Auto-excavator digging down? Enough requests/complaints yet?

[steveman0]

The devs have previously stated that if they here enough requestions or complaints for a change then the idea gets a closer look. The idea of making the auto-excavator able to dig down has been one that has counfounded players since its first implementation. It just makes sense and yet the game does not allow it. I've previously stated my support for it, in addition to a similar change to lifts, in a previous thread: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/494631967657558072/

Since no change has come yet I've decided to dig up and highlight all of the support for the change to try to get the idea in motion. First a quick summary of why I feel the auto-excavator should dig down...

The game is about machines and logistics. Even the dev has previously stated that the player is meant to be insignificant in comparison to the machines he builds. The fortress is supposed to be important, the player less so. In this very regard the auto-excavator fails as it functions merely is a backup to the player as the primary tool for the job. Any progression the player must make must be done on his own and the machine fills in after words.

Given the game is one where the goal is to progress to ever greater depths, having a machine that players a central role in this effort simply makes sense as a number of players have shown. The auto-excavator should be a central machine to any fortress as the pillar to continued progression by unlocking greater depths not one that acts as cleanup to the players hard work.

Just how many people support this idea or think it's obvious? This many:

Myself: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/494631967657558072/

Chris: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/494631967657558072/#c494631967657731020

Dainsleif: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/494631967657558072/#c494631967657881982

sunnywiz: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/626329820705786408/

TheLostPenguin: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/626329820705786408/#c620703493336996660

GermanHerman: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/626329187002461723/

Disguy: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/626329187002461723/#c626329820635535882

[VH]ThaPear: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/626329187002461723/#c523897653318325513

Secret Story: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/496881136897731258/#c496881136897774274

Levi Let's Play!: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/496880503081612625/#c458605613387724529

[FR] Decal: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/496880503081612625/#c458605613396538495

lhetre: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/541907867786115983/#c541907867787197767

Oldlock: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/617329920706112809/#c617329920707605370

Lithorn: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/541906348048581020/#c541906348048679003

Prof. Hulk: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/648814395737711192/#c627457521178472223

harley9699: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/490123832543543035/#c490123938426327100

skorne_tetzu: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/648814395737711192/#c622954023412067641

NinjaKitsune56: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/648814395737711192/#c622954023412991100

Sask_Skittle: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/558755529534192988/#c624075567038643201

Devlah: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/558755529534192988/#c617330406658133058

whiter2501: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/527274088401570516/#c527274088403411092

Stormfox: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/527274088401570516/

Nekochan: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/523897277915574369/#c523897277917447600

CreepyD: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/523897277915574369/#c523897277921005071

Der Hexer: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/528398719812877073/#c527273452872926297

hmkagm: http://steamcommunity.com/app/254200/discussions/0/598198356187912970/#c530645446323629656

Anyone I quoted I welcome your added feedback or clarification of thoughts. I tried my best to get quotes that clearly demonstrated support for the idea of downward digging excavators but if you would rather me remove the quote feel free to let me know. I hope this will encourage more support of the idea. Feel free to add comments here or to my original thread.

[Prof. hulk]

i still do stand by what i said this machine pretty much counts as a mk2 in the digger machines but just like the 9000 it can't dig down hence the reason it isnt a mk2 (yet) but if more people voice out about this then we can start some real fortress making if the machines are made able to dig down

[Æl]

I realize the help file is wrong, and it's not hte only case where the helpfile is totally outdated, but the BFL can and does and has for some time (on the bleeding edge, at least) worked in all directions. You just have to actually account for its size. There is zero reason for any of this until the BFL is nerfed (which I don't think it should be, considering the time, power input, and the tier it takes to dig a decent vertical shaft-- 1 hr with four turbines dedicated on scarce power to get to -950, then another 2-3 hours making the shaft serviceable, then another 1-2 hrs setting up power lines down, conveyor lines/turrets up, etc..)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=600697133

[steveman0]

Originally posted by Sivuden:

I realize the help file is wrong, and it's not hte only case where the helpfile is totally outdated, but the BFL can and does and has for some time (on the bleeding edge, at least) worked in all directions. You just have to actually account for its size. There is zero reason for any of this until the BFL is nerfed (which I don't think it should be, considering the time, power input, and the tier it takes to dig a decent vertical shaft-- 1 hr with four turbines dedicated on scarce power to get to -950, then another 2-3 hours making the shaft serviceable, then another 1-2 hrs setting up power lines down, conveyor lines/turrets up, etc..)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=600697133

There are several problems with the BFL even with its ability to dig down. It is unlocked too late in the tech tree and costs far too much power to be utilized as a core machine for progression. You'll be well through T2 or even T3 before you could realistically run it fast enough to fill this role.

Digging down is a fundamental requirement for progression. As the game is primarily about building a unified fortress incorporating a machine into the core progression is simply a sensible idea. The current placement of the auto-excavator in the tech tree is perfect. The player is introduced to the idea of digging and navigating on his own and getting basic infrastructure setup. Then the auto-excavator is unlocked as a means to eliminate the tedium of endless digging by incorporating a new machine into the fortress design to do the job for him.

At least it would be like that but it never happens as the player is left digging endlessly on his own to install the auto-excavator at the wrong end of the shaft.

[Æl]

Originally posted by steveman0:

At least it would be like that but it never happens as the player is left digging endlessly on his own to install the auto-excavator at the wrong end of the shaft.

What? Seriously?

First off, the BFL only takes Intermediate miner 3 (really II (2) because srsly Arcas). This is 25 complex, 15 intermediate, and 5 simplified. That's 200 lithium, 120 iron, and 40 tin ingots. You can literally get this by digging a 1x2 shaft to ~ -150 and putting down some ore extractosr and powering them with a few PTG's on scarce mode. Time to dig: ~20 minutes to dig and lay a conveyor line plus a few turrets. The hard part is actually doing the research, which is accomplished through more PTG's and more coal veins.

Sure, it's not early game, but when you look at it the BFL is by no means an endgame or a 't3 only' thing. If you set up ten PTG's to power this on scarce, you can get 1 meter every 32 seconds. Digging to -120 would take a little over an hour, at which point now have a fancy 5x5 shaft going straight through everything in the way (including ore!) and you *didn't even have to pay attention to it* (unless you ran out of coal!).

If you farm a little and put down some coal enrichers, you half that time. If you throw on some solar panels too (it's at that point of progression) you reduce it even more. Build 20 PTG's running on coal enrichers and you get 8 seconds per meter, which gets you down to -600 (Biomass territory) in a mere 80 minutes. Digging that shaft by hand would not only result in many, many deaths due to the incredible world-tearing rifts DJ calls the toxic caverns, but also quite a bit longer than the BFL in this state.

Suffice it to say that even on Scarce power the BFL is by no means only viable end-game. In fact, I honestly think the power should be increased simply because of how little it takes for the benefits. Based on research, the BFL is by no means inaccessible even towards the end of the tech tree.

This game is, as you said, about building an integrated and well-engineered fortress with multiple machines doing the job for the player. This means that you automate things while going off and hunting bugs, exploring for new veins, crystals, or upgrading infrastructure-- a role which the BFL fits into rather well both vertically and horizontally. I hesistate to add, but outfitting a dug mineshaft is also no easy feat-- you can expect several more hours, if not a dozen, to completely set it up depending on your infrastructure needs.

[DDog]

ok... i for one would love to see the excavotor clear a shaft going down.. just putting in my vote

[Undead_Duckling]

Originally posted by Sivuden:

Sure, it's not early game, but when you look at it the BFL is by no means an endgame or a 't3 only' thing.

It might not be endgame, but it's takes far too long to unlock.

Even with the abilty to dig down (which it hopefully will finally get) the autoexcavator will still not be as good as the BFL for several reasons: BFL can dig through ore, dig sideways and has unlimited range in any direction.

[steveman0]

Originally posted by Sivuden:

Originally posted by steveman0:

At least it would be like that but it never happens as the player is left digging endlessly on his own to install the auto-excavator at the wrong end of the shaft.

What? Seriously?

First off, the BFL only takes Intermediate miner 3 (really II (2) because srsly Arcas). This is 25 complex, 15 intermediate, and 5 simplified. That's 200 lithium, 120 iron, and 40 tin ingots. You can literally get this by digging a 1x2 shaft to ~ -150 and putting down some ore extractosr and powering them with a few PTG's on scarce mode. Time to dig: ~20 minutes to dig and lay a conveyor line plus a few turrets. The hard part is actually doing the research, which is accomplished through more PTG's and more coal veins.

You are overlooking all of the research that leads up to it, the fact that the BFL itself is really expensive, and the massive energy cost of powering it. Even if you do rush the research (which will take a great deal of time longer than unlocking the AE which only requires 5 copper pods) you still have the matter of powering it which is a huge investment for an early game player especially factoring in the extra defenses required to deal with the increased threat generated compared to an AE.

Originally posted by Sivuden:

If you set up ten PTG's to power this on scarce...

This is NOT early game! Certainly not something that a player would be expected to build as a core part of game progression. Yes, it is possible to build and run a BFL but it certainly is far from efficient from doing so and that is a major problem.

[Demerzel]

DJarcas livestreaming on twtich so go there http://www.twitch.tv/djarcas

[Nekochan]

Beat that dead horse! :D

[Willis_35]

+1 I add my support for AE digging downwards. This also bridges a gap. The AE digging down is not perfect because it runs out of range every 64m. This makes it an awesome mid game fit for automation, but not quite yet a perfect system.

[CreepyD]

I'm with steveman0 on this one, there's a massive gap at the start of the game where it would fit perfectly allowing you to automatically but slowly build downwards.
More automation ftw.

[Neeneko]

Originally posted by Willis_35:

+1 I add my support for AE digging downwards. This also bridges a gap. The AE digging down is not perfect because it runs out of range every 64m. This makes it an awesome mid game fit for automation, but not quite yet a perfect system.

I think it is 256 now? Something like that.

Personally I am in the camp that would rather see the excavator and BFL have the same functionality/behavior but differ in terms of stats. So both being able to drill in all 6 directions, but the BFL having the wider path/higher power draw.

Maybe even add a T3 tool that can dig in an arc of some sort so we can get rid of those mountains with a bit less repetition.

[Theryc]

+1

It just seems a lot more logical. Perhaps Dj wants there to be a hassle with using it, but that just seems like unnecessary hoops to jump through. Personally, I'd prefer the option to go up or down, ideally.

[steveman0]

Originally posted by Neeneko:

Originally posted by Willis_35:

+1 I add my support for AE digging downwards. This also bridges a gap. The AE digging down is not perfect because it runs out of range every 64m. This makes it an awesome mid game fit for automation, but not quite yet a perfect system.

I think it is 256 now? Something like that.

Personally I am in the camp that would rather see the excavator and BFL have the same functionality/behavior but differ in terms of stats. So both being able to drill in all 6 directions, but the BFL having the wider path/higher power draw.

Just goes to show how much he uses it if he didn't know it was increased to 256m!

I agree with the idea of some overlap with the BFL. I would even suggest both be adjustable in size to an extent. The BFL still has the critical advantage of being able to punch through ore to distinguish it.

I see the two machines being able to work together quite well - the AE to efficiently clear rock and the BFL to clear ore at a slightly higher cost power cost. Maybe even incorporate the BFL as an addon module to the AE to consolidate the tools into one.

[Fallot]

Originally posted by Neeneko:

Originally posted by Willis_35:

+1 I add my support for AE digging downwards. This also bridges a gap. The AE digging down is not perfect because it runs out of range every 64m. This makes it an awesome mid game fit for automation, but not quite yet a perfect system.

I think it is 256 now? Something like that.

Personally I am in the camp that would rather see the excavator and BFL have the same functionality/behavior but differ in terms of stats. So both being able to drill in all 6 directions, but the BFL having the wider path/higher power draw.

Maybe even add a T3 tool that can dig in an arc of some sort so we can get rid of those mountains with a bit less repetition.

I agree here with Neeneko, all 6 directions for excavator would be cool.
I like to make 3x3 excavations in horizontal way to my drills.