :) I truly hope those ideas will come in handy for the developers. I really like TWOM, its concept, atmosphere and sence of desperation, which sadly dissapears when you got a few stacks of food and could just stay at home during nights until the ceasefire - and no surprise will ever happen to you.

As for animals. I thought about dogs not only because they are historical heroes of every war, or because they often get involved in rescuing people etc. That's all true, but my additional point was like this:
Homeless dogs live on the streets and people don't mind them, or sometimes worse: try to poison them because they consider them dangerous. But in the situation shown in TWOM, _everyone_ is homeless just like those dogs, so people could use their help, share their semi-ruined shelter with them and finally look at them with thankful eyes.

Yes, I also thought about alley cats from this perspective: let's say, alley cat could come to your shelter and be a passive morale booster, but not like guitar. It should just randomly choose one of folks, come to him, asking for attention, and increase his mood for a bit. But not active interactions are allowed since the cat gets afraid and runs to another room.
It also could come to someone who's resting sick or wounded, lay with him and increase speed of him recurring for a bit.
Of cource, as a penalty it should require feeding; either you share your raw meat with the cat (let's say, once in 2 days) or it starts to hunt and eats rats before they get caught with a trap.

I thought about this all, but didn't suggest because of risk that developers could think, that I'm suggesting to make a zoo out of TWOM, and ignore my ideas since then :D Also, this idea, while being fun and comfy, doesn't make the game enough harder, so it out of context for a bit.
But, if anyone asks if I would like to see alley cats in TWOM, I would definitely say 'yes' :))

[toomanynights]

Also, there are things which make game slightly easier:
- You can cook some hot meals, alcohol, catch rats or grow veggies and they'll remain in their workshops or trap. Possible solution (PS): allow items to be stolen from workshops.
- You can start making anything at the WS (say, 20 fuels from the materials) and go away - it'll remain. On the next day you can just oush the cross button and get your resources back. PS: all things that are undone should go back as ingridients at the end of the day. I mean, you started make 20 fuels, and you managed to make only 1 - then the night came. 19 woods come back to the inventory.
- While scavenging, you can take just the things you need, everything else will remain forever and you can come back to take it whenever you like. Which is strange: it's war, scavenvers are everywhere and you can't rely on any safe place to keep your goods instead of your own shelter, that's the point of having shelter at all, is it? PS: random quantity of random things should disappear from lootable places every night you're not there. More valuable thing is - more likely it'll disappear.
- When you come to scavenge, nothing stops you from murdering one or more of defenders. Even if militaries are holding the place - technically you can kill them all in one night. But your group members, even though they're regular civilians, in worst case can be just wounded by raiders; it affects, as I see, only the guard. PS: make raids more dangerous, with risk of lethal ending for one of group members, but balance it with possibility to loot raiders murdered by player's survivors (if any). Perhaps it could be connected with levels of difficulty that I mentioned before: the more difficult level is chosen, the more dangerous raids are.

[citizen_ychoux]

My two cents on how to improve an already great game.

1/ Add randomness, as very well stated by benjammer. One of the main reason the game gets easy is because it's predictible. You know already what is going to happen with civilian interactions, what loot to expect, how to destroy a military camp with a single knife.

2/ Add shelling! It is all around in the lore, it's what everybody talks about, yet as a player you are yet to actually see it. A great way to get the player on their teeth is to add bombing. And that it actually damages the shelter. This way you will have to repair your damaged stuff (boarding, water reclaimer...), and...

3/ ... should you not have listen to the radio when the shelling was announced by the military, well, too bad, your scavenger gets injured, without the possibility to actually go scavenging. Punishing? Maybe, but rewarding, should you have the stuff everybody will crave for after the bombing.

4/ Add more snipers. Not like everywhere, but it should be dangerous to go out, and not the cake walk it is. Random snipers could be a great addition, along with...

5/ ... random encounters. Others scavengers, military patrols, militia bullies, injured citizens, needing doctors. Make the city actually feel like a city, with more encounters during the day. These could go from military demanding tribute (and we will not shell your area), other groups proposing to joing (and your sad/angry members could leave), or even mail, messages coming along (as far fetched as it may sound).

6/ Evolving city. The new location "Old town" is, by far, one of the best. First time I played it, I lieved again that thrill that got me when I first played the game. Oh ♥♥♥♥ I got shot! Oh ♥♥♥♥ someone just got there! I really think the game would benefit from the locations actually changing, maybe from one state to another. This abandonned house can't be burning forever. What if "Is it safe to go in there" actually means that IT IS NOT SAFE. Or that next time you visit, the roof collapsed. Or the church, turning after winter from being friendly to being inhabited by bandits.

7/ Detailed stories for new preset characters. I love the fact that we can create new characters. It's great. But I was disapointed not to be given the same detailed story as the other characters. I didn't feel as attached to them as the first set. Without side story, they look like sidekicks. This could be easily changed. I know you interviewed a lot of survivors from Sarajevo. You do have a lot of stories to tell. Real stories.

Keep up the good work, your game is great, and I really appreciate the time you spend answering our feedback. You guys are the best!

ychoux

[toomanynights]

One more thing. This subject contains so many things that make the game slighly harder. Those would make the game more interesting for me exactly (because now it's not challenging for me any more).
But, reading reviews and stuff, I can see that there are players which wouldn't like the game getting so harsh because even now they have some survival problems. That's OK because it depends on so many things, including experience in survival games at all, strategic skills etc.
Also I can see that some of things that me and other community members have suggested are complicated to be done as optional.

So, my extra point is to compile some of them into separate paid DLC called, i dunno, "Hard As F**k", which contains:
- New mechanics of lootable places, that make things randomly disappearing (stolen by other scavengers);
- Military take-overs;
- Thirst will all consequences;
- Allowing items to be stolen from workshops;
- Removing undone things as components at the beginning of every night;
- Random snipers around;
- Random traders' behaviour and "random everything", like @benjammer1000 suggested.

I understand that those things are complicated to create and they make game mechanics slightly different, so I guess it should be an optional addition for those who wish it and is willing to pay for it. As for me, I'd be the first to pay for this DLC :)
All other things that I wrote about (difficulty levels etc), the way I see it, could possibly be parts of a regular updates.

PS Wrote this all and then saw @citizen_ychoux's comment. I really like those ideas, expecially the one about working on new characters. I do completely share the thought new characters having not detailed enough stories; I just can't believe them. Also they are actually OP having strong abilities, 12-unit-backpacks and no addictions.

[Elldrytch]

Not to disuade development additions, but I see a lot of the same people complaining the game is too easy; are also the same people who loot, pillage, murder, and destroy if they can get away with it.

How about adding more karma elements to the game than just an ending. Like, revenge squads, penalties for attacking, vigilanties, bandit retribution, etc.

[toomanynights]

@project_mercy
Not being one of those guys you talk about (I've finished even "Marko-lone survivor" storyline with no civilian killed or hurt), I agree with the statement that the game gets way too easy for those who choose the dark side. I've seen screenshots of "bad" endings (like the one for Marko: "he died; before that he wrote a letter for his family, but no one ever delivered it"), and that's touching, but obviously not enough for staying away from bad deeds.
I really like your ideas about ways of fixing that - except the "penalties for attacking" since I can't understand it =\ Could you explain what does it mean?

As for the rest of your thoughts, here's what I think:
- First off - all of those will require being constantly spotted. So whatever you've done - there's a chance that the consequences will come, even if there were nobody at that location (let's say, somebody else saw you at the way home). It could be just included to the night report, after the list of looted items: "%SURVIVOR% thinks that someone saw him leaving that place..."
- Revenge squads. This could be connected with military take-overs I've suggested before. Like, if you steal from militaries - they come at the next day and want to hurt the thief, get their stuff back and some of your things, just because they can.
- You steal from bandits - they come just to the next night with the raid stronger and tougher than you ever saw.
- You steal from civilians - they stop coming to you place giving things. Also a small group of responcible civilians can come and kindly ask to give back what you've stolen, otherwise they'll call militaries to your place (which, again, causes Military take-over).
- If you vere spotted at the place where you killed someone, there's a chance of special event at the daytime, like this: "I can see the group of militaries/bandits/vigilantes coming to our shelter, they look agressive. Hurry! We have to do something!" And then time starts ticking and you have to decide what to do. You can leave the shelter fast with things you can possibly carry and head for another one (again, connection with the idea of military take-overs), stay and give up the survivor that was spotted (HUGE decrease of mood), or stay and try to hide him (again, some characters can lie better, some worse), or stay and try to fight (must be almost impossible to win).

Again, this all looks like a part of a hypothetical DLC "HaF" :D

[Red Rando]

No matter what, it would be wrong to deliberately and mercilessly punish players simply for playing the way they choose to play. That's just poor game design. Instead, there should be relevant and fair consequences for our actions - both good and evil. Help neighbors, receive gift later. Kill neighbors, receive nothing (you've taken everything they have, anyway.) This would be better than, say, the military showing up at your door and ruining your playthrough.

Ultimately, I'd suggest a hidden karma/reputation counter that, when negative, prevents the player from receiving aid and increases the risk of being raided. This would be fair because by playing violently and stealing from others, we will have more supplies to defend ourselves with. Scripting a few random events, such as neighbors/military/rebels recognizing the player in locations where said NPC's wouldn't ordinarily exist, and threatening them with violence unless they leave the scene would be fun and interesting as well.

[toomanynights]

@Pickpocket,

I don't think it's punishing for the style of playthrough. It's still punishing, but for the crimes you've done. I don't think that in war it would be OK to execute a few soldiers, take their stuff and go away with it, having no fear that anything would happen to you ever.

If a soldier would see anybody coming out of a military outpost with blood on their clothes, he would definitely go see what happened there. And when he would see soldiers like him laying on the ground lifeless, he obviously would like to have his revenge.

Same goes for robbing/hurting civilians: folks in TWOM don't wear masks, so hosts or regular strangers could easily see their face and track their way to come after them if they did anything wrong. People still have their communities, even in war, and asking for help when some stranger came up to rob them seems realistic enough for me.

Anyway, things you've suggested are also fine and perhaps more "soft" that something I've written about before.