Mandatory Ray-Tracing?

[John Oblivion]

I'm not a fan of this. I'm sure the game is going to be fine, but I hate the idea that the game requires ray-tracing. I've never heard of a game having mandatory Ray-Tracing before. Hopefully they'll eventually patch it and include some baked lighting, that way people without an RTX Capable GPU can play it. I have a GPU capable of Ray-Tracing, I just don't like the idea of using it due to performance hits.

[joridiculous]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por joridiculous:

there is a reason RTX cards are named RTX and not GTX2 cards.
Only the RTX cards have the RT Cores ("Raytracing" Cores) No GTX card have these.

Yeah, the reason is to sell you a new GPU again. Same reason there is new 50 series, which is little bit faster in overall performance, but mainly faster in raytracing performance and hallucination of new frames, so you could finally enjoy raytracing at higher framerate.

CUDA cores have done raytracing since 2009 and Unreal Engine has done "software" raytracing since 5.0. RT cores are just more specialized for doing one thing and one thing only, but that doesn't mean that CUDA cores can't do the same thing at lower settings.

please use google / duckduckgo / brave etc and get a bit of education on the matter. Then you can come back and post a big L reply.

[Dagtag]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por joridiculous:

there is a reason RTX cards are named RTX and not GTX2 cards.
Only the RTX cards have the RT Cores ("Raytracing" Cores) No GTX card have these.

Yeah, the reason is to sell you a new GPU again. Same reason there is new 50 series, which is little bit faster in overall performance, but mainly faster in raytracing performance and hallucination of new frames, so you could finally enjoy raytracing at higher framerate.

CUDA cores have done raytracing since 2009 and Unreal Engine has done "software" raytracing since 5.0. RT cores are just more specialized for doing one thing and one thing only, but that doesn't mean that CUDA cores can't do the same thing at lower settings.

At a slideshow pace, sure.

But again, hardware solutions are always going to be better… so while it can physically run, it is not viable.

[tarmo888]

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Yeah, the reason is to sell you a new GPU again. Same reason there is new 50 series, which is little bit faster in overall performance, but mainly faster in raytracing performance and hallucination of new frames, so you could finally enjoy raytracing at higher framerate.

CUDA cores have done raytracing since 2009 and Unreal Engine has done "software" raytracing since 5.0. RT cores are just more specialized for doing one thing and one thing only, but that doesn't mean that CUDA cores can't do the same thing at lower settings.

At a slideshow pace, sure.

But again, hardware solutions are always going to be better… so while it can physically run, it is not viable.

Yes, path tracing options would be slideshow, but global illumination wouldn't, especially on lower settings and lower resolution. CUDA is hardware, just slower.

[Mav99]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Yes, path tracing options would be slideshow, but global illumination wouldn't, especially on lower settings and lower resolution.

That's debatable but hey, believe it if you want to. It doesn't matter anyway.

People have moved on an the remaining GTX cards will disappear eventually. Right now there are about 17% of Steam users still using them and maybe 4% of these cards are fast enough for this CUDA RT-emulation. No one is going to waste any time or money on implementing this in Vulkan. No developer will design a game to run on this. Maybe DRX will still work on these cards for a while with ultra low settings. But eventually, as more and more games will use REAL hardware ray-tracing, more and more games will become unplayable.

You can argue about semantics all you want, that won't change the facts. As I said several times before: These cards might not be entirely dead yet but they're dying fast...

[tarmo888]

Escrito originalmente por Mav99:

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Yes, path tracing options would be slideshow, but global illumination wouldn't, especially on lower settings and lower resolution.

That's debatable but hey, believe it if you want to. It doesn't matter anyway.

Not really, Xbox Series S has lower than lowest PC settings to hit 60fps. Steam Deck is weaker than 16 series, runs it at 30fps. Many other games have basic global illumination that runs on those with XeSS or FSR. Even using meshlets, which the game doesn't seem to use, wouldn't stop it from running on GTX 16 series as it's using the same architecture as RTX 20 series.

Escrito originalmente por Mav99:

You can argue about semantics all you want, that won't change the facts. As I said several times before: These cards might not be entirely dead yet but they're dying fast...

Not semantics, these are facts. If you can't get the facts straight, you only have inaccurate slogans that people repeat. People like you think that even xx60 variants are dead because they have only 8GB, but Nvidia keeps releasing them because these entry-level GPUs are meant for people who game sub-1080p.

[Dagtag]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

At a slideshow pace, sure.

But again, hardware solutions are always going to be better… so while it can physically run, it is not viable.

Yes, path tracing options would be slideshow, but global illumination wouldn't, especially on lower settings and lower resolution. CUDA is hardware, just slower.

Omg dude you genuinely don’t seem to grasp it….

Yes, even rtgi would be running at snail pace…

Cuda is hardware, its not the hardware required to run rt

[Dagtag]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por Mav99:

That's debatable but hey, believe it if you want to. It doesn't matter anyway.

Not really, Xbox Series S has lower than lowest PC settings to hit 60fps. Steam Deck is weaker than 16 series, runs it at 30fps. Many other games have basic global illumination that runs on those with XeSS or FSR. Even using meshlets, which the game doesn't seem to use, wouldn't stop it from running on GTX 16 series as it's using the same architecture as RTX 20 series.

Escrito originalmente por Mav99:

You can argue about semantics all you want, that won't change the facts. As I said several times before: These cards might not be entirely dead yet but they're dying fast...

Not semantics, these are facts. If you can't get the facts straight, you only have inaccurate slogans that people repeat. People like you think that even xx60 variants are dead because they have only 8GB, but Nvidia keeps releasing them because these entry-level GPUs are meant for people who game sub-1080p.

Dude you’re are so wrong on all counts….

Those other gpu’s and devices HAVE RT CORES. They have the hardware required to support the hardware solution….

Can i ask you, have you ever implemented any form of software/hardware ray tracing or rasterisation?

[tarmo888]

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Not really, Xbox Series S has lower than lowest PC settings to hit 60fps. Steam Deck is weaker than 16 series, runs it at 30fps. Many other games have basic global illumination that runs on those with XeSS or FSR. Even using meshlets, which the game doesn't seem to use, wouldn't stop it from running on GTX 16 series as it's using the same architecture as RTX 20 series.

Not semantics, these are facts. If you can't get the facts straight, you only have inaccurate slogans that people repeat. People like you think that even xx60 variants are dead because they have only 8GB, but Nvidia keeps releasing them because these entry-level GPUs are meant for people who game sub-1080p.

Dude you’re are so wrong on all counts….

Those other gpu’s and devices HAVE RT CORES. They have the hardware required to support the hardware solution….

You sound like the character from Idiocracy: "But Brawndo has what plants crave! It's got electrolytes!"

The amount of RT cores Xbox Series S and Steam Deck have is so low that their work can be done by other hardware, not even software emulation with CPU, but compute cores like CUDA. GTX 1080 Ti has way more raw power than Xbox Series S or Steam Deck, GTX 1660 Ti is around the same ballpark as Xbox Series S. And Xbox Series S has lower settings than what is possible to set on PC, that's the fact.

[Dagtag]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Dude you’re are so wrong on all counts….

Those other gpu’s and devices HAVE RT CORES. They have the hardware required to support the hardware solution….

You sound like the character from Idiocracy: "But Brawndo has what plants crave! It's got electrolytes!"

The amount of RT cores Xbox Series S and Steam Deck have is so low that their work can be done by other hardware, not even software emulation with CPU, but compute cores like CUDA. GTX 1080 Ti has way more raw power than Xbox Series S or Steam Deck, GTX 1660 Ti is around the same ballpark as Xbox Series S. And Xbox Series S has lower settings than what is possible to set on PC, that's the fact.

No, you just don’t know how these things work…

For reference, i have made actual rasteriser and ray tracer engines, both software AND hardware based, what you are suggesting is absolutely not true.

[tarmo888]

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

You sound like the character from Idiocracy: "But Brawndo has what plants crave! It's got electrolytes!"

The amount of RT cores Xbox Series S and Steam Deck have is so low that their work can be done by other hardware, not even software emulation with CPU, but compute cores like CUDA. GTX 1080 Ti has way more raw power than Xbox Series S or Steam Deck, GTX 1660 Ti is around the same ballpark as Xbox Series S. And Xbox Series S has lower settings than what is possible to set on PC, that's the fact.

No, you just don’t know how these things work…

For reference, i have made actual rasteriser and ray tracer engines, both software AND hardware based, what you are suggesting is absolutely not true.

That's useless reference, most games use the DXR API, in which case, the developer doesn't need to create separate solutions. Try to keep up.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-gtx-ray-tracing-coming-soon/

[Dagtag]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

No, you just don’t know how these things work…

For reference, i have made actual rasteriser and ray tracer engines, both software AND hardware based, what you are suggesting is absolutely not true.

That's useless reference, most games use the DXR API, in which case, the developer doesn't need to create separate solutions. Try to keep up.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-gtx-ray-tracing-coming-soon/

Its not about separate solutions. Its about the solution requiring translation on your end resulting in awful performance.

You are delusional if you think rtgi is viable on a gtx gpu

[tarmo888]

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

That's useless reference, most games use the DXR API, in which case, the developer doesn't need to create separate solutions. Try to keep up.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-gtx-ray-tracing-coming-soon/

Its not about separate solutions. Its about the solution requiring translation on your end resulting in awful performance.

You are delusional if you think rtgi is viable on a gtx gpu

Nope, no matter if you consider RTGI to mean ray traced global illusion or real-time global illumination. Indiana Jones has no time of day change (only Vatican has 2 different time of days), so the global illumination is static, you get actual real-time global illumination when you turn on path tracing - cascaded shadowmaps are replaced with real-time soft shadows, light gets more accurate bounces and global illumination gets color bleed for bounce lighting. But even then you can make it less real-time by disabling vegetation animations, which means that it won't be able to use the ray-traced result from cache. That's why Indiana Jones is so performant, it still fakes a lot without path tracing.

On Unreal Engine 5 games and some indie developers own engines or even on some Unity games, real-time global illumination exists, yet some gamers yell that it's unoptimized because they don't even understand that they have global illumination. Heck, even Quake 2 RTX does path-tracing on GTX 1660 Super. I guess you are right, running RTGI on GTX is impossible.

[Dagtag]

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Its not about separate solutions. Its about the solution requiring translation on your end resulting in awful performance.

You are delusional if you think rtgi is viable on a gtx gpu

Nope, no matter if you consider RTGI to mean ray traced global illusion or real-time global illumination. Indiana Jones has no time of day change (only Vatican has 2 different time of days), so the global illumination is static, you get actual real-time global illumination when you turn on path tracing - cascaded shadowmaps are replaced with real-time soft shadows, light gets more accurate bounces and global illumination gets color bleed for bounce lighting. But even then you can make it less real-time by disabling vegetation animations, which means that it won't be able to use the ray-traced result from cache. That's why Indiana Jones is so performant, it still fakes a lot without path tracing.

On Unreal Engine 5 games and some indie developers own engines or even on some Unity games, real-time global illumination exists, yet some gamers yell that it's unoptimized because they don't even understand that they have global illumination. Heck, even Quake 2 RTX does path-tracing on GTX 1660 Super. I guess you are right, running RTGI on GTX is impossible.

You still don’t grasp the difference between software and hardware solutions…

Quake 2 is a non argument, have you seen how basic that game is? There is a reason it works on gtx gpu’s….

More complex games like indiana jones simply won’t run as you want them to on gtx gpu’s…

All this coping just because you are running 6 years behind

[tarmo888]

Escrito originalmente por Dagtag:

Escrito originalmente por tarmo888:

Nope, no matter if you consider RTGI to mean ray traced global illusion or real-time global illumination. Indiana Jones has no time of day change (only Vatican has 2 different time of days), so the global illumination is static, you get actual real-time global illumination when you turn on path tracing - cascaded shadowmaps are replaced with real-time soft shadows, light gets more accurate bounces and global illumination gets color bleed for bounce lighting. But even then you can make it less real-time by disabling vegetation animations, which means that it won't be able to use the ray-traced result from cache. That's why Indiana Jones is so performant, it still fakes a lot without path tracing.

On Unreal Engine 5 games and some indie developers own engines or even on some Unity games, real-time global illumination exists, yet some gamers yell that it's unoptimized because they don't even understand that they have global illumination. Heck, even Quake 2 RTX does path-tracing on GTX 1660 Super. I guess you are right, running RTGI on GTX is impossible.

You still don’t grasp the difference between software and hardware solutions…

Quake 2 is a non argument, have you seen how basic that game is? There is a reason it works on gtx gpu’s….

More complex games like indiana jones simply won’t run as you want them to on gtx gpu’s…

All this coping just because you are running 6 years behind

Well, at least you seem to get that different games could have different performance impact for using raytracing, but the basic global illumination in Indiana Jones isn't that complex, path tracing is complex, no matter which game, Quake 2 RTX is using path tracing.

Hellblade 2 lighting is complex and Steam Deck struggles with it more than with Indiana Jones, but it can be streamed from PC with GTX 1660 Super to Deck just fine because the low resolution.

[Mori Riden]

Escrito originalmente por gbuglyo:

Escrito originalmente por Cowboy:

I think it's worth remembering that Ray Tracing cards have been around for over six years at this point. It was only a matter of time before games released with hardware requirements like Indiana Jones and The Great Circle.

On the one hand, that's true. On the other hand, laptops equipped with GTX 1650 graphics cards are still being sold in stores, and people buying them may expect them to be capable of running new games, even if at low details/fps.

You've got to be going budget to get a 1650 in which case you will not be able to play any decent games anyway. Anything around £1000 for a Acer or Dell and you are now getting a i9 with RTX 4050. If you are going to spend less than £1000 on a laptop for gaming then you are wasting your money.