Shotguns are not melee weapons

[ecjones1975]

People take shotguns hunting because they reach farther away than arms length. I could throw a shotgun farther than the in-game guns can reach.

[Lokian117]

While I entirely agree that this game as well as many others get shotgun range/damage dropoff wrong I really dont think they need to be changed. I play with 3 others and our shotgun user is the least experienced in games. They end up with more kills by a wide margin because the range of fighting in this game is very short and they are always 2 seconds from effective range at worst. This is also the reason why snipers are more useful for their ability to pen than they are for range.

Shotguns fill the range gap between melee and all other guns. Its stupid but unless the standard range of combat increases to our guns realistic effective ranges you will just have shotguns overlapping and being superior in every way compared to other weapons. Not really many "realistic" ways to give them downsides as IRL at their effective ranges the only reason we dont use them in place of other weapons is because they are considered too lethal or brutal. Technically not allowed to use them in many situations because they are a bit too good at their job.

Pretty much they are going to be unrealistically balanced in all games because any time they mirror their real life counterparts they are considered overpowered because thats what a real life shotgun is. And that sucks because we cant have nice things and every game RUINS MY DAMN SLUGS!

[esthergray]

Originally posted by Lokian117:

While I entirely agree that this game as well as many others get shotgun range/damage dropoff wrong I really dont think they need to be changed. I play with 3 others and our shotgun user is the least experienced in games. They end up with more kills by a wide margin because the range of fighting in this game is very short and they are always 2 seconds from effective range at worst. This is also the reason why snipers are more useful for their ability to pen than they are for range.

Shotguns fill the range gap between melee and all other guns. Its stupid but unless the standard range of combat increases to our guns realistic effective ranges you will just have shotguns overlapping and being superior in every way compared to other weapons. Not really many "realistic" ways to give them downsides as IRL at their effective ranges the only reason we dont use them in place of other weapons is because they are considered too lethal or brutal. Technically not allowed to use them in many situations because they are a bit too good at their job.

Pretty much they are going to be unrealistically balanced in all games because any time they mirror their real life counterparts they are considered overpowered because thats what a real life shotgun is. And that sucks because we cant have nice things and every game RUINS MY DAMN SLUGS!

I have to admit that they are darn good in Ark. Their range is much further than I was prepared for, although, they weren't always that good. I noticed a welcomed change a couple of years ago. Other than Ark, I've never seen a game that did this. And because of this I only use shotgun turrets since they reach a lot further.

[william_es]

Originally posted by Lokian117:

While I entirely agree that this game as well as many others get shotgun range/damage dropoff wrong

it's not "wrong", it just been heavily adjusted for game balance. Rifles would have a WAY greater effective range then they do in game... except, the game can't render targets out that far. Kind of a technical limit.

So if rifles have their range adjusted down, the other weapons need to be adjusted too. Can't have a shotgun that has 90% of the effective range of a rifle. That would make no sense at all.

It's all for game balancing. And in most games like this, everything is exaggerated (on purpose) to make the differences more apparent. Have a greater effect on mechanics. So the shotgun has a range about as long as you could throw a rock in real life. Shrug. Just is what it is.

[Pain Weasel]

Originally posted by william_es:

it's not "wrong", it just been heavily adjusted for game balance. Rifles would have a WAY greater effective range then they do in game... except, the game can't render targets out that far. Kind of a technical limit.

So if rifles have their range adjusted down, the other weapons need to be adjusted too. Can't have a shotgun that has 90% of the effective range of a rifle. That would make no sense at all.

It's all for game balancing. And in most games like this, everything is exaggerated (on purpose) to make the differences more apparent. Have a greater effect on mechanics. So the shotgun has a range about as long as you could throw a rock in real life. Shrug. Just is what it is.

I haven't seen anyone suggest a shotgun should have 90% the effective range of a rifle, that is a bit of a straw man argument. The issue is that it currently has the effective range only a bit more than a spear.

The damage fall off range of a shotgun shell is 4 meters, after that the damage drops. The range of a spear is 3.6 meters. That means a shotgun shell will be able to do max damage at a distance only 0.4 meters farther than a spear. I get adjusting ranges down because it is a game, but that is just silly.

Lets compare some other guns:

shotgun (all tiers with buckshot ammo): 4 fall off, 10 max
T0 pipe pistol: 12 fall off, 40 max
T3 SMG: 30 fall off, 65 max
T0 pipe machine gun: 34 fall off, 90 max
T3 M60: 58 fall off, 90 max
T0 pipe rifle: 50 fall off, 150 max
T3 sniper rifle: 80 fall off, 150 max

The shotgun has a max range only 1/4th that of the next worst gun in the game. Only 6.7% that of a rifle. That's a long way from 90%

Even if the range of the shotgun was doubled it would still be well below every other gun in the game. Additionally if the damage fall off distance was not increased, or only slightly increased, the damage in the 10m-20m range would be fairly low but it would be a much smoother decrease than going from 100% to 0 in only 6 meters.

The bottom line is that nobody is asking for shotguns to become sniper rifles, or even close to that, just a reasonable increase to the base range. There is plenty of room to increase the range without overlap as well and the game balance isn't likely to be destroyed if a shotgun can hit a target 20 m away rather than only 10 m.

[Dogmilk]

maybe, but outside of PVP (I've never really played pvp) and maybe horde night depending on your setup you're rarely shooting from further than 20m or so anyway given that most combat is indoors or in cities, and zombies tend to spawn in relatively close.

I'd argue that sniper rifles are generally more useless at the moment, though it is fun to max penetrator and use AP rounds to kill a group in a hallway with a single shot

[Plagen]

It's a balance thing and literally how every single other game with pvp and shotguns works shotguns. This video is a good explanation about why shotguns are how they are in games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5xDfIjjKQ&t=835s

[Crashtian]

"I don't like (Illogical game mechanic) because it's not how it works in real life" still going strong for best discussion generator on the steam forums.

[Pain Weasel]

Originally posted by Crashtian:

"I don't like (Illogical game mechanic) because it's not how it works in real life" still going strong for best discussion generator on the steam forums.

Yeah, its right up there with "I have nothing to add to the discussion so here is my attempt at snark"

[James]

Originally posted by Pain Weasel:

I haven't seen anyone suggest a shotgun should have 90% the effective range of a rifle, that is a bit of a straw man argument. The issue is that it currently has the effective range only a bit more than a spear.

The damage fall off range of a shotgun shell is 4 meters, after that the damage drops. The range of a spear is 3.6 meters. That means a shotgun shell will be able to do max damage at a distance only 0.4 meters farther than a spear. I get adjusting ranges down because it is a game, but that is just silly.

Lets compare some other guns:

shotgun (all tiers with buckshot ammo): 4 fall off, 10 max
T0 pipe pistol: 12 fall off, 40 max
T3 SMG: 30 fall off, 65 max
T0 pipe machine gun: 34 fall off, 90 max
T3 M60: 58 fall off, 90 max
T0 pipe rifle: 50 fall off, 150 max
T3 sniper rifle: 80 fall off, 150 max

The shotgun has a max range only 1/4th that of the next worst gun in the game. Only 6.7% that of a rifle. That's a long way from 90%

Even if the range of the shotgun was doubled it would still be well below every other gun in the game. Additionally if the damage fall off distance was not increased, or only slightly increased, the damage in the 10m-20m range would be fairly low but it would be a much smoother decrease than going from 100% to 0 in only 6 meters.

The bottom line is that nobody is asking for shotguns to become sniper rifles, or even close to that, just a reasonable increase to the base range. There is plenty of room to increase the range without overlap as well and the game balance isn't likely to be destroyed if a shotgun can hit a target 20 m away rather than only 10 m.

Good post. And to clarify for those that don't know, and also to put this in better perspective, each meter is only 1 block. So a spear range of 3.6 blocks is essentially the same distance as the effective range of a shotgun at 4 blocks. And to pile on a bit more here, the knuckles also have the same range as the spear does (3.6) and bare knuckle punch have a range of 2 blocks--1/2 the distance of a freaking shotgun.

I'm not looking for realism here, but at least try to make things make a little bit of sense is all.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by James:

Originally posted by Pain Weasel:

I haven't seen anyone suggest a shotgun should have 90% the effective range of a rifle, that is a bit of a straw man argument. The issue is that it currently has the effective range only a bit more than a spear.

The damage fall off range of a shotgun shell is 4 meters, after that the damage drops. The range of a spear is 3.6 meters. That means a shotgun shell will be able to do max damage at a distance only 0.4 meters farther than a spear. I get adjusting ranges down because it is a game, but that is just silly.

Lets compare some other guns:

shotgun (all tiers with buckshot ammo): 4 fall off, 10 max
T0 pipe pistol: 12 fall off, 40 max
T3 SMG: 30 fall off, 65 max
T0 pipe machine gun: 34 fall off, 90 max
T3 M60: 58 fall off, 90 max
T0 pipe rifle: 50 fall off, 150 max
T3 sniper rifle: 80 fall off, 150 max

The shotgun has a max range only 1/4th that of the next worst gun in the game. Only 6.7% that of a rifle. That's a long way from 90%

Even if the range of the shotgun was doubled it would still be well below every other gun in the game. Additionally if the damage fall off distance was not increased, or only slightly increased, the damage in the 10m-20m range would be fairly low but it would be a much smoother decrease than going from 100% to 0 in only 6 meters.

The bottom line is that nobody is asking for shotguns to become sniper rifles, or even close to that, just a reasonable increase to the base range. There is plenty of room to increase the range without overlap as well and the game balance isn't likely to be destroyed if a shotgun can hit a target 20 m away rather than only 10 m.

Good post. And to clarify for those that don't know, and also to put this in better perspective, each meter is only 1 block. So a spear range of 3.6 blocks is essentially the same distance as the effective range of a shotgun at 4 blocks. And to pile on a bit more here, the knuckles also have the same range as the spear does (3.6) and bare knuckle punch have a range of 2 blocks--1/2 the distance of a freaking shotgun.

I'm not looking for realism here, but at least try to make things make a little bit of sense is all.

I agree it's a very good post. And it convinced me that shotguns could have a bit more range.

But it must be done very carefully cause 80% of my fighting is inside POIs where the Targets distance is almost always quite low (10 meters or less usually). If shotguns can do full damage in most POI fighting settings, they'll outclass any other guns as their damage, aiming ease and ability to hit many targets are very strong.

They're already very very good in POIs. Without the poor range, I may exclusively use them in there and that would be a loss for the game (having an OP gun/spec).

[Rosomaha]

problem is shotguns are OP in IRL, basically shooting someone from 50 yards away with 11 9MM bullets at once, and slugs will tear someone in half.

[Pain Weasel]

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

Originally posted by James:

Good post. And to clarify for those that don't know, and also to put this in better perspective, each meter is only 1 block. So a spear range of 3.6 blocks is essentially the same distance as the effective range of a shotgun at 4 blocks. And to pile on a bit more here, the knuckles also have the same range as the spear does (3.6) and bare knuckle punch have a range of 2 blocks--1/2 the distance of a freaking shotgun.

I'm not looking for realism here, but at least try to make things make a little bit of sense is all.

I agree it's a very good post. And it convinced me that shotguns could have a bit more range.

But it must be done very carefully cause 80% of my fighting is inside POIs where the Targets distance is almost always quite low (10 meters or less usually). If shotguns can do full damage in most POI fighting settings, they'll outclass any other guns as their damage, aiming ease and ability to hit many targets are very strong.

They're already very very good in POIs. Without the poor range, I may exclusively use them in there and that would be a loss for the game (having an OP gun/spec).

That is sort of the reason I almost exclusively use machine guns. They are pretty much the best gun in nearly every situation.

While it is absolutely true that shotguns have the highest damage per shot, their low fire rate and pellet spread mean that most other guns are capable of doing more damage in any combat situation that lasts longer than 1 shot, or 2 shots in the case of the double barrel.

Machine guns do a bit less than half the damage per shot but fire about 6x as quickly. An auto shotgun has a dps of about 116, assuming all pellets hit. An M60 has a dps of 344, plus having nearly pinpoint accuracy, a much large magazine and 14.5 times the damage fall off.

There is no situation where I would prefer to have a shotgun the way things stand now.
Well, except the ability to crash through walls in POIs like the freaking Juggernaut. In my opinion that is the single saving feature of shotguns.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by Pain Weasel:

That is sort of the reason I almost exclusively use machine guns. They are pretty much the best gun in nearly every situation.

While it is absolutely true that shotguns have the highest damage per shot, their low fire rate and pellet spread mean that most other guns are capable of doing more damage in any combat situation that lasts longer than 1 shot, or 2 shots in the case of the double barrel.

Machine guns do a bit less than half the damage per shot but fire about 6x as quickly. An auto shotgun has a dps of about 116, assuming all pellets hit. An M60 has a dps of 344, plus having nearly pinpoint accuracy, a much large magazine and 14.5 times the damage fall off.

There is no situation where I would prefer to have a shotgun the way things stand now.
Well, except the ability to crash through walls in POIs like the freaking Juggernaut. In my opinion that is the single saving feature of shotguns.

Just curious (as I've never researched the damage mechanic numbers) Did you factor in the multi target damage for the shotgun dps ? I regularly observed I can down 2 or 3 targets with one headshot if they're in line with a shotty. I never observed that with a machine gun tho. It looks like the same pellets can hit many targets, but I don't really know. All this is using basic ammo.

In POIs, I tend to use MG from far to med range then sometime switch to shotty in close range when I'm in a shokepoint and they're bunched together.

As you said, MG are the best dps for a single target, that's for sure in my experience.

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by Pain Weasel:

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

I agree it's a very good post. And it convinced me that shotguns could have a bit more range.

But it must be done very carefully cause 80% of my fighting is inside POIs where the Targets distance is almost always quite low (10 meters or less usually). If shotguns can do full damage in most POI fighting settings, they'll outclass any other guns as their damage, aiming ease and ability to hit many targets are very strong.

They're already very very good in POIs. Without the poor range, I may exclusively use them in there and that would be a loss for the game (having an OP gun/spec).

That is sort of the reason I almost exclusively use machine guns. They are pretty much the best gun in nearly every situation.

While it is absolutely true that shotguns have the highest damage per shot, their low fire rate and pellet spread mean that most other guns are capable of doing more damage in any combat situation that lasts longer than 1 shot, or 2 shots in the case of the double barrel.

Machine guns do a bit less than half the damage per shot but fire about 6x as quickly. An auto shotgun has a dps of about 116, assuming all pellets hit. An M60 has a dps of 344, plus having nearly pinpoint accuracy, a much large magazine and 14.5 times the damage fall off.

There is no situation where I would prefer to have a shotgun the way things stand now.
Well, except the ability to crash through walls in POIs like the freaking Juggernaut. In my opinion that is the single saving feature of shotguns.

Shotguns have their built in stun, which is fantastic crowd control. A single point in Boomstick gives you a six second stun, so I find it's nearly always worth dropping at least a single point in there if I'm using a shotgun as part of my loadout. I usually do.

I've even played around with just using a shotgun as a crowd control weapon and putting a duckbill mod in it, because I've gone with automatic weapons or handguns so I've already got something that kills well at close ranges. It works pretty well.

[Ragequit Inc.]

...and "sniper rifles" have an effective range of about 100m/300ft..? (because of the rendering range) A fraction of the range that actual snipers do. So... It all ain't how it all isn't.