The armor bonuses are all over the place and some work properly and some don't

[Grumpy Old Guy]

So in a different conversation another player and myself figured out that the mining gloves are not actually giving the listed 50% bonus to ore damage.

A mod was kind enough the tell me this is how all the armor bonuses work as far as the math is concerned the 50% isn't added to the total but to a different part of the calculations which makes the effective bonuses much less than their listed values, which makes sense but now I'm curious as to what the actual benefit of these armor pieces really is and how much a boost they actually provide.

Testing so far just the +60% damage from the preacher gloves. This is on a fresh character with no magazines read and no skill points used and targeting base zombies with no armor.

with a magnum that does listed 77.5 damage I am consistently doing 77 damage to enemy zombies (debug mode I can see the hp and turn off their AI).

I put the gloves on and now I am consistently hitting for 116. 60% bonus should be 123, so the real bonus is closer to 50% with no other modifiers.

Level up to 300, put 5/5 points into handguns, now I have (supposedly) a 50% bonus to magnum damage. Notable my listed damage with the gun is still 77.5 so it appears that number is your base damage explicitly.

Now a 50% increase of 77.5 I should be doing 116.25 damage per shot.

How much do I do? Consistently 110, which is about 42%, not 50%.

Okay so the skill bonuses are off.

How does armor factor into this?

Well with the armor and the 5/5 skill my total percentage bonus is 110%. So if it's additive I should be hitting for 162.75 and if it's multiplicative it should be even higher.

So how much do I actually do? 149, repeatedly 149 damage.

And we can see from the numbers that 110 damage with the perks and no gloves, when we put the gloves on if it's actually 60% we should be hitting for 176, and we're only hitting for 149. That's about a 35% bonus, not 60%.

In short, the preacher gloves give less of a bonus than they say they do and the more bonuses you have to something the lower their bonus becomes.

The really strange part is that with no skills the gloves added 39 damage.
With the gun skills, once I put the gloves on they still add the exact same 39 damage.

So it looks like they add some arbitrary percentage of explicitly the base damage and don't interact with other modifiers at all. It seems like the gun bonus and the glove bonus are totally independent and have no interaction at all. Which begs the question how does recog fit into this and does it also only work off base damage? I'll have to test it later.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

So the mining gloves and preacher gloves (and I expect every glove that increases damage probably shares this flaw) don't give you as much of a bonus as you'd expect.

Nerd helmet gives exactly 20% more xp. Base zombie kill is 400, helmet its 480.
Learning elixir gives exactly 20% by itself, 400 to 480 as expected.

How much do the two together give you? 560. Exactly 40% more xp. So the XP bonuses at least are additive and work exactly as they say.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Now mining gloves.

Base steel pickaxe with no bonuses and no skill points. Says it does 148.3 block damage.
Does exactly 148 block damage.

Now with the gloves (which should be +50% or in this case 222 damage) we hit the block and do... 190? That's 29%, almost half of the listed 50% bonus. And we haven't done anything to the base block damage so this percentage is flat out a lie even at the very basic level and it's notably different from the preacher gloves which at least got close at baseline to their listed bonus.

Lets try with some bonuses added on. 5/5 miner 69er should give me 150% damage baseline. So with 148 as my starting number I should see 370 damage if that number is accurate. This is just 5/5 miner with no gloves. How much do I do?

275? That's an 86% bonus roughly, it's way off even the baseline is way off. It's a full 60% less damage than it should be.

So how does it work with the gloves? Gloves and 5/5 miner I hit for 318. These bonuses together should add up to +200% extra damage, meaning I should be doing 444 and I'm doing 25% less than that for some reason. Even the base damage of 275 with no gloves putting the gloves on only added 43 block damage, which is about a 16% increase, nowhere near 50%.

So yeah, block damage bonuses are all over the place.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Ok well maybe the harvest bonuses work?

Lets try the mining helmet.

Baseline with nothing I get 105 iron for breaking one iron ore block.
Slap on the helmet and I get 136. Exactly a 30% bonus. Works just as it should.

Lets see what mother load does to it. 5/5 should give me a 100% bonus, so I should get 210 iron. I test it and get exactly 210. Great mother load does exactly what it says it does.

So how about both? Well total bonus is +130% so I should get 241. I test it and I get exactly 241.

So the mining gloves don't do what they say nor do they stack with the bonuses from miner 69er correctly, but the mining helmet DOES and it DOES stack EXACTLY as it should with the bonuses from mother load.

[TheChoccoBiccy09]

Yeah it’s weird how all these bonuses apply and what not. There’s so many ways that they can apply too that it just gives me a headache thinking how much damage I’ll do to a block with my mods, tool type, perks, skill books read, armours equipped all contributing to it.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Yeah in my testing it looks like the weapon skills/bonuses and the gloves that support them consistently do less than they say they do.

If it says 50% boost it's closer to 40. The gloves seem to add a flat amount of damage, that is a percentage of the base damage, and it has nothing to do with extra damage from skills at all it has no interaction.

Nerd helmet and xp pots do exactly what they say they do.

Miner 69er and miner gloves don't do anywhere near what they say they do and the higher your bonus is supposed to be the less it actually helps. Just using the gloves alone gives you a pretty decent bonus, but it doesn't scale with other bonuses at all. The miner 69er perk is outright a lie and never gets even remotely close to 150% more block damage even tested completely by itself the highest it gets is actually roughly 90% at max level not 150. The only thing I can figure is maybe some of these ores have some kind of innate damage resistance but that doesn't make sense because at baseline with no other factors the ore takes exactly the block damage listed on a pickaxe which if it had some kind of resistance it wouldn't.

Which is even bloody stranger when you test it and realize mother load and the mining helmet (which are both parts of the same set of armor and in the exact same skill tree) work totally differently and do exactly what they say they do and stack exactly as they should.

These numbers are a mess and I suspect all the weapons are equally flawed.

[Mithrandir]

Impressive work, Grumpy.

May I suggest you also post that on their official forum ? It seems like different formulas were used, maybe by different devs and I doubt many (or any) of us have done this type of deep testing in 1.0 EXP versions.

Ofc, maybe they're aware of that already, but if they don't, it could be useful to post that over there.

[FreZZy]

Also assasin boots work weird. You become less visible when sprint-crouching than just crouching.

[Mardoin69]

Is it possible, in the places you're expecting an additive bonus damage, it's actually only calculating the base damage values instead of the added totals? What I mean is, say for example, with no skills, perks, or mods, the base damage to something was 100. Then adding something that gives an additional 50% damage bonus (50% of 100 = 50 for a total 150) together with something else may not be calculating how you'd expect. Like in this example, adding another factor / item that would give say another 50% isn't actually calculating 50% of the 150 but instead, 50% of the base value. So, then it would be a 100 base + 50 from first item and then 50 from the second item for a total 200. I just used simple round numbers to make the example easy. Anyway, a person might of expected the second item to take 50% of the subtotal 150 but, it's not... just the 50% of the base value. Just wondering if you calculated both ways in your testings.

[Ragequit Inc.]

Originally posted by Mardoin69:

Is it possible, in the places you're expecting an additive bonus damage, it's actually only calculating the base damage values instead of the added totals? What I mean is, say for example, with no skills, perks, or mods, the base damage to something was 100. Then adding something that gives an additional 50% damage bonus (50% of 100 = 50 for a total 150) together with something else may not be calculating how you'd expect. Like in this example, adding another factor / item that would give say another 50% isn't actually calculating 50% of the 150 but instead, 50% of the base value. So, then it would be a 100 base + 50 from first item and then 50 from the second item for a total 200. I just used simple round numbers to make the example easy. Anyway, a person might of expected the second item to take 50% of the subtotal 150 but, it's not... just the 50% of the base value. Just wondering if you calculated both ways in your testings.

This is somewhat what I was thinking. As another example, maybe the base block damage is against stone and the different ores have different multipliers. (in my current game, I'm oneshotting stone and coal, but not iron or lead, for example)

(this is a very crude idea/example, but I'm busy playing atm :)

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Originally posted by Ragequit Inc.:

Originally posted by Mardoin69:

Is it possible, in the places you're expecting an additive bonus damage, it's actually only calculating the base damage values instead of the added totals? What I mean is, say for example, with no skills, perks, or mods, the base damage to something was 100. Then adding something that gives an additional 50% damage bonus (50% of 100 = 50 for a total 150) together with something else may not be calculating how you'd expect. Like in this example, adding another factor / item that would give say another 50% isn't actually calculating 50% of the 150 but instead, 50% of the base value. So, then it would be a 100 base + 50 from first item and then 50 from the second item for a total 200. I just used simple round numbers to make the example easy. Anyway, a person might of expected the second item to take 50% of the subtotal 150 but, it's not... just the 50% of the base value. Just wondering if you calculated both ways in your testings.

This is somewhat what I was thinking. As another example, maybe the base block damage is against stone and the different ores have different multipliers. (in my current game, I'm oneshotting stone and coal, but not iron or lead, for example)

(this is a very crude idea/example, but I'm busy playing atm :)

I thought that but then I swing the pick at iron and did the exact base block damage in damage so it's not that unless the bonuses don't scale correctly against iron/lead but that's not what the data leads me to believe. I think a lot of the multipliers are just straight up not working and some of the percentages are just wrong.

[Grumpy Old Guy]

Originally posted by Mardoin69:

Is it possible, in the places you're expecting an additive bonus damage, it's actually only calculating the base damage values instead of the added totals? What I mean is, say for example, with no skills, perks, or mods, the base damage to something was 100. Then adding something that gives an additional 50% damage bonus (50% of 100 = 50 for a total 150) together with something else may not be calculating how you'd expect. Like in this example, adding another factor / item that would give say another 50% isn't actually calculating 50% of the 150 but instead, 50% of the base value. So, then it would be a 100 base + 50 from first item and then 50 from the second item for a total 200. I just used simple round numbers to make the example easy. Anyway, a person might of expected the second item to take 50% of the subtotal 150 but, it's not... just the 50% of the base value. Just wondering if you calculated both ways in your testings.

I thought of that but the thing is even the baseline tests for some of these are wrong, and by some I mean most.

The miner gloves for example on a fresh pick with no other bonuses to speak of the 50% bonus actually gives only 29% or so. Can't be a stacking issue if the outright basic bonuses with nothing else on them are wrong.

And I also question how most of the bonuses I tested are off. Basic weapon skill bonuses were off across the board, individual armor damage bonuses were off too.

Weapons skills say 50% at max level but the actual bonus is closer to 40%, armor across the board says 60% but it's actually closer to 50% and the more bonuses you have the more the percentages are off.

The worse being miner69er, it's off by a full 60% of what it says it does.

[votadc]

Sounds like a bug, can't be wad.

[rancidgnome]

I would report your findings as a bug.

[MoistGamer]

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

Impressive work, Grumpy.

May I suggest you also post that on their official forum ? It seems like different formulas were used, maybe by different devs and I doubt many (or any) of us have done this type of deep testing in 1.0 EXP versions.

Ofc, maybe they're aware of that already, but if they don't, it could be useful to post that over there.

Yeah post it on the forums of the people who should have been refining and testing those metrics for 11 years. Haha kidding the fake RPG skill stuff has only been out for 6 years fine, 1,900 days.

I didn't know "we employ 50 people now at TFP" counted forum goers as bug testers. Makes sense now.

Sarcasm aside Grumps this is a nice post and you should go put it on the forums where someone will read it and take it seriously crap on your face for not telling them their feces smells nice. While youre there you can reply to one of AdamWasteHeads posts that have a thousand exclamation points after each sentence

I always figured the percentages were a bit wonky but never delved into it as you have!

[Duke H. Vytantis]

i thought there was some stuff off with these bonuses & it made no sense how the %values would work.