the rebels in the shelled school...

[edward_then]

so recently i tried to kill all the rebels here. after studying their patrol patterns, i decided to remove their spine with a crowbar as marko. i don't have much trouble doing so but here's the catch, there are the good guys. and killing the "good guys" has a morale penalty.

i don't understand. why is the game considers these humanitarian aid thieves the good guys? i mean these guys killed like dozens of people, including emilia's dad and sisters and roman's best buddies. any thoughts?

[Cetoiscini]

If you wait a bit and pay some attention, you'll notice this dialogue:

"...No, that wouldn't be right! We're not bandits! Remember, we are to protect the people, not harm them!"
"Alright, I understand, don't worry."
"Good. It's easy to forget that during the war..."

[ElPrezCBF]

Dialogue aside, it's ironic that the game does not extend the same discrimination to all soldiers. Not all rebels are saints either. In Roman's story, he remembers how some rebels rounded up anyone they suspected of opposing them and shot them including his best friend. Although he aimed over their heads, others didn't.

I know the construction snipers and supermarket soldier are bad guys but the ones at the military outpost are innocent. Yet the game still recognizes them as "bad" and therefore fair game with no morale penalty for killing them. Maybe it's for gameplay reasons because the outpost holds a lot of weapons and food that might be needed early especially on more extreme scenarios. I know there's the radio report of military atrocities but still.

[edward_then]

Originally posted by Anntwel:

Dialogue aside, it's ironic that the game does not extend the same discrimination to all soldiers. Not all rebels are saints either. In Roman's story, he remembers how some rebels rounded up anyone they suspected of opposing them and shot them including his best friend. Although he aimed over their heads, others didn't.

I know the construction snipers and supermarket soldier are bad guys but the ones at the military outpost are innocent. Yet the game still recognizes them as "bad" and therefore fair game with no morale penalty for killing them. Maybe it's for gameplay reasons because the outpost holds a lot of weapons and food that might be needed early especially on more extreme scenarios. I know there's the radio report of military atrocities but still.

dunno about gameplay reasons, if you played this game in your first playthrough, military outpost is probably the last place you'll ever raid, because it looks pretty tough from the outside. or maybe it's like risk=reward thing?

places like ruined villa(couples) and small apartment(family) are some of the good early place to raid, you can grab everything here without penalty.

[edward_then]

Originally posted by Cetoiscini:

If you wait a bit and pay some attention, you'll notice this dialogue:

"...No, that wouldn't be right! We're not bandits! Remember, we are to protect the people, not harm them!"
"Alright, I understand, don't worry."
"Good. It's easy to forget that during the war..."

oh, didn't notice that. but why the devs didn't add something like this to soldiers? not all soldiers are trigger-happy + drunk shooting men right?

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by edward_then:

dunno about gameplay reasons, if you played this game in your first playthrough, military outpost is probably the last place you'll ever raid, because it looks pretty tough from the outside. or maybe it's like risk=reward thing?

places like ruined villa(couples) and small apartment(family) are some of the good early place to raid, you can grab everything here without penalty.

It only looks tough on your first try because you're not yet familiar with the soldiers' movements and how to hide and ambush them silently with a knife. But once you get the hang of it, which you would pretty soon, it's actually very easy. Yes, there may be occasional...how shall I say "glitches", when the guards would stay in the same spot for longer than usual but otherwise, they behave in a predictable manner most of the time.

Yes, it's mostly a risk-reward thing. Dangerous places tend to give you tons of great stuff, but not all places are equally dangerous. There are also relatively peaceful "caution needed" places that also have rich pickings. Anyway, I won't spoil it for you if you're new to this game.

A newer player would obviously want to try a more forgiving scenario where you can afford to delay visiting dangerous places as much as possible unless you get desperate as the war drags on. When you become confident enough to take on more extreme scenarios, you're likely to be more proficient in clearing dangerous places anyway, though most of the characters are not combat experts.

When you visit dangerous places, you would often have to stay hidden or out of the enemies' line of sight and observe their conversations before taking them out. These will confirm that they are "bad". If a place is not labeled "dangerous", the people there are usually peaceful unless you do something stupid like stealing their stuff in front of them. Innocent civilians live in the ruined villa and small apartment, so killing them will incur a morale penalty. Stealing also incurs a morale penalty unless the character has a high threshold for it like say Arica, who was a cat burglar herself.

[edward_then]

Originally posted by Anntwel:

It only looks tough on your first try because you're not yet familiar with the soldiers' movements and how to hide and ambush them silently with a knife. But once you get the hang of it, which you would pretty soon, it's actually very easy. Yes, there may be occasional...how shall I say "glitches", when the guards would stay in the same spot for longer than usual but otherwise, they behave in a predictable manner most of the time.

Yes, it's mostly a risk-reward thing. Dangerous places tend to give you tons of great stuff, but not all places are equally dangerous. There are also relatively peaceful "caution needed" places that also have rich pickings. Anyway, I won't spoil it for you if you're new to this game.

A newer player would obviously want to try a more forgiving scenario where you can afford to delay visiting dangerous places as much as possible unless you get desperate as the war drags on. When you become confident enough to take on more extreme scenarios, you're likely to be more proficient in clearing dangerous places anyway, though most of the characters are not combat experts.

When you visit dangerous places, you would often have to stay hidden or out of the enemies' line of sight and observe their conversations before taking them out. These will confirm that they are "bad". If a place is not labeled "dangerous", the people there are usually peaceful unless you do something stupid like stealing their stuff in front of them. Innocent civilians live in the ruined villa and small apartment, so killing them will incur a morale penalty. Stealing also incurs a morale penalty unless the character has a high threshold for it like say Arica, who was a cat burglar herself.

when alerted, the npc can see behind them, which makes it near impossible to sneak up on them. luckily, npc tend to walk to your alcove anyway. my first attempt at the military outpost is, well, half-disastrous. around 5 soldiers guards my only escape(im inside a pit below the tower), so i waited it out until the time runs out. and guess what, arica made it back, wounded but alive. i filled her pockets with bandages, guns and foods lol.

in the ruined villa and small apartment, you can steal most of the important stuff undetected, and without penalty on doing so. i don't use arica on scavenge pretty often, because she has a rather small backpack size compared to some people and you can't lure people into your death alcove with her.

i think you can easily stealth kill someone with fit characters, like pavle, marin, marko etc. i tried these before and it worked, with morale penalty of course.

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by edward_then:

when alerted, the npc can see behind them, which makes it near impossible to sneak up on them. luckily, npc tend to walk to your alcove anyway. my first attempt at the military outpost is, well, half-disastrous. around 5 soldiers guards my only escape(im inside a pit below the tower), so i waited it out until the time runs out. and guess what, arica made it back, wounded but alive. i filled her pockets with bandages, guns and foods lol.

in the ruined villa and small apartment, you can steal most of the important stuff undetected, and without penalty on doing so. i don't use arica on scavenge pretty often, because she has a rather small backpack size compared to some people and you can't lure people into your death alcove with her.

i think you can easily stealth kill someone with fit characters, like pavle, marin, marko etc. i tried these before and it worked, with morale penalty of course.

Ah my bad, you must be playing the ruined villa and small apartment scenarios where they are occupied by deserters and thugs, so stealing from them won't incur a morale penalty. If you played their alternate scenarios where they are occupied by innocent civilians, the penalty will apply unless it's Arica or someone with little emotions. So taking from bad guys is ok, but not from innocents.

Arica is actually one of the best fighters (second only to Roman I think) although luring is tricky because she makes little noise. That means even if she gets detected, she has a high chance of winning when rushing the enemy with melee. Of course, you don't want to take on more than one enemy at a time and this applies to any survivor, not just her. She would also come in useful if you plan to steal from locations with innocents because you don't want to alert them and be forced to kill them and take a morale hit. But I think that even if a character has a high threshold, committing crimes too often may ultimately take a toll on their morale. I haven't tested this much as my style is to avoid crimes and rely more on perpetual trade with npcs late game. The game does not consider actions against bad guys as "crimes" but does if they are committed against innocents.

You can find more useful info here:
http://this-war-of-mine.wikia.com/wiki/Sympathy
http://this-war-of-mine.wikia.com/wiki/Combat

[RainingMetal]

It's why I usually don't bother with the Rebel School, since it usually replaces the Brothel. The music implies otherwise, but the rebels are apparently "innocent". Not to mention that it's nigh-impossible to assault it without getting hurt.

[edward_then]

Originally posted by Anntwel:

Ah my bad, you must be playing the ruined villa and small apartment scenarios where they are occupied by deserters and thugs, so stealing from them won't incur a morale penalty. If you played their alternate scenarios where they are occupied by innocent civilians, the penalty will apply unless it's Arica or someone with little emotions. So taking from bad guys is ok, but not from innocents.

Arica is actually one of the best fighters (second only to Roman I think) although luring is tricky because she makes little noise. That means even if she gets detected, she has a high chance of winning when rushing the enemy with melee. Of course, you don't want to take on more than one enemy at a time and this applies to any survivor, not just her. She would also come in useful if you plan to steal from locations with innocents because you don't want to alert them and be forced to kill them and take a morale hit. But I think that even if a character has a high threshold, committing crimes too often may ultimately take a toll on their morale. I haven't tested this much as my style is to avoid crimes and rely more on perpetual trade with npcs late game. The game does not consider actions against bad guys as "crimes" but does if they are committed against innocents.

You can find more useful info here:
http://this-war-of-mine.wikia.com/wiki/Sympathy
http://this-war-of-mine.wikia.com/wiki/Combat

after a few experiments and multiple scenario reset, i've found out that you can indeed steal items in these "civilian areas" without making your character sad. I used katia because bad things will impact her a lot more and i don't kill the occupants. here's what i've found so far:

1. ruined villa(couples)
2. small apartment(family)
3. old town
4. central square

when being spotted, i usually just run or like before, get into a place where the occupants says "i'll wait here" and wait until 5 am. it's risky but worth it. killing is probably the last thing i'll do when being caught stealing in a civilian area. you should try it once in a while.

i spend most of my fortune getting tobacco and herbs. when the pogoren desperately needs cigar, i can give them a quality roll up, with a price. they sell pretty well though in that time, to the point where you can litterally buy everything in their pockets. ~80 roll up can get you most of the good stuff there. works for most scenario.

im still working out for the lone marko scenario. any suggestion?

[edward_then]

Originally posted by RainingMetal:

It's why I usually don't bother with the Rebel School, since it usually replaces the Brothel. The music implies otherwise, but the rebels are apparently "innocent". Not to mention that it's nigh-impossible to assault it without getting hurt.

they have lots of tobacco and cigars are expensive at that time. can't resist that temptation....

[Kierk]

I think the rebels count as civilians and not bandits as you might expect, meaning the penalty for stealing from them is much heavier than raiding the brothel or military outpost for example.

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by edward_then:

after a few experiments and multiple scenario reset, i've found out that you can indeed steal items in these "civilian areas" without making your character sad. I used katia because bad things will impact her a lot more and i don't kill the occupants. here's what i've found so far:

1. ruined villa(couples)
2. small apartment(family)
3. old town
4. central square

when being spotted, i usually just run or like before, get into a place where the occupants says "i'll wait here" and wait until 5 am. it's risky but worth it. killing is probably the last thing i'll do when being caught stealing in a civilian area. you should try it once in a while.

i spend most of my fortune getting tobacco and herbs. when the pogoren desperately needs cigar, i can give them a quality roll up, with a price. they sell pretty well though in that time, to the point where you can litterally buy everything in their pockets. ~80 roll up can get you most of the good stuff there. works for most scenario.

im still working out for the lone marko scenario. any suggestion?

I think you're confused. Katia is sensitive to stealing, Arica and Emilia less so. There are 2 factors that determine the effect on morale when you steal, the character's threshold for stealing and whether those you steal from are good or bad guys. Many locations have alternate scenarios where one will have "innocents" and the other "bads". If you play an alternate scenario with "bads", stealing from them is usually ok. But even if your character has a high threshold for stealing, his actions can worsen the morale of other survivors who are more sensitive like Boris.

I finished Marko solo but didn't do a guide for it. Basically, you have to evacuate all items from your shelter each night and put them in a safe backpack pile in another location until your second survivor arrives to guard the shelter.

[edward_then]

Originally posted by Kierk:

I think the rebels count as civilians and not bandits as you might expect, meaning the penalty for stealing from them is much heavier than raiding the brothel or military outpost for example.

if i had known that from the start, i could've used bruno instead. less effect on him that anyone else on my party at that time. they eat food everyday to keep the morale from dropping.

in the military outpost, the letters there suggest that military did some gruesome execution to a girl who sniped another kid(confirmed from the unsent letters in the shelled school(homeless)), so it makes sense that this place has a badguys and killing them has little or no effect on the survivor's morale.

but what i find at the shelled school(rebels), before and after i started my killing spree is that they have been hoarding humanitarian aid by putting fliers around the city and kill those who secretly claiming these boxes for themselves. dunno if they(rebels) realize this, but by collecting humanitarian boxes for themselves, they are slowly killing the civilians(basic nessecities are pretty scarce and from the looks of it, the war has been out for like 3 years), but that doesn't mean they are good either. would you rather die slowly or quickly?

maybe it has something to do with the scripting? or intentional?

[edward_then]

Originally posted by Anntwel:

I think you're confused. Katia is sensitive to stealing, Arica and Emilia less so. There are 2 factors that determine the effect on morale when you steal, the character's threshold for stealing and whether those you steal from are good or bad guys. Many locations have alternate scenarios where one will have "innocents" and the other "bads". If you play an alternate scenario with "bads", stealing from them is usually ok. But even if your character has a high threshold for stealing, his actions can worsen the morale of other survivors who are more sensitive like Boris.

I finished Marko solo but didn't do a guide for it. Basically, you have to evacuate all items from your shelter each night and put them in a safe backpack pile in another location until your second survivor arrives to guard the shelter.

what i've shown you earlier are some "bugged" place where stealing there won't make your character sad. i also have some screenshots to prove it but i don't know how to add them here. i stole all of their food and med, doing this on other civilian areas will make katia depressed. i dunno about arica, i stole food and med in the other day and it makes her sad. i'm a bit worried about sad arica and roman because when not used for scavenge, they will cause injuries to others. can't send them both to scavenge though.

you can store items outside the shelter? gotta try this in the next reset. but in this scenario, extra survivors often comes in around day >17. i've been putting boards, tarps and stuff to holes in the house/apartment and extra alarm system, but these security measures doesn't work without occupants.

i think an upgraded stove, 2 heater and a bed is a must in this scenario.

[ElPrezCBF]

Originally posted by edward_then:

what i've shown you earlier are some "bugged" place where stealing there won't make your character sad. i also have some screenshots to prove it but i don't know how to add them here. i stole all of their food and med, doing this on other civilian areas will make katia depressed. i dunno about arica, i stole food and med in the other day and it makes her sad. i'm a bit worried about sad arica and roman because when not used for scavenge, they will cause injuries to others. can't send them both to scavenge though.

you can store items outside the shelter? gotta try this in the next reset. but in this scenario, extra survivors often comes in around day >17. i've been putting boards, tarps and stuff to holes in the house/apartment and extra alarm system, but these security measures doesn't work without occupants.

i think an upgraded stove, 2 heater and a bed is a must in this scenario.

Can't quite remember but I think there's an especially huge morale hit for stealing almost everything from innocents and leaving little for them to survive.

As for characters getting into fights with fellow survivors, you need to keep their mood up and keeping them from being "hungry" or "very hungry" helps a lot. That said, it's not efficient to feed them almost everyday unless your shelter has a ton of food with rat traps and a veggie garden to keep a steady food supply. I think the hunger status deteriorates as follows: well fed>normal>hungry>hungry>very hungry>very hungry>starving. So if you feed a survivor when he just starts to get "hungry/very hungry", your food consumption is inefficient because allowing him to go "hungry/very hungry" for another night would have achieved the same result of bringing him back to the next improved hunger status level.

However, the game can be quirky. I once prevented Roman from getting "very hungry" for the entire playthrough and stuffed him with cigarettes to feed his addiction. I even tried to limit his guard duties to keep his morale up and his mood was fine. He never got into a single fight but out of the blue, a bad RNG roll got him into a fight for no reason! So keeping their moods up helps, but nothing is guaranteed when it comes to RNG.

You can store things outside the shelter. In the Marko solo scenario, this is helpful as it prevents looters from taking anything from your shelter until your second survivor arrives to serve as a guard. But the catch is that a sucessful raid will still damage his morale even if nothing was actually taken. You would also have to be very precise in tracking your resource needs every night so that you bring back just enough to build needed improvements but not too much that you have to leave some stuff behind for the looters. There's an exploit in that you can partially build improvements just to deny the looters, then return the next morning, cancel it, and combine the refunded resources with what you just scavenged to build what you actually wanted.