Game is not fun Edit (perhaps a little)

[Brother PaciFist]

Hello, i want to give my two cents as a new player.

I started the game with a fresh warband as mercenaries and skaven. The game feels like a brick wall i run against. Even the very first missions are nearly impossible to win on a consistent basis. When you progress a little into the game it gets absolutely impossible. Your warbands rating rises and so does the rating of your enemies. Some warbands like witchhunters and undead seem to be more powerfull then my warband on a regular basis. Witchhunters hit like a truck for 2 times 70 in a row gang up on the weakest members of my party. Undead vampires are untouchable, henchmen get a fear test everytime they are near the vampire and can not do anything with 3 red pills.

Without saving or loading you lose hours of progress in the blink of an eye, that is utterly disgusting. An abusive waste of my time as player. Let me please play the game as i want to not as you intent as developer. Give me at least the option to play on an easy or normal difficulty and not on an abusive one, and the option to save my progress. It is rediculous to expect me to play hours on hours only to get a decent warband to play with. Then i play one multiplayer match or one match against the AI and everything is lost in the blink of an eye. That is not fun in my eyes. For player who like this kind of abuse, there should be the option to play iron man. For every normal person there should be a normal difficulty choise. Easy, Normal, Hard, Abusive. And no your missions available in the game are not a difficulty choise. The difficulty rises even on normal to abnormal levels after a few succesful days. Your warband can have level 3 but only level 0 henchmen and leader, and the ai warband is stronger every time.

For the gameplay. I read the forum and tried some "tactics" like hold the high ground with archers, hunker down in chokepoints. First of baby archers damage output is a joke. But the AI seems to play around this tactics everytime. If i hold a chokepoint the ai stops coming and just Ambush stance out of reach or has rediculous long movement to circumvent my barricade and attack the weak members behind my line of "tanks". Not that the tanks are tanky at all level 1 or 2. I tried a small warband with 4 members, success until i meet strong enemies like undead, witch hunters or even myself. The ai seems to use the mentioned tactics to great success. Because of reasons it can easily reach my weak members and gang up on them. It can hold choke points with one tanky character against 2 or 3 for several turns, but my men can not for whatever reason. Ah and every mission beside normal both players are gathered around their wagon is absolutely unplayable, because everytime the ai gangs up on lonely members of my party and gangs up on them hard. Free kills everytime. I only encounter units alone for a round or 2 in my games. And they seem to be tanky enough to survive long enough for their friends to show up. Damage output of my recruits is a joke compared to the ai. I do like 17 to 20 damage, the ai puts out 30 to 40 or 70 70 in a row sometimes. And nearly never misses against 70 parry or 60 dodge. Yeah thank you. I can win some maps and even get some whyrdstone, but i can not consistently win for 10 maps in a row and grow my units into something strong, they die or get crippled before.

The gold prices for skills are rediculous. Oh here you are a fresh player, enjoy our wild customization. Oh you can not afford a single skill. What a shame. Hahaha, new player. that is abusive and not fun. At least give me the chance to learn the game.

So thank you for reading. I think you have a nice game concept on your hands, you could broaden your audience by far if you made your next games more casual friendly. Difficulty should be on a reasonable level for beginners, the AI should not have so many unreasonable advantages and play perfect at the same time. I like to stomp the AI once in a while, not be killed all the time even on easy missions. And the progression should not be lost in the brink of an eye. Some people here have jobs and family and can not afford to play hours on hours, but they like to play video games too.

Thanks for reading have a nice day

[Papa Yash]

...Here we go again...

[Much Monkey Business]

Originally posted by Telamoont:

...Here we go again...

+1

[imjeff1]

Let me prepare you for the amount of flames you are about to incur...

This is a difficult game, especially when you first start and at early levels and it has a steep learning curve. It was designed to be difficult. I would suggest watching some youtube videos on gameplay. Search for Morjax and GameKnight, they have some entertaining walkthroughs. This community is very willing to help if you have questions regarding gameplay. Lastly, just keep at it.

The theme of the game is making due with a bad situation (injuries, lack of gold, etc...). You are not supposed to have everything you need to build a perfect warband. This is not abusive. The loss of individuals or injuries is not as important as progress of the warband. It gets easier and is tactically rewarding. Before long you WILL be stomping the AI and you will see their "advantages" as disadvantages.

[Paranoia]

A Vampire mentioned again:
Charge it, swarm it, and kill it in one turn. A Leadership 3 Character has 50% chance to pass at latest the second attempt at Terror (as in: the first time it would matter). The rest of the Undead, apart from Thrall, are quite incompetent under AI direction.

At low Ranks, your Henchmen should use either Dual Maces or Great Weapons. They only get one attack, so it better hit and/or hurt. Defenses are only worthy once one has some actual capability to defend.

You're supposed to get your teeth kicked in until you learn how to not die horribly.

[Sarger]

Seems a lot of people know how games must be developed these days lol

[miniaaar]

Let me please play the game as i want to not as you intent as developer.

This is the most troublesome for me. The devs' made the game they wanted to make. They're open to suggestions of course, but in the end of the day, the game should be how they want it to be. If you don't like it, then don't play the game, simple as that. They cannot possibly cater to everyone that plays their game.

[kappahun]

You made a lot of effort to criticize, so I guess you find something in the game. It would be so interesting to see a video of you playing the game. That way you could receive (hopefully) constructive criticism, how you could do better. Maybe give it a try?

[kriscardiac]

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

I started the game with a fresh warband as mercenaries and skaven.

Thanks for reading have a nice day

I do appreciate politeness, and I would recommend that you should start the game with the tutorials. They definitely help.

There are some very good guides too, which don't take long to get through.

Plenty of us here also have limited time available to play, and there's a very long thread about our spectacular failures in playing Morden, but we mostly learn from the mistakes, and realise the warband (and its equipment) is what matters, not the members of it. Also the veteran points add a major bonus for the next warband when it all goes crit/stun/crit/crit/ragequit.

I hope you get to the point in this game were you can Enjoy the Chaos.

[Castor]

The game does have a steep learning curve and it's definitely not for everyone. If you consider a casual game to be something you can pick up quickly and win with little effort and practice then this is not a casual game. For me, a casual game is one that I can play alone (check) and enjoy (check). It should have some depth (big check) and still occasionally surprise me (check).

[Brother PaciFist]

Thank you for your answers, the game style atmosphere and gameplay is interesting, the difficulty curve is not for me. I played all the tutorials, watched a couple of basic game guides but can not at all replay the tactics shown in those videos. The AI is just stronger in every category. It does not react like described in the videos in my game at all. If i settle down in a house or control entries, the AI just sits out of range and takes ambush stance every turn and does not attack. If í leave the secured area it jumps with every unit on the weakest member of my unit.

I come home from work to have fun not to do a second job in form of a game, thank you. But i find it rediculous that i am not allowed to even modify the game to my likings. A simple save option is denied by deleting my warband if i try to back up my warband. So that is just too much. Now i will remember to buy nothing from the developers ever again. I never intended to use a singleplayer warband in multiplayer. But i do not think that the multiplayer community of this game is healthy at all. Who invests hours and hours in a warband to only blow it up in a multiplayer game or two. It is not a firework for sylvester.

I will just remember the developers name and recognize that their games are not for me. And get a refund of cause, but it is a little late for that. Watching and playing the tutorials did take more then 2 hours. And the tactical depth seems not to be deep at all compared to similar games.

Thank you again for reading, have a nice day

[Sarger]

Consider the fact that members of the band are disposables. Every one of them. What you do in this game is developing your warband. Losing waririors is common thing, you can always get new one and enemy team will be created according to your team score. That makes game playable at any level of warband or team members, so do not shy to stay at low levels and cycle your guys while they are resting or dying. I hate when it comes to hardwork in games too, but this game is not of a kind as long as you look at it at a right angle. :) Sometimes it is relaxing thing to sit in armchair looking through the window of your display to the harsh bloody world where people just live and die for the wyrdstones.

[Brother PaciFist]

Originally posted by Sarger:

Consider the fact that members of the band are disposables ......the window of your display to the harsh bloody world where people just live and die for the wyrdstones.

Interesting view, but for one map i need like 30 minutes. i played 10 maps with my mercenary band in like 9 hours and had no real progress to show, because every member of my warband was either dead or crippled. Every battle a member falls and gets either killed or crippled. Meanwhile the gold supply vanishes, because i spent more gold for traitments and payments then collecting stuff in the missions. When i concentrate on collecting things i loose money because every member will die, i can not win 3 on 5 engagements while 2 of my members are busy collecting stuff. Or the gatheres are killed while collecting stuff. Every AI unit is stronger the my units in a 1 on 1. The tip to kill them piecemeal one by one does not work in my games. The AI does not come one for one but mostly in a group in one or 2 turns. Low level Archers dont work at all. They mostly miss and have very low hitchances when shooting at targets connected in melee. When i try to protect my archers, my tanks get overwhelmed too quickly.

So the game is too stressful to act as medium of entertainment for me. I have a stressful workday and just want to relax. So not for me.

But i like hard games some times too. I played all dark souls games to different degree of success and enjoyed most of them except the last. Too Blood Bourney for me.

[bcasner50]

Do a search for newbie tips, Prinz and some others offer some gems out there like the following:

Warband Management:

1 do not overextend. You can buy a full warband very quickly. Problem is keeping that running, paying the missions costs, the skills, the healing will cost you a ton. Focus your money, keep a tight group (5 or 6 warriors max) till you have money stored, and try to focus the money you spend on the leader and 1 or 2 heroes max.

2 do not sell your wyrdstone at the begining. Keep it for the shipments. When you will have some aside raise your reputation in the main faction to 3, then sell as much as you can (there's a cap in red that will warn you when you are above) to one of the other. The price will be boosted and you will do a huge benefice.

3 same thing for the equipment. Do not sell it before you have the event that allows you to sell it for +50%

This should take care of financial issues early game.



Newbies equipment:

Leader and heroes should go 2 1 hand weapons, if possibly maces (they have a to hit bonus) or daggers (they give a malus to the opponent dodge/parry)
Henchmen should go 2 hand weapon, and try to use charge if possible to maximize their damages
Never EVER go for heavy armour early. They have a huge movement penalty. A guy that can't show to the fight is useless. I'd say everybody using dodge in shirts, the rest in leather.


Warriors selection

Assuming that you go for 5 men warbands, do not take more than 1 range unit. They are quite weak and inacurate at first, and take time to scale up. You will probably lack damage if you start with too many of them.
Also know that 4 men warband allows you more "easy"missions at the start.
Finally remember to have at least a back up leader, you can't take missions without one, so better plan early and buy it the 1st day.


Mission Deployement

3 things to check here:
First and foremost deployement type. Go for grouped missions, scattered require a lot of expereience. The secure one for 5 are scavengers, lost in the fog and rival in the ruins. For 4 men it is everything save Horror of Mordheim and vision of dread. remember, you can have 5 guys, and benchone if need be.
Second check the difficulty. Normal is the easiest, you should stick to that at first. If you are succesful try hard, there's not much of a difference. Don't go above (brutal or deadly) until you have gear AND experience. Finally remember that if you do not have normal or hard available you can scout 3 times for more missions. And if there's still not enough (or if you don't want to scout too much) you can pass a day without doing a mission. Better that than getting wiped.
Last the wyrdstone loot. The game is all about the stones. Allways take the deployement you can handle with the best wyrdstone loot. A henchman is worth 15 gold, the prize of a cluster of wyrdstone. The more you get the quicker you will be filthy rich and able to do whatever you want.


In battle

Rule of thumbs: STICK TOGETHER. As long as you are not EXTREMELY confident (and the first time youwill feel confident you will probably get your ♥♥♥ handed over to you on a plate) do not split your troops.
Open your map, look for the closest patch of wyrdstone, go for it, loot it. Rince and repeat until you meet the enemy.
When you see/engage the enemy:
FIGHT DIRTY. Allways prioritize fighting 2v1. You will cause all alone check for the opponents, if they run, free attacks for you. Focus fire as much as possible, a dead enemy is better than 2 50% life.
Try to have you henchmen take the initial strike. They are cheap, thus better loose them than that 60 gold hero. Especially if you paid to give him skills.
Finally keep an eye onthe moral bar (top left) The moment it goes below the threshold, there will be a rout test when it is an opponent unit turn. If it fails, combat over. No more looting time. Allways try to have at least one or two units available before the oppo turn when you deal the killing blow close to the threshold. Delay is your friend for this, it will move your warrior 3 steps down the initiative ladder.


Try to stick to this first, should help you survive till rank 3 or 4, then we can talk about skill builds :D


Stick with the game my friend, it does have a very steep learning curve but oh, what a game when you start to see it gel together! Never had such fun in a game before. Give it time.

[Brother PaciFist]

Originally posted by bcasner50:

Do a search for newbie tips, Prinz and some others offer some gems out there like the following:

...

Stick with the game my friend, it does have a very steep learning curve but oh, what a game when you start to see it gel together! Never had such fun in a game before. Give it time.

Thank you for your long post, bcasner50. I try to utilize some of those tips but get very quickly overwhelmed by bad luck. It not feel that my decisions matter at all. Only the dice rolls, that seem to be set against me.

[Drathnar1]

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

I started the game with a fresh warband as mercenaries and skaven. The game feels like a brick wall i run against. Even the very first missions are nearly impossible to win on a consistent basis.

As Castor mentioned, this game has a fairly steep learning curve at the start. It is also pretty unforgiving of mistakes. That being said the entire game is built upon the premise that missions are a serious continuous struggle every day, that there are no takebacks, consequences for a single blunder can be dire, that you have to live with your mistakes and the possibility of losing men is very real. It rewards players who consider every move carefully and are able to manage risk well. Having multiple saves would defeat the whole purpose of this design.
Also this game is essentially a computer adaptation of a tabletop board game. No takebacks are allowed either when playing the board game and so it's not surprising that the devs opted to do the same here.


I will address your points below as I hope you will give the game another shot.

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

For the gameplay. I read the forum and tried some "tactics" like hold the high ground with archers, hunker down in chokepoints.
Not that the tanks are tanky at all level 1 or 2.

As you've stated, low level units are unable to tank effectively, thus you have to get rid of incoming units fast. The most important thing in the early game is to stay grouped and overwhelm incoming enemy units with numbers and good positioning (make sure you can disengage heavily injured units to reduce OoAs). You have no skills, nor much gear and so you will only get the upper hand by having more men at the point of contact. It will take some experience to achieve this consistently.
A unit using heavy armor can be helpful for survivability if you place the unit appropriately and manage its movement well. Armor Proficiency is vital for long term play if you intend to use Heavy Armor often.

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

First of baby archers damage output is a joke.

It is true that ranged combatants and spellcasters are rather weak at low levels as they are quite dependent on skills and additional OP/SP to reach their full potential. Bringing too many at the start will certainly make missions harder. 1 Marksman out of 5 fielded units should be perfectly fine though. Buy a firearm (such as a Pistol) from the store if you have a bit of gold to spare, to make the best use of the 3 OP you have at the start. You can reequip Longbows once you hit L3 and have 4 OP.

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

Ah and every mission beside normal both players are gathered around their wagon is absolutely unplayable, because everytime the ai gangs up on lonely members of my party and gangs up on them hard.

Getting ganged up by the AI should be absolutely avoided as much as you can. This is your main problem I think and I would work on improving this first. Use the overhead map (shift key) to be able to better locate where enemy units are. Do not overextend your units if you are unsure where they are. Be patient and let them come to you (doubly so if you start off with split deployment). Meanwhile try to head for clumps of wyrdstone or items. Endeavor to move as a group and have units roughly within 1 turn's reach of each other so that they can readily reinforce attacked units. If you don't start grouped together, one of your first priorities is to minimize conflict and group them up.

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

Damage output of my recruits is a joke compared to the ai. I do like 17 to 20 damage, the ai puts out 30 to 40 or 70 70 in a row sometimes.

Damage output is mostly dependent on weapon and enemy's armor, with Strength and a few other factors being modifiers. If you're using white daggers to strike an enemy with heavy armor, you won't be doing much damage. Try to optimize your weapon setup with regards to your OP. Have a look at this Game Mechanics guide for further details.

The AI gets substantial hp and damage buffs on higher mission difficulties. A good number of players here recommend starting off with Normal (enemy hps+10%, damage+5%) and Hard (enemy hps+20%, damage+15%) missions first. If you can tackle these just fine without OoAs, you can try Brutal and Deadly.

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

The gold prices for skills are rediculous. Oh here you are a fresh player, enjoy our wild customization. Oh you can not afford a single skill.

Skills are the biggest gold sink in the game. You should ideally have Scholar (veteran skill) mastered before you train anything. There is no rush to get skills though. Enemy warband ratings scale with your own, so if you're slightly weaker, they'll be weaker as well. That being said, there are some key skills which will augment the unit's potency considerably (ie Quick Reload for shooters, Channeling for casters, Armor Proficient for units using Heavy Armor, Shield Specialist for units you plan on toting shields for the entire game and later on Web of Steel or Sidestep for Parry/Dodge tanks, etc).
But right at the start, don't worry too much about skills. They're not essential for winning. Instead focus on getting decent gear for all units first (blue and later purple weapons and armor).

Originally posted by Brother PaciFist:

I think you have a nice game concept on your hands, you could broaden your audience by far if you made your next games more casual friendly.

There are already a lot of casual friendly games out there. Does every game really need to be casual friendly. Darkest Dungeon also has enforced Ironman (no separate saves) and I believe it has a decent following as well.


Last but not least have a look at the New Player Guide for general tips if you get stuck.