Wow. The AI cheats in every way conceivable.

[Earnest]

So ~15 min into a game wherein the AI has bought 4 straight pirate (8k each) raids to deny me some water, it blows up with ~400k dollars to buy out all of my stock.

They have nothing on the map making them big money. They have built a single pleasure dome maybe 2 min prior to the zerg on my stock.

This is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. This game should be more fun than this. This was against the 2nd lowest AI, too.

Boo, devs. Boo.

[Eviator]

The AI has the potential to be more clever than you imagine. Consider these situations:

- You put down a quarry on a high silicon tile 100 seconds ago. You built 2 glass kilns 30 and 32 seconds ago. The price of silicon has only very slowly creeped up through the natural inflation. How much silicon do you have stored up? The computer, seeing all this happen without special knowledge other than what is observable in game, did the math and knows.

- You build a Patent lab, but let it sit idle for about 30 seconds. Then you choose a low cost patent to research. With one second left, the lab gets mutinied. Seems like cheating at first. But the AI has "watched" the animation of your patent lab (not literally) and waited until the animation has been active for 39 seconds. Then it does the mutiny.

- The Robotic AI estimates that you are about to go to HQ 4, but you don't have any glass kilns so you will have to buy that glass. Knowing this, the AI buys up glass with spare money, boosts the price delaying your upgrade, and once you do manage to finally upgrade he sells the glass he bought cheap for a huge profit. (Note 1: top players do this a lot. It's fun to watch Cubit32 play. Note 2: This same idea is why the AI is so very good at using the hacker array).

All these things I described a human could too, but most of us cannot divide out attention so well. Does that mean the AI is cheating? Depends upon your definition. It is playing by all the same rules as humans. Its advantage is that it doesn't have to fuss with an interface, and it can divide its attention to all knowable things simultaneously. Yet it is still beatable. Why? Because humans are not limited by axioms and logic written in code. The more logic the devs build into the AI, the more it will decide to take actions humans would take, and the better it gets.

Also, I recommend new players who don't like pausing to play the game at the slowest speed, and move the speed up as you get better. Gives you more time to think. Of course, games take longer, so there is a trade-off.

[Tanelorn]

There's been a lot of good discussion here already, I probably came in too late, but this is what I see and I HATE the AI on manager.

1. Number of structures. I end the game with all my claims made and even an extra one or two from auctions or black market buys. I end the game with ~35 structures. All the AI have 50 structures which IS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ CHEATING!!! It simply isn't possible for them to have TWICE the claims that I have. Claims aren't something you can mismanage and have significantly less of. You build to tier 5 and you get your max claims. You may get a few more from BM and auctions BUT NOT 25 MORE!

2. Massively faster development. The AI is ALWAYS 1-2 tiers faster than me no matter how effectively I play. Those upgrades take 100s of steel and other materials, and even though I build steel mills I am always MASSIVELY behind in the production of critical supplies compared to the AI.

The thing is, I can't just copycat what the AI is doing and keep up with them. They ALWAYS do better than me regardless. I simply don't believe that it plays by the same rules. As this is Early Access, we DESERVE a feedback window that shows the performance of the AI's economy compared to our own. A console command or whatever. Only then will I believe that the AI doesn't cheat to hell in manager difficulty.

[SorenJohnson]

Number of structures includes structures that are rebuilt, so if the AI deletes all their buildings and makes different ones, that stat will be twice as high even if they have the same number of claims as you.

AI plays the same game as you on Manager. The release code is public, so people are free to take a look.

[Tanelorn]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SorenJohnson:

Number of structures includes structures that are rebuilt, so if the AI deletes all their buildings and makes different ones, that stat will be twice as high even if they have the same number of claims as you.

AI plays the same game as you on Manager. The release code is public, so people are free to take a look.

Thanks for that clarification.
However, I just tried another skirmish and observed:

--
I just started a skirmish on the level below manager (employee?) and even then, the AI ugrades their bases WITHIN 60 SECONDS of game start. There is NO WAY that I can do that. They don't even have their facilities built, and even if I sell every resource I have (except for the required ones for upgrade) I am way short. IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for me to mimic the AI. They CLEARLY cheat!

[culsu]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanelorn:

Początkowo opublikowane przez SorenJohnson:

Number of structures includes structures that are rebuilt, so if the AI deletes all their buildings and makes different ones, that stat will be twice as high even if they have the same number of claims as you.

AI plays the same game as you on Manager. The release code is public, so people are free to take a look.

Thanks for that clarification.
However, I just tried another skirmish and observed:

--
I just started a skirmish on the level below manager (employee?) and even then, the AI ugrades their bases WITHIN 60 SECONDS of game start. There is NO WAY that I can do that. They don't even have their facilities built, and even if I sell every resource I have (except for the required ones for upgrade) I am way short. IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for me to mimic the AI. They CLEARLY cheat!

I do that sometimes, if you plop down on enough resources and sell everything you can upgrade immediately (easier with robotic or expansionist). The other good starts are to monopolize a resource, or sell everything and buy as much glass as possible before others do (because realistically, everyone will be buying glass shortly).

I have not been playing long, but finished all of the tutorials (including the manager one) and a single campaign. The AI is indeed a challenge, but you can learn many tactics by watching it too. Expansionist has been my favorite so far.

Making life support and rushing an offworld market is probably one of the most stable strategies. Everyone needs it so there will be some demand early and late, and usually the best offworld sale is oxygen or fuel. It is almost entirely useless to do this without a goon squad (or mutiny), as everybody will dogpile your launch site when it goes up (this also means you need to buy the first one early, or avoid D grade debt).

Having a mutiny ready in case someone gets an offworld market can be game changing, it is strongly suggested you have one ready if it is available. Once you have your own market you should always have a goon squad purchased in reserve if you can until the price gets to be more than the launch is worth. This will severly limit your ability to buy claims, but you cannot afford to lose control of your market, and you will if you do not have a steady stream of goons.

Keep an eye on electricity, the price can entirely sink you if nobody is selling it and it starts climbing uncontested, so you must be prepared to level some buildings and produce your own power if it starts becoming excessively expensive.

[Eviator]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanelorn:

I just started a skirmish on the level below manager (employee?) and even then, the AI ugrades their bases WITHIN 60 SECONDS of game start. There is NO WAY that I can do that. They don't even have their facilities built, and even if I sell every resource I have (except for the required ones for upgrade) I am way short. IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for me to mimic the AI. They CLEARLY cheat!

The first time you manage to plop down and upgrade within a few seconds, you will realize it's not cheating, it's good found selection.

[Gazelle]

Another thing is that when you find manager to difficult, you can just play at one of the other difficulty settings. I am happy with the AI because it gives you a challenge, but still a winnable challenge.

[SorenJohnson]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanelorn:

Początkowo opublikowane przez SorenJohnson:

Number of structures includes structures that are rebuilt, so if the AI deletes all their buildings and makes different ones, that stat will be twice as high even if they have the same number of claims as you.

AI plays the same game as you on Manager. The release code is public, so people are free to take a look.

Thanks for that clarification.
However, I just tried another skirmish and observed:

--
I just started a skirmish on the level below manager (employee?) and even then, the AI ugrades their bases WITHIN 60 SECONDS of game start. There is NO WAY that I can do that. They don't even have their facilities built, and even if I sell every resource I have (except for the required ones for upgrade) I am way short. IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for me to mimic the AI. They CLEARLY cheat!

The AI is probably founding its HQ on top of a bunch of resources, which provides a one-time bonus. They are probably also Robotic, which gets double the bonus and can also sell 10 Electronics to help afford other upgrade resources. (Plus, Robotic need half as much Aluminum.)

Every game you play has a replay, so you can watch what the AI is doing. Press 1,2,3,4... to switch between the players in the game.

[Tanelorn]

ok thanks for the perspective.

[|v£|Frozen DDD]

The popularity of this thread, does speak volumes as to the problems of making an AI capable of exactly the same thing as the player, but at the AI speed, which most will not accomplish. It also says something about the AI given that you can usually outplay it with certain specific tactics they can't handle.

[sawchain]

I have a replay where an AI is producing steel without having, producing, or buying iron. Similarly, he is producing electronics without having, producing, or buying the requisite components. Also, he has no fuel, and fuel consumption/production is negative, but his debt summary doesn't show any fuel being purchased at all. It's very clear that the AI is producing and using higher level goods without having, producing or purchasing the requisite components.

Screenshot of fuel production (consumption) vs debt accrual:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735254506

Screenshot of electronics production vs requisite components. Carbon is -4.0 with no stockpile. Silicon is -0.1 with no stockpile. However, Electronics production is at +1.65. Also notice that the electronics factory auto-supply is OFF, so AI isn't purchasing those components.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735254603

[Stabby McStabStab]

Początkowo opublikowane przez sawchain:

I have a replay where an AI is producing steel without having, producing, or buying iron. Similarly, he is producing electronics without having, producing, or buying the requisite components. Also, he has no fuel, and fuel consumption/production is negative, but his debt summary doesn't show any fuel being purchased at all. It's very clear that the AI is producing and using higher level goods without having, producing or purchasing the requisite components.

Screenshot of fuel production (consumption) vs debt accrual:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735254506

Screenshot of electronics production vs requisite components. Carbon is -4.0 with no stockpile. Silicon is -0.1 with no stockpile. However, Electronics production is at +1.65. Also notice that the electronics factory auto-supply is OFF, so AI isn't purchasing those components.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735254603

Illuminati confirmed.

[SorenJohnson]

Początkowo opublikowane przez sawchain:

I have a replay where an AI is producing steel without having, producing, or buying iron. Similarly, he is producing electronics without having, producing, or buying the requisite components. Also, he has no fuel, and fuel consumption/production is negative, but his debt summary doesn't show any fuel being purchased at all. It's very clear that the AI is producing and using higher level goods without having, producing or purchasing the requisite components.

Screenshot of fuel production (consumption) vs debt accrual:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735254506

Screenshot of electronics production vs requisite components. Carbon is -4.0 with no stockpile. Silicon is -0.1 with no stockpile. However, Electronics production is at +1.65. Also notice that the electronics factory auto-supply is OFF, so AI isn't purchasing those components.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=735254603

- Robotic HQs use Power instead of Fuel, which is why the AI is not losing money to Fuel. The Fuel is going into its Chem Labs.
- AI always uses auto-supply, whether or not the button is on or not, which is why it is consuming Carbon and Silicon and making Electronics.
- I don't see the AI producing Steel in either of the screenshots. The stockpile is likely from just buying Steel directly. (It is probably saving up to buy an Offworld.)

[sawchain]

Thanks, Soren. That the auto-supply UI doesn't show caused confusion on my part. It means the AI is buying the requisite resources, and I simply don't see it happening. I might be able to see the price change when a purchase is made, but tracking price changes down to a particular player? Pfft. Good luck with that.

[Terotrous]

Honestly I don't think it's so much that the AI cheats as there's a lot of stuff the tutorial doesn't really tell you. Also, playing on the lower difficulties where you have like infinite claims and money really doesn't prepare you for the manager level where suddenly claims are extremely scarce. I actually think the game is somewhat more fun when there's more claims available because there's more to do and less waiting.

For example, one thing I only realized from watching those dev videos is that you can buy stuff from the black market and just hold onto it for (potentially much) later. I would often buy Mutinies because they were cheap, only to find there wasn't really anything I wanted to use it on. Now I know I could have just saved it until I desperately needed it. You can also claim a tile even if you can't afford to build anything there, which is super important knowledge that the game doesn't mention.

It's also good to know there's an option where you can put auto-supply on by default, again I had no idea this was possible until it was mentioned in the dev video. When the tutorial makes you use it it should probably mention that it exists or even ask you if you want to turn it on.