Templars??

[TermusJar]

these guys are useless

[Vogelmeister]

Originally posted by Olin011:

Originally posted by V-Fib:

Yup, they always have. Only fight them in melee as a last resort.

Unless you flashbang them and then you can start the slaughter. Or soften them up first and move your Templar close to them if you have bladestorm so they are tempted to melee him in their round. Doesn't always work 100% but often it is quite reliable way to bait the mutons and finish them off.

Are mutons less likely to counterattack if disoriented?

[Aleera]

Originally posted by Vogelmeister:

Originally posted by Olin011:

Unless you flashbang them and then you can start the slaughter. Or soften them up first and move your Templar close to them if you have bladestorm so they are tempted to melee him in their round. Doesn't always work 100% but often it is quite reliable way to bait the mutons and finish them off.

Are mutons less likely to counterattack if disoriented?

Disoiriented means they can't use skills. Their counterattack is a skill. :P

Even so, I love the templar, but t3 blades should ignore up too 5 armor at the very least. They are after all psionic blades. This would instantly make them usefull for lategame as well.

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by Aleera:

Originally posted by Vogelmeister:

Are mutons less likely to counterattack if disoriented?

Disoiriented means they can't use skills. Their counterattack is a skill. :P

Even so, I love the templar, but t3 blades should ignore up too 5 armor at the very least. They are after all psionic blades. This would instantly make them usefull for lategame as well.

I must agree. Because they should be able phase-out from our dimensions only to phase-in to our dimension right into enemy without actually having to "cut" through that armor.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Nova225:

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

Just curious - whatt make templar so good for you? There is no enemy he can kill in one turn beside trooper and sectoid, particualrly later with alrge hp pools. No multiple atatcks (you must have luck to get at least reaper or bladestorm), nothing against armored enemies (half later game..) no utility except invert (that one is awesome though)...

There's no late-game enemy that any class can kill in one turn except for maybe a Ranger with Rapid Fire. The idea is you soften enemies up then use the Templar to deal the finishing blow to gather focus. With three focus they deal plenty of damage with Rend, on par with plasma weapons.

Not realy.

Reaper can kill even ruler or sectopod in one turn.

Majority of classes has multiple attacks (skirmisher by defaul or even more with battlelord, grenadier chain shot, ranger rapid fire, sniper with his pistol) Also all of them has some way how to deal with enemy armor (templar not). never reason why value Amplify and Aftershock bonus over rupture and holo(that is used together with shredding as opener!).

As finisher? Maybe, but ranger or sniper with serial do the same job (also note neither reaper or bladestorm is defualt skill of tempalr and you need be lucky to have them)

Maybe soemone has use for conjure cover from nothing but I never used it.

Probably only class behind templar in combat effectivness (damage output) is specialist - but he has majority of other utility skills. Onyl reason I would ever consider take templar late game on legend with me is Invert and Void conduct - but I woudl hardly mark him as "god" for it.

PS: Of course it is no-brainer take him against chosen if he or she ahs vurneability to templar..

[TermusJar]

Get Templar they cool looking edgy. Start a fight vs armorred sector pod both got their guts pushed out. Gg wp never hire the wanna be psy soldier. Honestly vanilla psy operative is more deadly.

[Tiasmoon]

Originally posted by Enorats:

Yeah, on higher difficulties I could see their damage being a problem. Veteran difficulty they're able to take down anything with 11-12 HP, which for me is most everything. What they can't take down themselves can be softened by a grenade to allow them to wipe out whatever it is.

That might just be why so many are finding them underwhelming I guess, they're not really balanced to go up against aliens with the stupidly huge HP seen in higher difficulties.

That's also why raising the HP in higher difficulties is such a poor way of increasing difficulty.

Right at the start on Legend they can one shot troopers, or two shot officers; so thats nice damage. However being melee reliant means they will often pull extra pods. Since they cant one shot anything that isnt a sectoid or basic trooper that makes them more of a liability then an asset.

They get some great abilities later on, but take a long time to get there. Unlike the Reaper who is in a similar boat they dont provide extra vision.

Bladestorm is great on a Templar, and Reaper pretty usefull too. But both are random abilities so you might get neither. Without them your Templar will suck for most of the game. (Reapers have a similar issue with Tactical Rigging and Deadeye)

[Martian Patriot]

Originally posted by Sigmnt:

Get Templar they cool looking edgy. Start a fight vs armorred sector pod both got their guts pushed out. Gg wp never hire the wanna be psy soldier. Honestly vanilla psy operative is more deadly.

why would you fight a sectopod with just a templar and some other guy? If a sectopod is on the field you want atleast 4 members of your party to be concentrated on them. And it's just a waste of a Templar to have them go into melee on something that they won't kill in their rend immediately unless you can use their momentum to move to good cover or that's the only enemy in sight in which parry will solve everything. Also if you're lucky enough for your Templar to have the reaper mode skill its GG

[theworld]

Originally posted by Traim:

Wait, what??? Im playing on Legendary, Im having the second Tier for the Templergauntlets and am on the verge of the third tier. But even with 3 Focus a Templer does not deal enough damage to one-hit a Chryssalid, leave alone an Andromedon or Andromedonshell. Thats just nonsense on that difficulty.

I guess it is like with Reaperability, on Commander or Legendary that skill is just not worth it, as enemies have way too much HP.
I have a lot more lot better solutions to kill Andromedons or Chryssalids with one Soldier in one turn, Templers are lacking behind all of them... I am acutally pretty underwhelmed by that class, as currently even the Lost have mostly more hitpoints than the Templar can deal with his melee even on full focus.

I dont think its really a matter of how you play them, but more of what difficulty you are on. Just like with the ranger, melee gets pretty useless on Legendary compared to the critdamage achieveable by Rapidfire with Talonrounds and superior Laserpointer. But even on Plasma, even with +1 Shotgundamage, that wont kill a Sectopod on its own (but gets it pretty close...maybe close enough for the Templar to actually finish it).

I like my Templar, I use it mostly to kill wounded enemies behind high cover and bait the attacks on him while he has parry, however, its rare that any enemy survives a turn and has a chance to actually do an attack on me. But I would say, at least on Legendary Difficulty, he is severly underpowered compared to the other new guys.

The problem is you either have Bladestorm or you don't. Without Bladestorm Templar is not good enough until Colonel.

With Bladestorm you can effectively count that as 2 attacks, because the target will get hit again with Bladestorm before it does anything. 2 Attacks with 0 cooldown is superior to Chain shot, Rapid Fire (in WOTC) and Fan Fire. If you get Bladestorm early all Lost missions are trivial because he will mow down everyone who isn't Lost Brute.

At Colonel there's Ghost and Ionic Storm, which does 12-18 at 3 Focus and restores Focus on kills, which is not hard to do with that kind of damage and huge AoE. It also ignores armor as does all PSI damage.

There's also skill that drops PSI loot which greatly helps to build or rebuild 3 Focus even if you don't kill with Rend.

Amplify is very good vs Chosen and Rulers and it stacks with Rupture.

[Traim]

Originally posted by Nova225:

There's no late-game enemy that any class can kill in one turn except for maybe a Ranger with Rapid Fire. The idea is you soften enemies up then use the Templar to deal the finishing blow to gather focus. With three focus they deal plenty of damage with Rend, on par with plasma weapons.

My Sniper, my Grenadier, my Reaper and my Skirmisher would like to have a word with you...
You know, even my Psi-Op and my Specialist are having decent options to kill enemies in one turn. Psi-Op with Void-Rift and Insanitycombo can kill Lategame Stunlancers and Troopers, aswell as Sectoids and Vipers, even if they dont deal the killing blow, getting Rupture on a whole Pod of Mutons or on 2 Archons is way more helpfull than a Rend with Parry... Dominate an Andromedon and you have not just taken out a very deadly opponent, but also gained a very effective tank for the rest of the whole mission.
As a specialist use the skilljack and Instakill all the dumb Shieldbearers in sight, before they can provide 5 additional blocks of health to everyone. Arguably, not better than Rend + Parry or an additional move after attacking, specially as Skulljacking can fail. Still, its a Onehitter that ignores armor and hitpoints.
On every other class I can put a variety of Attechments on the guns to get a significant boost to that classes power. Give your Ranger more crit, your Sniper and Grenadier more Accuracy (always give Grenadiers Scopes, its soooo good combined with Holotargetting and Chainshot! Put on Bluescreenrounds and you can deal up to 40 Damage against a Sectopod in one turn! Do that with a Templar...), you can get up to a 20% Instakillchance on each gun with Repeaters, gain additional attacks and moves with Hairtriggers and clear whole pods with a single ranger... Now, the Templar? Cant put anything on him, even with the improved armor you are confined to one Item.... Why??? He does not really offer that much utility compared to a Psi-Op or a Specialist, and even they can bring 2 itrems with upgraded armor!

So all in all... the Templars Damage is lacking behind other classes, his utility is lacking behind other classes (yes, invert is nice, but honestly, its more fluff than substantional, it does not offer the same level of combatsolution as for example Run+Gun offers for the Ranger; specially as Invert ends your turn, so you cant even attack from your new position...), the possible Items and Augmentations are more limited than other classes, the number of possible attacks are lacking behind every other class.... So...what exactly is the Templar superior as? As a tank? Because of multiple parry and possible damagereflection? Maybe... But I prefer a playstyle were enemies dont get a chance to shoot me, because I kill them before its their turn. And if there is too much to handle in one turn, I can even the odds with Stasis, Mimicbeacons, Desorientation, Freezing, Hacking a Turrot or Bot (as they dont have cover, enemies will prefer to shoot them), Miindcontrolling something that actually does not die from a few shots (Andromedon, highlvl Captain with high dodge or something like that).... Well, all in all, I must say the templar seems to be the weakest class at the moment. Would love to see them buffed, as I really like the fluff they bring with them and I still play them and take them on missions. Im just aware of how limiting it is to do so.

[Traim]

Originally posted by KaneBlackHand:

The problem is you either have Bladestorm or you don't. Without Bladestorm Templar is not good enough until Colonel.

With Bladestorm you can effectively count that as 2 attacks, because the target will get hit again with Bladestorm before it does anything. 2 Attacks with 0 cooldown is superior to Chain shot, Rapid Fire (in WOTC) and Fan Fire. If you get Bladestorm early all Lost missions are trivial because he will mow down everyone who isn't Lost Brute.

At Colonel there's Ghost and Ionic Storm, which does 12-18 at 3 Focus and restores Focus on kills, which is not hard to do with that kind of damage and huge AoE. It also ignores armor as does all PSI damage.

There's also skill that drops PSI loot which greatly helps to build or rebuild 3 Focus even if you don't kill with Rend.

Amplify is very good vs Chosen and Rulers and it stacks with Rupture.

Okay, I see how Bladestorm does make a difference for the templar, specially early - midgame. Too bad its a Rangerskill... I got only Sniperskills as Xcom-Skills on my Templar, and with his below average aim, Quickshot is not that good on him.

12-18 AOE Dmg is decent, I agree. However, once you have colones you can deal a lot more damage with one Soldier in one turn. My Ranger just killed the Assassin almost all by himself, flankingshot with a plasmashotgon and 90% critchance, rapidfire dealt almost 40 dmg, than his BFF gave him an additional attack... Assassin dead.

The Psi-Loot is actually pretty annoying, if the same enemy drops regular loot, you wont see it, because its colorcoded as psi-loot. Had ppl pick up loot when entering the Psilootarea who were not Templars a few times now. Wonder how much actual Loot I missed, because I ignored the gazillions psiloots loitering around (I have the Lost World Dark Event active and it wont stop spawning hordes...).

To be fair, put an extended Magazine on a Sniper and you will never have trouble with Losthordes. At my current game I encounter them on every single mission for 3 months now, they get really annyoing, as they simply do not provide any interesting or challenging combatsituation and do not really require any tactic or strategy to counter other than counting healthbars... I am annoyed by this to the point, that I actually think about simply erasing this darkevent out of the .inifile, so that I never ever see it again...

However; as far as I see it, there seems to be a solution to the powerdeficiancy in templars... Give them Bladestorm as classspecific skill or something similar. The Skirmisher gets the same with other name for his claw too, so I dont see why that shouldnt be possible.
Might ask for someone to make a mod for this.... I think that Pillar is a good skill to replace, as its completly useless and no one with an intact mind will ever take it.

[V-Fib]

Originally posted by Aleera:

Originally posted by Vogelmeister:

Are mutons less likely to counterattack if disoriented?

Disoiriented means they can't use skills. Their counterattack is a skill. :P

Even so, I love the templar, but t3 blades should ignore up too 5 armor at the very least. They are after all psionic blades. This would instantly make them usefull for lategame as well.

Agree with it ignoring armor. I'm guessing it won't take long to mod it in.

[No Guts No Glory]

Originally posted by Traim:

Originally posted by KaneBlackHand:

The problem is you either have Bladestorm or you don't. Without Bladestorm Templar is not good enough until Colonel.

With Bladestorm you can effectively count that as 2 attacks, because the target will get hit again with Bladestorm before it does anything. 2 Attacks with 0 cooldown is superior to Chain shot, Rapid Fire (in WOTC) and Fan Fire. If you get Bladestorm early all Lost missions are trivial because he will mow down everyone who isn't Lost Brute.

At Colonel there's Ghost and Ionic Storm, which does 12-18 at 3 Focus and restores Focus on kills, which is not hard to do with that kind of damage and huge AoE. It also ignores armor as does all PSI damage.

There's also skill that drops PSI loot which greatly helps to build or rebuild 3 Focus even if you don't kill with Rend.

Amplify is very good vs Chosen and Rulers and it stacks with Rupture.

Okay, I see how Bladestorm does make a difference for the templar, specially early - midgame. Too bad its a Rangerskill... I got only Sniperskills as Xcom-Skills on my Templar, and with his below average aim, Quickshot is not that good on him.

12-18 AOE Dmg is decent, I agree. However, once you have colones you can deal a lot more damage with one Soldier in one turn. My Ranger just killed the Assassin almost all by himself, flankingshot with a plasmashotgon and 90% critchance, rapidfire dealt almost 40 dmg, than his BFF gave him an additional attack... Assassin dead.

The Psi-Loot is actually pretty annoying, if the same enemy drops regular loot, you wont see it, because its colorcoded as psi-loot. Had ppl pick up loot when entering the Psilootarea who were not Templars a few times now. Wonder how much actual Loot I missed, because I ignored the gazillions psiloots loitering around (I have the Lost World Dark Event active and it wont stop spawning hordes...).

To be fair, put an extended Magazine on a Sniper and you will never have trouble with Losthordes. At my current game I encounter them on every single mission for 3 months now, they get really annyoing, as they simply do not provide any interesting or challenging combatsituation and do not really require any tactic or strategy to counter other than counting healthbars... I am annoyed by this to the point, that I actually think about simply erasing this darkevent out of the .inifile, so that I never ever see it again...

However; as far as I see it, there seems to be a solution to the powerdeficiancy in templars... Give them Bladestorm as classspecific skill or something similar. The Skirmisher gets the same with other name for his claw too, so I dont see why that shouldnt be possible.
Might ask for someone to make a mod for this.... I think that Pillar is a good skill to replace, as its completly useless and no one with an intact mind will ever take it.

Well Pillar in its current state is indeed useless but if they removed Focus cost and turn limit + made it working only for your units it would be pretty decent.

[Archmage MC]

They start off weak, but eventually become incredibly strong. Ionic Storm hitting a pod for 18 is pretty powerful. And ofc their swap positon skills are gerat vs Chosen.

[reminisce]

the difference between a templar with bladestorm and reaper and one without is huge, pray to the RNG gods u get both, and I agree with soemone above me since they do psionic dmg why not let them ignore armor?

[droggen]

Originally posted by Sigmnt:

these guys are useless

To each their own I find them pretty good kind of regret not getting them in my campaign sooner I actully dislike the skirmishers and reapers are my cup of tea always loved stealth an entire class built on it yes please.