Why can't Authoritarian Governments pick "Meritocracy" Civic

[Joshwerds]

I can't find a reason why Meritocracy is locked to democracies and oligarchies. As for as balance goes I can't see it being too op not that Stellaris shies away from op strats. Paired with fanatic authoritarian you get a +10% output from both workers and specialists, but that is weaker than its pair with fanatic egalitarian which gives you +20% to specialist output. Specialist output is arguably more important since they produce alloys, research, and strategic resources, which are the most important resources to have in my eyes. As for as role play and real life equivalences go it is not inconceivable. Why can't my Imperial Monarchy have the dirty work of running the empire be done by citizens who had to prove they can handle the post? Imperial China used exams to determine who would fill their bureaucracy and administration. Imperial China wasn't very democratic. You could also argue to government positions in democracies are given out based on nepotism most of the time so whats the deal? Why can't you pair authoritarian with meritocracy?

[TwoTonTuna]

Because authoritarians are afraid of competent individuals. Smart people often challenge the status quo--something that tyrants hate with a passion. These kinds of people instead surround themselves with sycophantic lackies that will agree with everything they say.

Look at modern-day China, for example. Jack Ma calls for reforms that displeases the CCP, he immediately disappears. The communist party might loudly proclaim they want the best serving them, but their handling of Jack Ma discourages the truly competent from challenging the status quo.

This also applies to your example of Imperial China and their tests. They wanted useful bureaucrats who will maintain the status quo--not free-thinking individuals who will correct the Emperor when he's making a mistake.

This is why I think meritocracy is incompatible with authoritarianism.

[BigTurnip]

if your going authoritarian why aren't you running specialist slaves????

20% from meritocracy + fanatic egalitarian is still weaker than slaves

10 % governor
10 % fanatical authoritarian
10 % slaver guild
30 % Domination tree

[HappySack]

Because meritocracy requires freedom, individual liberties and all that jazz but really you get more specialist output with slaver guilds anyway.

[Sabaithal]

Authoritarian is all about consolidation of power, not spreading it around. Its centered around the ideal that a select few (or one) competent individuals with all the power can get far more done than spreading that power among a lot of individuals, with different viewpoints, opinions, morals, and levels of competence.

And when it comes to politics, proving that you have the power, unfortunately, means you will have contenders, that would will need to deal with one way or the other to keep your power.

That's how the theory goes anyway. In practice, it ends up being in opposition to an egalitarian ideal even if that was not the original intention.

[Tiasmoon]

You guys ever hear of Rome?

[Razorblade]

The Chinese "meritocracy" was more like Stellaris' technocracy. Wealthy, well-educated merchant's children who got an expensive, private education could become bureaucrats and live like nobles. Peasants still had no upward mobility.

Stellaris' meritocracy seems to imply more of an equitable society, where people with potential, not just fat pockets, can succeed. The idea of an equitable society contradicts Stellaris' interpretation of Authoritarianism, which is wholely defined by a stratified society.

[Tiasmoon]

Bruh, a technocracy is a science focused meritocracy..

[Razorblade]

Postat inițial de Tiasmoon:

Bruh, a technocracy is a science focused meritocracy..:blanc:

No, it's a stratified society with scientists as its highest class. Nothing about the civic implies that the scientists that are in charge are the smartest members of their empire, just that they're more qualified than anyone else purely on the basis of being a scientist. That's like saying the Aristocratic Elite civic is a noble meritocracy, or the Exalted Priesthood civic is a religious meritocracy.

[coolman552]

the sith empire from old republic made it work

[Meewec]

Postat inițial de coolman552:

the sith empire from old republic made it work

amazing what plot armor can manage. an actual society based around a power structure where the members constantly worried about being killed by other people would quickly collapse

[coolman552]

Postat inițial de Meewec:

Postat inițial de coolman552:

the sith empire from old republic made it work

amazing what plot armor can manage. an actual society based around a power structure where the members constantly worried about being killed by other people would quickly collapse

tbh thats what got it destroyed too

[Journeyman Prime]

Postat inițial de Kodesh:

Because authoritarians are afraid of competent individuals. Smart people often challenge the status quo--something that tyrants hate with a passion. These kinds of people instead surround themselves with sycophantic lackies that will agree with everything they say.

Look at modern-day China, for example. Jack Ma calls for reforms that displeases the CCP, he immediately disappears. The communist party might loudly proclaim they want the best serving them, but their handling of Jack Ma discourages the truly competent from challenging the status quo.

This also applies to your example of Imperial China and their tests. They wanted useful bureaucrats who will maintain the status quo--not free-thinking individuals who will correct the Emperor when he's making a mistake.

This is why I think meritocracy is incompatible with authoritarianism.

While this is true, it is theoretically possible that Darwinian Hierarchies could exist, especially if its alien societies we're talking about. A sort of "Might makes Right" society where the people in charge are the ones who killed, backstabbed, or beat the previous guy to death. I'm thinking RP-wise that would deserve its own civic, and would allow for centralized authorities to have a Meritocracy-like civic.

[Journeyman Prime]

Postat inițial de Meewec:

Postat inițial de coolman552:

the sith empire from old republic made it work

amazing what plot armor can manage. an actual society based around a power structure where the members constantly worried about being killed by other people would quickly collapse

Not if you have an unkillable immortal Ruler at the top to hold it all down. Or you have an alien species whose individuals are so incredibly arrogant and narcissistic that they genuinely believe they are immortal, unlike the guy they literally just stabbed in the back to get his position.

That and the Sith are effectively a religion. Religion can hold even the most chaotic societies together far longer than they deserve to exist. In other words, it wasn't ALL plot armor. And many Sith genuinely had an immortality/god complex due to their training, which is exactly how the society didn't collapse for so long. With Vitiate both immortal and on the throne, any serious infighting that threatened the Empire would have been stopped with his word alone.

[Sabaithal]

Postat inițial de MayhemX8:

Postat inițial de Kodesh:

Because authoritarians are afraid of competent individuals. Smart people often challenge the status quo--something that tyrants hate with a passion. These kinds of people instead surround themselves with sycophantic lackies that will agree with everything they say.

Look at modern-day China, for example. Jack Ma calls for reforms that displeases the CCP, he immediately disappears. The communist party might loudly proclaim they want the best serving them, but their handling of Jack Ma discourages the truly competent from challenging the status quo.

This also applies to your example of Imperial China and their tests. They wanted useful bureaucrats who will maintain the status quo--not free-thinking individuals who will correct the Emperor when he's making a mistake.

This is why I think meritocracy is incompatible with authoritarianism.

While this is true, it is theoretically possible that Darwinian Hierarchies could exist, especially if its alien societies we're talking about. A sort of "Might makes Right" society where the people in charge are the ones who killed, backstabbed, or beat the previous guy to death. I'm thinking RP-wise that would deserve its own civic, and would allow for centralized authorities to have a Meritocracy-like civic.

That's pretty much just a meritocracy disguised as authoritarian.

[Journeyman Prime]

Postat inițial de Sabaithal:

Postat inițial de MayhemX8:

While this is true, it is theoretically possible that Darwinian Hierarchies could exist, especially if its alien societies we're talking about. A sort of "Might makes Right" society where the people in charge are the ones who killed, backstabbed, or beat the previous guy to death. I'm thinking RP-wise that would deserve its own civic, and would allow for centralized authorities to have a Meritocracy-like civic.

That's pretty much just a meritocracy disguised as authoritarian.

But when the current Emperor (long may he reign! Or at least longer than 1 year unlike his unfortunate predecessor) IS unquestionable so long as he is alive and can give orders I'd say its authoritarian, just very chaotic with high upward mobility due to the fact that a lot of the guys at the top tend to die really soon after attaining their position.